Role Reversal - Objectifying Males in the ABJD World

Just explain to me the logic here:
video of woman looking sexy & crooning, drawing lots of (pretty) males to her = objectifying female
video of men looking hot & sexy, drawing lots of (pretty) females to them = objectifying females

!!!!?????

NOT

I like seeing dolls dressed in role-reversal outfits - very interesting because you tend to focus more on real differences & resemblances rather than societal ones

 

Because the first is a female being sexy in order to attract men to her, and the second is men parodying the things a woman does to attract men to her--and the "joke" is that in the context of the video, it works, despite it being not really what most women would find attractive. The women in that video are part of the joke.

 

Sorry - don't agree at all. Did it ever occur to you that Madonna & Lady Gaga are also displaying POWER? Or that these little boy bands are most certainly being objectified by their respective record companies because of how all the little girls swoon over them? Sheesh.

 

Not directed at you. Have no clue to what gave you that idea to be honest. :/
It wasn't really directed at anyone or a specific comment. It was more directed at people who think this way. There are plenty of them unfortunately. You may thing that I overreacted, I do that aaaall the time. I am a loon, have proof of it from my psychiatrist.
But seriously, I can go look over this entire forum and pick quotes if you really feel it is necessary. It would be tiresome though.

Oh, and...
"the sweet, emotionally reliable, great in cooking, absolutely non-jealous, cute as a button and extremely submissive male with girly looks"
Love those kind of characters! Have quite a few of them myself.
That is what my point was. Behaving like that makes someone sweet and human. If that person identifies as a man it is a man. If that person identifies as a woman it is a woman. I hope you understand what I mean. English is not one of my strengths. I apologize for that!

 

No need to pick quotes, in other threads I have seen this attitude a lot too, so now I know what you meant. I am often annoyed about "that is not how a *insert gender of choice* really is" and generalizing comments about a certain gender etc., expecially if coming from people who have never had any problems with their own gender identity and/or orientation. So I actually agree with you. I guess the main reason why I understood it as directed at myself is because I am a loon too >.> So I apologize too.

And - pssst! - I love this kind of characters too, in any gender. It is just such a pity that they rarely exist in reality

 

*blows kisses at*
Thank you so much for being so understanding! I often make a hen out of a feather (do you use this expression in English I wonder) and then I go batshit. This time I am pretty sure I did and I re-read the comment that made me react and it wasn't a complaint at all. It did rub me the wrong way just a little bit but I definitely over-reacted.

I wish there were more people like that irl too! We just have to make do with our own characters I suppose.

I am so sorry ladies and gents in this thread for steering away from the subject!

Good discussion going on though! I'll leave it to the experts from now on.

 

I feel that in a world of fantasy everyone should be hot regardless of gender and no matter whether it's practical or not. Though especially women, because female bodies are awesome

That's the beauty of dolls, I can have mini representations of human perfection in either gender. My men can be hot by my standards just as well as my women, and it's wonderful.

 

I seem to find that alot of women have this "holier than thou" attitude towards men- which I find bitter and impractical. Maybe I just run into the wrong kind of women? I have a low tolerance for my gender and I know there is an issue with sexism, but I don't think either side- male or female, is going about fixing it the right way. While in the actress example, she says no because a simple wardrobe is nowhere near as important as evolving her career- which is an attitude I would much rather admire. If the guys are willing to pay well for what makes me look appealing, what's the issue? I'm extorting money from them because of their most primal instincts. Couldn't be more perfect. And on top of that, one of them is bound to look past my looks and find that I'm truly talented. Good looks can only go so far.

I feel like no matter what you do, guys are always going to do what guys do. The only and best thing I find you can do is find a place where you can establish yourself as an equal. For example. Gamers have mostly been predominately male. Now here comes along a girl and 9 times out of 10, guys are going to be instantly drawn to her- especially if you are good at what you do. Now you can either be insulted by the fact that they are paying more attention to you because of your gender, or you can show them through your skill that gender doesn't matter. Some guys will be pigs regardless of your skill, but a good portion of them will respect you as an equal if you treat them as an equal and knock them flat on their arse.

That's my take on it. I don't view myself as a woman to being anything super important and I find being around guys is alot more pleasant than with girls. c.c Women are so stressful, connivi- eh...well, I do still run into the occasional pig, but most men I meet are very nice. I still feel alot of women overthink or overreact to certain situations. Or maybe just people in general. I agree that the general rule of thumb should be to treat others the way you wanna be treated. I go into a room of people and I see people, not gender or race. If I get treated poorly by one person or another, they can go bite a bullet. I also think women objectify men just as much as men objectify women, only men are more noticable because it's more outstanding and obvious. Women aren't as loud-mouthed and open about how they look or think about a man, I think. lol I do because I have no shame and I enjoy the boys' reaction. 8D

 

PrincessBane, I do not intend to offend you in the following. I simply would like to state my view on the things you said. Still, you are of course entitled to your own opinion.

First of all, I would like to point out some - in my opinion - illogical things in your argumentation:

1) sexy looks as a means of power - they are something that is, by its nature, extremely non-permanent, and if you want to build your career on that only, you might be bitterly disappointed in the end - attractivity is a big part of everything in our society, but it shouldn't be the only vector;

2) the talent behind the looks - there is a chance no one will ever see that you (general you, referring to the hypothetical actress) are really talented - and maybe, you actually aren't - and there is a chance they don't even have the intention to see your talent - and maybe you might just end up making this world a bit more sexist by your behaviour;

3) extorting money from them because of their most primal instincts? - I consider this a little bit offensive. Why do you think that men in this world should be reduced to their instincts?

4) putting the exploited one in an "as if"-position of power - would you really say that if some guy is going to pay to see you naked or near-naked, to see you in some contorted poses, to see you engaging in sexual behaviour, this gives YOU power? So, the stripper in a stripper bar, the prostitute, the porn actress - are the ones in charge?

Many gamer guys would of course find you great! But not necessarily because you are "a girl who is gaming and is good at it". They might think you are great because you are 1) a (good-looking) girl, and 2) are a good gamer. The two things don't have to be connected. Then again, some of them might smell a chance to get a girlfriend who will finally understand their hobby and even play together with them or against them. Or on the contrary, stay away from you because they don't take a girl in the hobby seriously. Guys are different too, you know? There are many possibilities for guys to think and act. And still, your gender will matter in most situations. If you want it or not. And accepting you as an equal in a game doesn't necessarily mean accepting you as an equal in general.

Why does defending the males so often mean blaming or bashing the females? I see it done a lot by the "I prefer to hang around with boys, even though I am female"-hetero-, cis-, females (I assume you are one of those, correct me if wrong). Don't you see this is exactly what patriarchy - with all its homophobic, transphobic, and machismo attitudes - wants from you? Alienate you from your own gender, yay! Identifiy with the straight male, yay! This has been done to hetero-, cis-female in the past centuries - make them think their kind is inferior, make them think they are emotionally unstable, hysterical, stressful, stupid, annoying, talk too much, weak - *insert attribute of choice* - make them think the males are better and a better company for them, and they are much more easily controllable.

And chances are that most men are very nice to you because you are a young, attractive female. And also because you, as a hetero female, probably treat them better than you treat females. Men are not necessarily so very nice towards each other, by the way. And many of them are also not very nice to people who deviate from the socially accepted stereotypes of either "sexy biological female" or "cute tomboy".

No, not because it is more outstanding and obvoíous. Because it is socially acceptable and done on a much bigger scale. Our society objectifies females - not necessarily single males.

 

Princessbane, I'm sorry but what you said about women being stressful and so on is complety irrelevant for this debate and utterly offensive...

 

Evolving a career is great or can be, but on what grounds is it based? Are you being respected? Are you getting all the opportunities you should get, or are you being type cast into the same roles do to gender and appearance? These things really are issues -- it hurts to be treated like a second class citizen whose main purpose in life is to please guys. Women are more than that, capable of more than that. That's not being holier than thou, that's just wanted to be treated like a human being.

As for your experiences with women... some women are great, some are jerks, some men are great, some are jerks. People vary, ALL people vary. It saddens me to see women constantly being lumped together as a group as being mean, catty, all drama drama drama, can't be friends with other women (I know from personal experience that that isn't true!) etc etc. Those are stereotypes, and stereotypes shouldn't be so easily accepted and pushed like that. And it is pushed, hard (just look at most reality TV shows). That doesn't mean that every woman you''ll come in contact with is someone that you'll like, but are you really going to be that quick in writing off half the world's population?

And when I'm complaining about sexism, I don't believe all guys are bad, or all guys are sexist either. However, there's a lot of cultural holdovers still hanging around that are quite damaging.

This lowers the bar a lot for guys. It assumes that they are all pretty much the same and will always be that way. That's patently not true. It shouldn't be too much to ask for and expect some basic respect as a person, which is really what all of this boils down to.

I don't game, so I can't comment. But, what about girls that want to go into other areas of life besides gaming? There are still careers where women completely get the cold shoulder, where women don't get paid equally for doing the same work as a guy, where they get looked over looked for promotions, and have a greater chance of dealing with very inappropriate harrassment. Should they just skip it, and go where they are welcome? Or should people work for change, so that things will actually improve. Most sensible people would suggest 'change.'

Lots of guys can be nice. So can lots of women. It doesn't break down neatly by gender. Both men and women are capable of overreacting, and some men who are very nice in one situation may not be in another. It's not that simple, and of course things will seem like overreaction to you if you don't think there's an issue in the first place. However, there are issues. I don't think being a woman makes me superior or inferior, nobody here state anything to suggest differently so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. That's great if you can go into a situation and completely look past gender (though some of your negative comments about women suggest that perhaps you aren't as good at doing this as you make out). However, that doesn't mean that other people are willing to look past your gender, and that can cause women a great deal of very real hurt the effects of which or not so easy to just shrug off.

 

Oh was that going to be conniving? How very unnecessary.
I too find your comments and assumptions about women to be very offensive and suggest that they have no part in this debate.

 

These two quotes remind me of this article I recently stumbled upon. It's about "disarming" women by making their opinions invalid. "Women are overreacting. Women are hormonal. Women are over thinking things. Women are crazy."

It's not exactly the same as with objectivation, but there are similarities. With objectivication, as mentioned by people responding before me, the (representation of a) person is turned into an "object" which renders their opinion invalid. It doesn't matter what the person thinks, it's become an object for you to consume/gape at/etc.

Objectivication of men happens too. Some women can be, like some men, pigs. It can get quite upsetting too, like the rape fetish encountered in yaoi fandom ("It's okay if it's done out of love." or "It's okay, because he liked it in the end." where the main focus is still dismissing the opinion/wishes of a character and render it powerless) and the women/girls who are into that stuff are just as ignorant about what's wrong as men/boys who are into pin-up posters of lobotomised, big breasted, nymphomanic sex-slave women in skimpy French maid outfits. (To pick two examples from both sides.)
I'm sure that most of the yaoi fans and pin-up fans are at some level ashamed of what's in the dredges of their fandom.

I do have to admit that objectification of women happens at a grander scale, it involves more money and is more visible. It's the comic, game and movie industry VS less visible mediums like the internet (forums, news groups, web galleries, private blogs) and private/small publishers (the doujinshi industry, for example). I think one of the more visible areas with male objectification is the fashion industry although there it happens right next to female objectification and I've heard men defend themselves with "but those are not real men!".
My guess is that if men are shocked by male objectification, something the OP refers to, it's because they are not used to it. I'm not saying that being used to it is good. Once you are past "What is this?" you can actually form an opinion. Don't let them take away or dismiss your opinion.

 

I'm sorry if my post seemed to be offensive. I didn't mean it to be, honestly. I can see, though, that it is agreed upon that my opinion holds no weight here, or perhaps I just phrase myself wrong. I'm not attractive, just for the refenence. I'm very plain and almost ugly, so I know that my looks never had to do with my status with men. Yea, it's had them ask me out before, but that's like once in a blue moon. I still feel that it's possible to be able to be on a equal level with guys without being defensive about it. I hang out with guys because I choose to, not because they've somehow convinced me to turn against my own gender. I did that on my own. Again, maybe I just encountered the wrong kind of women, but most women I've met have been the kind to smile at you, be friends, but still holding the knife behind their back. And I've seen many of them do horrible things to my guy friends. c.c Like...nag at them or run off with another dude after being with them for 6 years. One of my friends girlfriends practically leads him around on a leash. Now I have girl friends, but they are few and far inbetween. Either way, I know that some guys look at me and see only my gender, but I honstly don't care, it doesn't bother me because, if they're attractive, I look at them with the same mindset. 8D Especially when Asian men are concerned.....ahem. Again, I meant no offense and I simply wished to get across that I believe it is entirely possible to bne on a equal level with them.

 

In terms of women being conniving... I really dislike that part. Like others have said, men can be nice, and so can women. Both can equally be conniving. Both can equally manipulate in their own separate ways.

Most women and men are nice. I have encountered many women in my life who are perfectly agreeable, friendly, and nice to be around. I have also encountered women who tend to be annoying, slightly manipulative, selfish, and rude. I've seen the same behaviors in men. Usually, - or at least, when I've encountered it - this behavior is seen by other people, and they tend to gain a reputation as being annoying or rude people.

I have always found it confusing when I hear how some women feel that they can put down their own gender. Isn't this an example of overreacting? That ideology can bite you in the butt.

It hurts when people decide to write us off because they assume that we're all going to act one way. We're not all the same.

To answer the main question: Do I think we're objectifying males in the BJD hobby? I don't know, and I've never sat down to consider it. The majority of the dolls I've seen are fully clothed.

 

Muisje- excellent points, particularly about the yaoi characters. "It's okay he (or she) liked it in the end" is never a good justification regardless of the sex. And in yaoi (and hentai in general) the characters are most definitely reduced to object status a lot. Yet the friends I have that are into yaoi don't think of men as objects, so at least in my circle, no harm is done. I suppose there are probably those out there that think, whatever happens to a man is okay because he's a man and won't be bothered by it, but that probably comes from something much deeper than enjoying looking at submissive porn. I suspect it's similar for the men who think only of women's bodies, I think they probably had other cues to build on than just here's a bunch of women in skimpy costumes fighting crime.

writerm- nice work getting back to the topic I don't think it's something people put a whole lot of thought into on a regular basis.

 

Thank you so much for this link, such a great article ^^

Your opinion does hold weight. It is just that your words devalueing females were uncalled for. And your words about convincing yourself to turn against your gender puzzle me - do you honestly believe you live in an air bubble, untouched by society's conditioning? Please stop hating females that much. You can have your opinion, and you can hang out with guys as much as you like, it is all cool. But hating females is harmful to others - and to you, expecially if you are one yourself.

Muisje and napoleonchan - the yaoi topic is actually very fitting in this debate in my opinion, because the perceived "objectification" of males in our hobby is probably very closely connected to yaoi influences. By the way, the "okay because s/he liked it in the end"- quote makes me very uncomfortable. Not because I have seen it in both yaoi and hentai - porn is there to be enjoyed, and it is fantasy, after all. But because this kind of reasoning is also used in real life. It is a typical example of objectification and reduction of a person to her/his sexual function, and a horrible thing.

 

Anyone who reduces any person to their sexual-fiction self is not operating in the same reality as the rest of us. It's kind of a given that anybody who forms their real-life ideas about people/relationships from ANY kind of erotica-- straight-porn, hentai, romance novels, gay porn, yaoi, girl-on-girl porn for men, all of it-- seriously needs their head examined.

Those things ARE fantasy. And the whole raison d'etre of a fantasy is that it operates without the constraints of real-life circumstances.... So girls fall in love with their rapists, guys drug each other with impunity, no means yes, everybody comes at the same time, and nobody has to use a condom. "It's OK, because s/he really wanted it" has been going for a very very very long time, and it lies at the heart of stories in every genre you can come up with. It is indeed creepy, in a fundamental way, when you boil it down and think about it soberly in daylight-- but that's because it's not meant to be thought of that way.

Also: It's nothing new that people (mostly men, but women too) are still pissed-off at women who aren't afraid to use their "gaze" on men, and use it loudly and publicly. Go read early Erica Jong, & then imagine what it was like for her to publish Fear of Flying in 1973! The Stone Age really WAS that recent. XD

 

I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me (or neither nor), but I have some thoughts to add anyway:

Yes, of course in fantasy things work differently than in reality. I do not condemn yaoi - no matter of which kind (except shota, bleh!). I like yaoi, as well as gei-comi, certain kinds of hentai, and yurí. I read some myself. Heh, I even draw some, from time to time. And usually not the vanilla type (let's just say, most of it stays far away from my dA accounts, because it would break several rules at once). And why? Because I have this opinion that it is perfectly ok to fantasize about things that are inappropriate in real life. But I don't like generalizations when talking about these things.

The idea that "it's ok because s/he liked it in the end" is not only one of fantasy. This idea is also not necessarily connected or influenced by consumption of erotica. It is a very real problem, and in real life, it has little to nothing to do with yaoi. It is also closely connected to "It is ok because this is what s/he wanted", and "It is ok because he is gay/she is wearing a mini-skirt". This, and not yaoi, makes me uncomfortable.

For me, "it is ok because it is only fantasy" is a better way of reasoning when dealing with objectifying erotica, than "it is ok because the victim liked it", because the latter is a generalization that doesn't state clearly that it is only applied to a fantasy setting, and reminds of the real problem.