Resale Overprice (foreal)

Doesn't matter where you buy it from. If you do see it on the aftermarket for $250, now you know it's not a "jacked-up" price. That was my point. Now, see, you haven't been injured at all, so please nix the sad violin-music.

 

Do I hate secondary market prices? Sometimes.

Do I think they're justified? Sometimes.

But a lot of times they aren't. That's something that gets a tad bit ignored as well. I've seen some people's markup value way more than the going rate should be. I know people who buy LE items just so they can make a profit on the resell. And I know they are doing that. However, that's the way things work in the world. You can't control what other people do, and whilst scalping tickets at a concert maybe illegal buying a doll for resell as far as I know isn't. This is a definitely a hobby where patience does matter. And if you really want something you'll pay for it. So whilst seeing some of the stuff that goes on makes me shake my head, I simply don't let it concern me. While that's kind of a nonchalant attitude, there's really no either way to be. There's no way to police things, and sometimes the second market price really is a pretty close approximation for what the price should be. This is hobby requires money, time, effort, and research. Part of that research is knowing what the second hand price of something should be, which Den of Angels makes easier now that selling threads are archived instead of deleting. Ideally the sellers too shouldn't be altering the threads, so you get an idea.

 

So far, it just looks like LE dolls, Soom and Volks seem to have some high asking prices on the secondary market. Soom is extremely popular and so is Volks - with some beautiful sculpts. I really think if you love the doll; then just go for it.

Personally, I am finding that most people here on DoA are very fair with their asking price and very clear of their definition of the doll and it's condition. Many are more than willing to work with you on a layaway plan. I find myself thankful to be meeting lots of wonderful, helpful and truthful people on the forum. For the most part, I think most sellers have good intentions with their dolls and I agree with Anoniemouse (above); a big part of this hobby is research, research, research and there is plenty of information here that can guide you.

 

Well, reselling a doll that you can't buy new anymore obviously adds a good chunk to the price, and if that doll is very popular of course they'll want more for it (it's a common rule of selling things, even if the item itself isn't any more special than another one, high demand makes it worth more) if it's good as new (as in, the resin hasn't yellowed, at least not very much, no cracks, very few scratches) that'll bump the price up too, since a doll you can't get new would be difficult to find in factory condition. A custom faceup adds to the price as well, especially if it's good. So in the end, it's understandable to double or even triple the price, but only under certain conditions. When you sell (or, in this case, resell) things, you have to take into account a lot of points that will lower or raise the price, so it really depends on the condition of the doll.

 

I'm going to half-echo Anoniemouse's sentiments; there are quite a few people who are in the habit of purchasing limited dolls and articles specifically for the chance to sell them when they are no longer available at after-market prices. That's scalping, pure and simple, and no matter how distasteful the majority of collectors find it, it happens, and it happens more than anyone would care to admit... But the debate material is narrow when it comes to scalping. It's not allowed here - it is not permitted for a member to purchase a limited doll/outfit/whatever and immediately resell it on the DoA marketplace once it is in their possession simply to make a quick few hundred dollars in profit. However, there's nothing stopping people from doing it elsewhere, and there's nothing stopping people from buying a limited and holding on to it for a few months before reselling to the same end. At the end of the day, scalping is not actually illegal; it can be viewed as distasteful and dishonest, but it is not against the law to buy an object, then sell it. Some people rely on scalpers to get a hold of things they can no longer get a hold of - there will always be someone to buy what scalpers are selling, because they wouldn't be scalping something no one wanted. It's an endless circle. I'm not trying to defend scalpers, but facts are facts, no matter how unfortunate they are for some.

On a more debatable note, yes, sometimes the after-market prices for certain dolls can grow to mind-boggling proportions. But are all of them unjustified? I hardly think so. Some of the dolls with the largest ticketed prices are so rare they're rarely seen in someone's possession, let alone for sale. If there are 5 of one doll and 50 collectors want one... The price is going to be exponentially larger in proportion. The demand is too much higher than the supply, and that drives the price upwards.

Offer someone 500 dollars for an SD-17 Williams, even without his outfit. Hell, just for his body. See what they say. Maybe they'll get a kick out of it.

Now, I've seen instances where the asking prices for standard-release Luts Delf dolls, which are around 450-500 dollars new directly from Luts, are in excess of 600 dollars. This price almost always comes down drastically, because no one is willing to pay 650 dollars for a doll they can get brand-new for substantially less. But while the price of the 650 dollar standard Lishe may seem astronomical to a buyer, that's not to say the seller isn't within their rights to ask whatever they want for her. Actually facilitating a sale is rather unlikely, unless there has been customization done by a highly sought-after customizer (mods, face-ups, and things of that nature from hard-to-commission artists can easily increase the value of a doll, for the same reasons a limited doll increases in value - you can't easily get one otherwise). But that seller could ask a thousand dollars for their standard Lishe, and no one could say jack about it.

Now if that same seller was claiming their price tag was justified because their standard Lishe is actually a rare limited, in an effort to dupe unknowing persons into buying it at that price, that would be grounds for a little outrage. But if that's not the case, and the doll is being described truthfully, the seller can ask for whatever amount they wish to. No one has to buy it; it isn't very likely to sell at that price; but if they want to, they can try.​

 

That's not scalping. It's marking up the price significantly, but it's not scalping. Somebody trying to sell their used car for twice what they paid isn't a scalper. Scalpers try to control prices by doing things like getting as many copies of something as they can. Scalpers do their best to hijack what people want and hold it hostage, as it were. One seller charging a huge price on the aftermarket in one instance does not, to my mind, a scalper make.

On a side note, I've yet to work out what "foreal" means.

 

Sellers can 'set' whatever price they want. My point is that, if there is EVEN ONE SINGLE buyer who will pay the $2000, whether through auction or not, then the price reflects demand.

 

We shouldn't forget some people pay a lot of custom charges and shippingcost, which influences sellers to sell their dolls for a little more. If someone from the US asks 800$ for a FCS doll I would say it's good price but if someone from the EU asks the same price than the person from the EU sells their FCS doll for a great price. So automatically I would go for the person from EU. But if the person from the US offers extra's or the doll has a great face up that compensate for the extra costs than I would carefully think about the options.

Either way these days if ye wanna save a penny ye have to review all the options.

Remember the old days were yahoojp stuff sold for higher prices on the secondary market because of the shoppingservice price.
Now that doesn't happen as much as in the old days even though the yen is stronger now making yahoojp items more expensive :s. So you'd think it would influence the secondary market price even more but that didn't happen cause there so many more options available.

 

No that really is scalping. Well, it's more timed defined less "control". It's more than just asking an obscene amount for a doll. But for instance, let's say I bought Carrie Underwood tickets, and I know I'm not going to go, in fact I'm going to turn around and sell them on Craiglist for twice what I paid. That's scalping. Even if I don't buy multiple copies. Basically, scalping comes into play with the length of time someone has something isn't really significant. *but* The thing is that it's so borderline on what is and what isn't scalping. Because lots of times it's nearly impossible to get some Volks Dolls in some countries, so on some level someone is providing a sort service to someone else, and there usually is a markup price that would be a profit. Hence, it gets kind of "gray".

From Webster's Dictionary

 

If you're simply buying a doll to turn around a jack up the price to make a profit...... No. This is NOT RIGHT! I feel that if someone were to do this, you're pretty much taking advantage of others who actually would really like the doll, enjoy it, and give it a good home.

Now, if you bought a doll, didn't bound with it, and sold it +6 months (or more or less, whatever) after you got it for a higher price, then that's fine. As long as some time has passed for the value of the doll to go up, that's justified.

 

Coming into this from other dorky collecty-stuff hobbies, I've been startled both by the number of people who think rare, considered-desirable items shouldn't be sold secondhand for more than their original price (the really strange part is that sometimes it's the sellers!), AND by the number of people who think they should get what they originally paid for any item they're selling, despite: damage (sometimes extensive!)
wear
missing pieces
amateur modifications unlikely to have wider appeal
botched and incomplete modifications
unpopularity of the item
brand new ones still being available to buy from the original company (!?!)

It's just weird. I mean, you'd get a few people expecting either of those things anywhere, because some people will always expect things should naturally be in their favor. But it just seems so oddly common with ABJDs.

 

So if "scalping" is purely defined by "high markup", then explain the acceptance of shopping-services. Paying hundred-dollar fees at Rinkya is fine, but the same hundred-dollar markup on a sold-out LE doll should be shunned if the increase is chosen by the seller?

The big online ticket agencies that I buy legitimate concert-tickets from refuse to be called "scalpers", and they are actually not scalpers.... even though I am certainly tempted to employ that term every time, for buying up those blocks of tickets and then charging me so much more than that ticket's face value. The markup is hair-raising, but that doesn't make the agency actual scalpers. My own personal outrage might make me speak in hyperbole, but it cannot change the definition of a word. Which is what I always hear happening in these doll-discussions. "Scalper" now seems to mean "any seller who charges more than I want to pay".

 

I fully agree with you there, Jenny. That's what this whole thread seems to have turned into. "OMG THAT'S SO MUCH MORE QQQQQ SCALPER." I paid substantially more for my doll in layaway than technically he's worth. But the level of customization that has been done to him is amazing. The mark-up was well-warranted.

 

leXis wrote:

And that is how it is in a free market. Tada!

 

You said it! I've never seen another hobby-related forum with such an apparent misunderstanding of how the free-market economy and the value system works. I have never understood how people can expect to recoup 100% of their purchase price (including shipping, customs, etc) for a non-limited, older, yellowed, chipped-faceup standard-model anything. Not when you can get a brand-new one from the company for the same price (or possibly less, given currency adjustments).

When selling something still readily available, folks really need to distance themselves from their personal attachment for an item and look strictly at the fair Market price for such an item. No matter how much someone may love their Standard, things like breakage, yellowing and just plain age are going to lower the value.

The potential buyer is nowhere near as bonded to the doll as the seller, and is probably looking strictly at if buying the standard from the MP outweights buying a new one straight from the company. Unless price savings are significant, I'm not sure how the 2nd-hand would win out. It baffles me when I see them going for above-retail for the same sculpt.

Not that there's anything at all wrong with *trying* to recoup *all* the costs you paid with buying a doll. I'm just saying that it's probably not going to happen, and that you're probably going to have to take a loss, especially the way things are today.

Few people out there are going to pay new prices for a not-new item + pay for Your EMS + pay for THEIR shipping (+ pay for the paypal fees the seller is probably demanding to recoup Every. Single. Penny.)

That kind of mentality seriously blows my mind.

P.S. Rarer, in-demand, no-longer-available things are going to command higher prices. That's just how life works. But I've already beaten that horse to death elsewhere.

P.P.S. This may be tangental, but the more I think about it, the more I think emotional attachment factors into a sale way more than it should. I have seen a lot of posts where people will say "After much hard deliberation, I have decided I am selling my beloved Phineas (using my own dolls as an example, here)."

Once you've made the decision to sell, "my beloved Phineas" should really be "my Luts Abadon, from 2008, with mild yellowing and chipped facep". I understand that people are attached to their dolls (some way more than others), but once the decision has been made to sell, that attachment really, really needs to be put aside.

 

I'm a little confused....what does the time frame have to do with anything? Even concert tickets are immune to time, assuming it was a good concert. Think of how many "I'm selling tickets from this awesome 1969 concert" auctions you've seen on eBay. Would those auctions be scalping too?

 

I'm going to assume you weren't specifically speaking to me. But to go on what you said, I would consider the ticketing agency a scapler except that I'm pretty sure they went through some legality to get the rights to do what they did from the actually ticket sellers. Unfortunately. Otherwise you could get them out of business. Whilst I agree that in doll terms "Scapler" does tend to get used with "The doll is too high" which isn't right at all. That doesn't mean that someone isn't scalping in the doll hobby either. Shopping services are acceptable only because many can't get the dolls any other way. That doesn't necessarily make them legal, but... Proxy's are Proxy's And technically in most shopping services case, you're paying for the service not the actually item, and since they can prove that anyway... One of the major problems with this community is that some people don't know the actually price of items. Sometimes they really are that high and big price tags are fair. An SDC Volks Renee anywhere in the 2000 range for instance is more than fair probably, I'm shooting it a bit low, but I'm making a point. But if someone enters the current Volks lottery for an SDC Gretel and then turns around and sells it for 1600 would you consider that to be good business? Wouldn't that be scalping? I mean it's almost like some people in this community are afraid to use the term as well. Sure someone maybe daft enough to pay 1600 for Gretel, but that doesn't mean that's fair price, and that doesn't make that good business, especially when the original purchaser of the doll never intended to keep said doll in the first place. To reinterate what I said before, good research is invaluable. *shrugs* I consider it the job of the buyer to know what is and what isn't a good price. If they think the price is unfair, well don't buy it. ^^;;

 

I think it's more the attitude behind selling the doll; doing it specifically to make a huge profit, or selling it because you decide you just don't want it anymore and you happen to be able to get a higher price than you paid. Both I think are a little ridiculous, I can't imagine selling a doll for more than I paid unless I'm including a lot of accessories (clothes, wigs, eyes... stuff that generally can cost a bit anyway).

 

I think it depends on the doll's popularity, quality and availability.

I do not think this is an immoral thing to do especially if the doll is very rare to come by,

For example, Dollshe Bermanns are very rare to come across since they are not being produced anymore and are very popular with some collectors and because of these factors they can come at a much higher price then they were originally paid for.

 

i personally don't think this is a question of right and wrong. dolls are luxury items. it's not like it's the grocery stores selling all available food for a price only a few people can afford.