Resale Overprice (foreal)

I think 'fairness' should be defined as market price when demand and supply meet at the time you buy it. For my self, I always try to buy dolls at market price as much as I could (since, for some item, I really want it so bad that I have to pay higher than market price for the available one on the market at the time (no one buying it coz it’s off market price)) I think most Japanese/foreigner shoppers in Y!J are very good at this. Most of the cases it seems like they know the price range very well that the price for each item end up quite similar for each period of time except for OOAK face up by famous artist which can go up to God know where (I saw one around 2M Yen) But I still think it's fair though.

However, I don’t think it is fair at all to speak about people who put the price that they want to sell that it is too high and that they are making profits out of other people’s pocket. If you are not okay with the price, pl refrain for buying it. It's not foods/clothes/medicines. I call this fairness ^_^

 

Dolls aren't the housing market--they're really not. If someone pays to much, they probably won't be able to recoup their costs if they want to sell later, but that's all that's going to happen. The hobby isn't going to actually crumble, because some people can't get their money back--honestly, it isn't always possible to tell down the road what a doll is going to be worth. Things go in and out of popularity, and as these are luxury items they are also affected by things like a down economy. You can pay a fair price for a doll now and it's still not a guarantee that you will be able to get back the money you put in, but the hobby's not come to an end because of it.

I agree that sometimes people don't have all the information they need to make good decisions, but that is up to them to fix. If people are going to buy dolls (especially LEs) off the secondary market then they really NEED to do some research to know what kind of deal they're getting and what they feel comfortable paying. Don't get me wrong, I hate to see people get ripped off or scammed, but this is something they have to take responsibility for because the info's out there but if they don't ask about it or look themselves they're never going to find it. It's the same in any hobby or buying any big ticket item--you have to use common sense.

Actually, those prices don't sound that bad. But going with your concept as a whole, prices are determined largely by supply and demand. Every collectible hobby is like this, and you cannot expect people to only charge what they paid for the doll. That's not how these things work. How much is actually too much, is up to the individual to determine after they've done some thinking and homework.

You aren't being rude, but I think your expectations are a little unrealistic. As I said before I love these dolls and enjoy the community greatly. But sometimes people in the community expect special treatment because they're part of "the community." The community is good about providing new people with help and information, alerting each other of scammers and bootleggers which is great, and to me the sign of a healthy community--but, it's still a hobby and not a charitable organization. Not everyone who is making a profit on a doll is actually a scammer, and sellers should be able to set whatever price they like, just as buyers can decide not to pay what seems like a ridiculous amount. These are dolls, not food. With necessary items like food, people have no choice but to buy, with dolls everyone has the choice to hold off for a better deal.

I have bought a car--I asked for advice from someone I trust and did research. No one should buy a home or a car without doing research first. If people need to find help to do that (and I fully understand--I needed help finding a car), then they need to find someone they can trust to ask for help. I'm not trying to be harsh here, really I'm not, but if people don't do that then they are setting themselves up for problems even if the seller is basically honest.

It's not that I'm unsympathetic, just realistic. You're making something (the price of dolls) very personal, when it is in fact very impersonal, which is why people have to look after themselves.

Not criminally wrong like you seem to feel it is. I'm sorry, but you're taking things waaay too far. Pretty lies? Really? I sleep fine, and I don't hurt people. I will help folks if I can, but they still have to take responsibility for their own actions, and you still can't expect people to keep the prices low just because the buyers are "in the hobby". While I don't agree with everything you said, I was ok with your post until the last bit here (in other words, now your being rude). You really need to take a step back and get some perspective on this.

 

I'm agreeing with Taco's comments here and would like to add:

1)Not everyone selling Heliot's in the marketplace bought then with the intention of selling on, i did a split and then decided to sell the body and head (i actually went with good prices like $350 for the body but that's beside the point) when the wait was just TOO long and i kept getting told different shipping dates, i lost interest in the doll and i stick by my decision.

2)I purchased a tanning Lishe for about $1700 when they sold out at Luts (for about $500) this was several years ago, so things haven't really changed, its supply and demand, I wanted the doll and was prepared to pay the price. When i recently re-sold her i actually didn't do too badly as the dollar is so much stronger than when i purchased her, i was prepared to take a little loss as i've enjoyed her for several years.

I don't think the Soom MD are over-hyped, they are very original and at the end of the day, people love what they love. As a luxury item you have the choice to buy or not to buy and as with any major purchase you should put the research in before you buy (or as was the case with my Lishe i knew i was paying over the odds and didn't care) If someone was overcharging for basic necessities like food or water, then that i would consider wrong and immoral.

 

I voted no because in general I don't really like this practice when the seller adds an outrageous amount (and I mean almost double and more) that they can't really justify other than trying to make a fat profit on the side. It seems a little..arseholic... but I guess that's how the world works.
I don't mind them adding a certain amount if they had to pay a chunk of money to customs if the doll was shipped from abroad. I understand if they want to cover that cost.

 

As a non BJD owner, I feel a slight tinge seeing the price tags of the dolls I would like to own. But as an artist, I understand the valuation of things that are collectible in nature versus items that are given economic value like real estate and automobiles. Law of supply and demand do not necessarily apply to this hobby something like art is. Pardon me if I'm using an analysis like this but it seems logical to me.

Art and art collecting is not affected by economy per se. If a new artist who is a genius comes up with art at a low price, artists in general (especially painters) are not forced to lower prices because "the other artist is making a lot more money from customers." The BJD market is similar, Chinese made dolls with a considerably low price point do not force other BJD companies to lower price drastically to compete.

Of course, I am putting this under normal circumstances and disregarding recession. Nonetheless, even with those factors and the way the BJD market works, the only way the hobyy goes is because there are people who can and will pay for a premium tag. And as for pointing out that one is being ripped off, I think many here have mentioned that people know when they're paying too much and as many have advised, research is key over hasty generalizations.

And I, without a BJD yet, I am well aware of the amount of dedication needed to achieve to gain the amount needed to finally purchase one that I truly like and willing to pay for. As you have said about the lady who owned nothing expensive except her doll, I think she bought that doll knowing fully how much money she would lose because (I hope and I think) she is really passionate about BJDs. Realiztically speaking, of course, you will make ends meet if you put importance over what you believe truly deserves your effort. The amount of money isn't truly the issue if you have set a goal for yourself to obtain.

I hope my opinion is read in good meaning

 

In response to Phoenix Rising's post, I pretty much agree with Taco 100%.

People really do have to look out for themselves, especially when purchasing high dollar items such as these. I can look up the value of a car and get help with making my decision by learning what to ask and such. That's me looking out for myself before entering into a deal.

To be honest, I could care less about if someone else was not quite so smart as to do their homework before making a purchase. I do mine, because no one cares if I make a mistake either. One should think that you should look around before making a final decision be it a house, car, doll, ipod or toaster. One should make themselves aware that paying $3k for a Beryl might not be a recoverable loss, etc. before making the decision to purchase.

That's ignorance on their own part. I know it sounds harsh, but really. Before you, the experienced MP user, purchase anything (be it dolls or accessories) you know what you're willing to pay for and what you're not willing to pay for. You know what things are worth to you and such.

My dad's not computer savy, so he has me investigate sites for him when he makes purchases online. He doesn't want to be scammed, nor does he want to over pay. That's him looking out for himself, by asking someone who knows when he doesn't, and he learns to do it more and more on his own.

It's hard for me to understand someone not being able to wait long enough to learn what the going price is for some dolls, at least enough to learn whether or not you should pass on an offer or not.

 

Personally, I think that's just part of a hobby that involves limited items. It's the same for all limited items, no matter what the type. There's going to be huge price hikes once it's no longer publicly available.

There are people that take advantage of it, but hey, if someone can afford the extra $1000 or whatever for that Soom Monthly they really want then that's between the seller and the buyer.

 

Anything is only worth as much as what you are willing to pay for it.

How does one determine whether "it" is worth the price, you do research and determine whether you really need "it" or not.

Just because something is priced at a level beyond what you can afford right now, one does not have to sound so bitter about it. Just as the seller has the right to price at any level, you the buyer has the right NOT to buy it.


BTW, it is not just BJD

Everyone expect old video games to be cheap... but you know that very rare old video games are actually 2-3 times more expensive than the original MSRP? Why, because when the game came out only the very hard-core player bought it. Now 15 years later it is a must have classic.

*** Basically, after market = supply and demand PLUS you must be a smart shopper for your wallet and really know whether you want something or not. This is true not just for BJD shopping but for all collectables. For those who are into antiques, they shop in all kinds of places on-line or in person and they MUST know what they are looking for and the price ranges, otherwise they are totally out of luck.

 

^ This. Definitely this. As doll owners, we are a community and we do help each other out when someone has questions. But buying and selling dolls is in essence, a simple business transaction for many. Some make it seem like sellers increasing their price to market value are deliberately trying to take advantage of a particular buyer. They're not. The seller didn't PM you (general "you") pressuring you to buy a doll for a certain price. They simply listed it for sale, for anyone to see.

No one is automatically entitled to an "in the hobby too" discount. I'm sorry to say that, but that's the way it is. We live in a (mostly) capitalist global economy, and expecting a relative stranger to lower their price just because you enjoy the same hobby is unreasonable. I wouldn't expect someone on Craigslist selling a rare and expensive fabric to give me a discount just because I enjoy sewing as much as they do.

As for the whole "getting ripped off when buying a car or house" issue... it comes back to the same issue: buyer responsibility. I understand that as a buyer it is MY responsibility to make sure I'm paying a fair price. It's not the seller's. They can set their price at whatever they wish. If I were to look at buying a car and had already decided what make and model, I wouldn't just pay the asking price at the first dealership I went to. I'd look up the Blue Book value of the car and shop around at various dealerships to make sure the price was reasonable. If the going market value for that car has increased over time or through demand, then that's still a fair price. One wouldn't expect a mint-condition limited sports car to sell for only the original list price several years later. The same principle applies here. Supply and demand, it's simple economics that some people just don't seem willing to accept. What is a fair market value isn't solely based on the original list value of the item. There are a number of factors, particularly when the item is no longer available. It's not "criminal", it's just good business sense.

When I bought my first doll, I'd looked around DoA and on the site where the dolls were sold, to make sure I was getting a fair market value for my purchase. I hate to sound callous, but if someone joins DoA and jumps on the first listing of a doll without doing their research, then they've learned a hard lesson. But IMO, it's not the fault of the seller... it's the fault of the buyer, sorry to say.

 

I definitely think Taco hit all the important points for this topic.

I can understand why people get upset about scalping, because it 'feels like' being ripped off, regardless of the facts. But I also think it's just impractical to get so upset and emotionally invested in this hbby - to the point where having to go without a LE doll becomes some sort of personal affront.

I also think the line between scalpers and people just selling at market value must be very thin if even 40% markups count as 'scalping' (as in Phoenix Rising's Heliot examples).

 

Here's how I personally draw the line between a scalper and someone who resells things at market value:

A scalper is someone with a track record of purchasing things they are reasonably sure will increase in value (e.g. limited Volks dolls) with no apparent intention of keeping them, and immediately reselling those things at a much higher price. There's an entire ecosystem on Yahoo!Japan, for instance, of people who attend Dolpas, buy up as many limited dolls as they can, and then resell them on Y!J at a large markup, and it's REALLY OBVIOUS who these people are. There are people on DOA who do a very similar thing, and it's pretty obvious to me who they are as well.

I don't think someone who buys an expensive limited, decides it's not for them after all, and resells it at a price the market will bear is scalping UNLESS they show the pattern above. There are definitely some people who continually buy limiteds, "just can't bond" with those limiteds, and resell them at a tidy profit, and I think we all know what they're up to. But if it happens once or twice? Or someone resells a doll they've owned for years and makes some money? Not scalping IMO.

 

chibaraki has it down, there are two different types of people that need to be considered: The ones that do it CONSTANTLY, and the ones who did it maybe once or twice.

I don't think I've seen too many true scalpers here in this marketplace. I don't really consider the soom MDs to be scalped by most people, mainly because there is just a huge demand for it, so people are going to take advantage of the limited aspect when they go to get rid of one. (I also notice that many, many people who sell their MDs are just selling it so they can get a different one they like more. When Amber came out, Topaz flooded the market place because people wanted Amber instead, so they sold off their Topaz that just came in.) It's basic economics at work.

Personally, if you get upset over the prices and feeling ripped off, you're going to get upset with A LOT of things in life like that. The doll hobby reflects any other hobby; there's going to be supply and demand, and things will go up and down in price. I don't think people should take it so personally. It's not like most people reselling are going "hahaha, I want to make you feel bad and feel personally defeated that you will never own this doll!"

 

Agree completely with Taco. I want to add, too, that when markets are left alone, they are self correcting. If people start glutting the market with SOOM monthlies, as in the example that Phoenix Rising gave, the increased supply will drive the price down. Frankly, it is often artificial constraints placed on markets that create unintended consequences and unleash havoc. Since the example of the house market was raised, it was subprime mortgage regulation that incentivized real estate speculation and financial derivatives that finally popped and took the economy down with them. What was seen as a morally good thing in providing affordable home ownership ended up making housing less affordable for all. ***Don't want to derail the discussion off dolls. Just want to point out that trying to apply "morality" to economics can lead to unintended results.***

 

You're never really going to know why someone sells a doll. In most cases, though, it's that money locked up in the doll is wanted more for something else - whether it's another doll or three, a holiday, vet bills, shoes for the children, a solar heater, a financial safety net... There's nothing morally wrong with converting the money a luxury item represents back into cash, and I think it's worse to insist that "for the hobby" people take less than they could get.

I agree, by the way, with the previous poster who said it's entirely different when it comes to overpricing necesseties.

The thing is... no one forces you to buy a doll. No one can force you to pay any price the seller wants to put on it. If the price is too high, it won't sell. The responsibility is ultimately on the buyer who decides whether or not the doll is worth that much money to her.

 

Yup, agree with this. I think it all boils down to how much you want the doll , why you want it and how that weighs up against money

 

I think that some people buy some of the limited dolls for this reason.... as an investment. Anyone knows that a limited edition doll is going to go up in value, once it's been sold out. Even sometimes, dolls that are not limited editions go up in price after they're sold out. I think it's completely logical for this to happen, and I say anyone who buys a doll, simply to wait for the price to go up, has more patience than I do... because mine come out of the box as soon as I get them! Even the limited ones.

 

(Emphasis added by me). Not necessarily. There are actually some limited dolls that never really increase in value. Even some that decrease. For example, if the same doll is re-released with more desirable accessories, or the face sculpt is re-released with upgrades like a newer, more poseable body... in that case the original doll can even go down in price.

For example... Musedoll's Ciel was originally listed as a limited sculpt (it may just have been the open-mouthed version; I can't quite remember the details). Later, the company decided to release her as a standard edition and the "limited" version didn't increase in value.

 

I totally agree with thefontbandit. Most of my limiteds have not gone up in value, some have stayed the same, some have decreased. Furthermore, I am just darn happy when I get what I paid back for a doll and I never expect it too increase in value. I buy sculpts because I like them. Sometimes the doll ends up not being what I wanted or I need to get the money for something else (such as autumnrain said). Thing is, and I mentioned this before in this thread, is just because a price is over original sale value does not mean it is over what the person who is selling it bought it for. Because I am willing to pay more for a sold out doll, I run an even higher risk of not getting what I paid in return. I have lost quite a bit because of this. I do not mind really, I love these dolls and it is a risk I fully accept in buying a doll. I think some may be surprised at how much people loose on dolls, especially when the seller bought it on the after market in the first place.

 

only for limited dolls...
cuz then if you go like: i did a super nice tattoo so im selling this doll double the price!
im sorry this is stupid. i'd be like: im gonna buy the doll on the original site and then i'll do a tattoo myself (or leave it blank) cuz your prices are RIDICULOUS!

also what is stupid is a damaged or modded limited dolls sold double, triple etc the price. i believe when a limited doll suffered changes, wether it was meant to or not, you should sell it for less. ex: an euclase from soom. its currently 1400$, but if its damaged or modded you shouldnt sell it full price...

 

You should realize that there are people out there that either can't or don't want to do tattoos/modding themselves, and like the opportunity to buy a doll with the work already done. Plus if the artist is talented, then you should very well expect to pay for their work. I'm not sure when an artist's work suddenly became worth nothing--good mod work may not be to everyone's taste, but it does not constitute damage.