Role Reversal - Objectifying Males in the ABJD World

Let's not forget that no one ever needs lube. The arses of ukes are self-lubricating. True story.

 

The last few coments have made me Very happy. I recently had a conversation where someone was condeming fantasy and connecting it to real life. To see you guys making the distinction, that the problem arrises when people Can't make the distinction between fantasy and bringing these very damaging idea out into reality..
I'm very pro pornography, pro erotica but I want both to improve(Specially in variety. Yaoi def needs a little less of the victimizing and more equality with partners!) and there to be dialogue about these issues instead of shutting them behind a door.
Even within the doll community! I used to be creeped out by overtly sexual dipictions of dolls, until I forced myself to really Look. See if this was objectification or if it was just healthy kink. I was glad to find that most of what I saw was just, for fun. No harm intended and there were at least as many fully fleshed out character stories etc as the sexy stuff.
There's still too much of the other though. Especially without warning labels or any idea that what they're doing is pretty, gross.

Though question, does anyone else feel like most dipictions of the typical seme/uke bdsm relationships that the uke is not relly seen as Male? Specially in fanfiction and doll stories/photos etc. That they've been 'feminized'? and you never really see the bottom/victim acting in a way that's seen as stereotypically male? It feels like a bunch more of the 'being female is bad' thing. >.O

 

Best thread. Full stop.

IMO, dolls are objects meant to appeal to the tastes of the owner, so there really isn't a question of "role reversal". I am more interested in HOW women go about sexualizing/objectifying their male dolls. To me it looks like a majority of women do it by making them look like girls. So is the only way for a woman to sexualize a man to make him womanly?

Or maybe it's just everyone's inner lesbian....(trolol)

 

I've seen that mentioned a lot with ukes. From my own perspective, I don't see them as being anything other than male even though their appearance and behavior is not what is stereotypically masculine. But then again, why should characters behave in ways stereotypical of their gender? A male taking a female role could be one way of creating a comfortable distance for the female reader, readers could enjoy seeing role reversal where suddenly it's a guy dealing with all the female type stuff. Though I'm sure readers get different things out of the material they read. I like the way the pretty uke boys look -- they're so damn cute. I don't expect real people to necessarily look like or behave in that way, but it doesn't make the manga characters any less appealing. I don't know... I think someone could read all different kinds of reasons for things into yaoi or any other form of erotica, but I don't know that they would really ring true for every person. I don't see it as a negative, though, as erotica is purely fantasy land where the real world is far far away and guys don't need lube and have sparkles floating around their heads Wow, this was one really rambly paragraph.

To bring it back to dolls specifically for a moment, at the moment only one of my guy dolls is straight. Of the yaoi couples (or in one case a poor boy waiting for his boyfriend's head to get a body) two of the guys fall into the pretty uke boy category. I find it cute and appealing -- I think partly because I enjoy the contrast of opposites that comes from putting them with a traditional seme type character. It's not really a comment on gender roles in society, or how I feel about femaleness, but rather an aesthetic thing.

 

Oh, EVERYTHING in pr0nzworld is self-lubricating. All girls have multiple orgasms while losing their virginity, and they never bleed. And all housewives are frustrated and hot for your bod just because you've come to fix the plumbing. And so on.

Right, that's what I mean-- people who actually take that as a real thing are not operating in the same reality as the rest of us, because they cannot distinguish fantasy from reality. "I could tell she wanted it because she was wearing a miniskirt" was the widely-accepted mindset not too many years ago, and it was also how the law tended to work; since women did not have much of a voice with which to tell everyone You're Wrong, that fantasy was accepted as reality. Thanks to a lot of vocal people and the passage of time, it is no longer so broadly accepted as reality. [But as usual, please note that battle is never over kthx.]

And no, it really has nothing to do with yaoi per se; it has to do entirely with the wider concept of fantasy.

(Fortunately, the majority of people you meet CAN tell reality from fantasy. So when they indulge in a swashbuckling pirate-rape fantasy, or tales involving magical aphrodisiacs slipped into the drink of an unwilling paramour, they're usually just looking for a saucy bit of fun-- not a How-To manual.)

Oh yeah, you hear that a lot. A woman who likes to watch two boys get it on MUST be a lesbian, makes perfect sense, riiight. It's so ridiculous, you can't believe people are actually serious when they say it, but they are. Once again, it's because Power = something that only men should have. Therefore, if the woman is doing the gazing, if she is in the position of power, she's secretly got penis-envy and is only repressing a desire for other women. Riiight. (These are usually the same minds who still think "pointing out gender inequalities makes you a feminazi" and "she must want it because she's wearing a miniskirt".)

 

Taco Oh I agree! I'm a big fan of tropes myself And of mixing it up and deliberately making a pretty boy in the seme postition or butch lady in the uke etc. Hmm can't wait for my Saber to arrive. *__*

Ahem, anyways!
I was thinking less in the just for fun catagory and more in the objectification roles. When it's obvious the men in the story/picture are just there to be objects? I don't know if I'm making sense. ^^;;

Though maybe in this case I'M the one projecting as I generally dislike the sorta Moe typical wholesome shy bashful girl thing and dislike it in men as well.

 

I get what you're saying now, though I think a lot of my above answer does hold true at least to an extent. There's a lot of things the uke in that situation could be seen as representing and it doesn't necessarily have to be anything negative about being female. but a certain amount comes down to the mind of the reader there. Um, hmmm...thinking back over the manga I have read, lol...I would say that in the land of smut, sometimes you do get smut for smut's sake -- I tend to prefer things that have a good story to go along with, but sometimes a smutfest for the heck of it is fun too. I worry less about the objectification issue in manga/anime however, because they aren't real people acting out those roles. That's not a response that I've come to through thinking it out--it's more of a gut reaction. Real people porn makes me uncomfortable, because I react differently to real people than to a drawing or a doll. When I see real people, I immediately worry about their safety, well being, how they are being viewed etc. While I have empathy for a doll or manga character, I can set a lot of the real world concerns aside and enjoy the fantasy aspect because not being real people allows for a little distance that makes things more comfortable. The gap between reality and fantasy widens even further for me.

 

I know I've said some pretty inflammatory things on here and for that I wanted to apologize to everyone on this thread. I didn't mean to sound so abrasive nor did I want to offend anyone. And for everyone I offended, I apologize. I'll leave the thread promptly, I probably didn't even read the topic properly, I feel like I missed the whole point. Lol. At any rate, I only wanted to post one more time to let everyone know that even though I do not personally get along with women, I shouldn't have been rude. c.c I hope that you guys can forgive me. I won't lie, the one thing that drew me to this site in the first place was that it was the one place I could learn and share my love for BJDs. That's one thing my guy friends can't provide, as they see the dolls to be...eh, gay, in their words. So to have somewhere like here where I can enjoy and share my love for my boy without being judged is nice.

 

I do agree with Muisje regarding some tropes into yaoi manga,which i do not like anyway.
The reason why i do not like is that in there i've found too often smut.I do love traditional comics,but i do not like porn in comics,like too often hentai manga and,sorry no offence to anyone's tastes, yaoi manga are full of. I can avoid a porn or adult movie but i cannot avoid a comic that turn into porn at some stage,sadly sevaral yaoi mangas at some point all become porn (i stil remember gravitation remix). Just because the characters are drawn that to me doesn't mean that isn't porn. I'm a woman that loves to dress in casual clothes and i'm the classy tomboy,i do love to wear suits,tie,and sneakers or just loafers,i do love soccer and rugby. I explain myself in clear way and i'm not afraid to do it.maybe i'm a trope myself,but i do not mind cause i do love to be myself,i'm like that simply

I do not think sincerely that in bjd hobby there is a intentional objectifying of male characters,as said bjd are dolls not real people but i do admint that i do not like crossdressing,i do not like explicit piccies that shows bjd sexualization,but mainly because i'm not into the otaku vibe,no offence to anyone cause being an otaku isn't wrong nor someone must be ashamed of,it's not my cup of tea that's all .

I found more female objectifying into fashion dolls collecting world,that is male gay dominant, than into bjd hobby that is female dominant. Often into Fashion dolls collecting you see girlie and younger dolls dressed like teenager or the classy femme fatale meneater, there are two tropes and no middle way. But again fashion dolls are just dolls like bjd are just dolls,so again anyone is entitled to do what is more pleasant with their dolls,at very least are none of my business what people does with their dolls.

I wish to add one more thing regarding fantasies: there is nothing wrong in fantasies, nothing wrong in having some,no harm is done are just fantasies in the end,but i do not like to see fantasies realized with bjd or dolls in general,sorry if i seems prude.
I'm myself pro erotica but i would be careful to claim that i'm pro pornography..in the porn industry the women are merely money tools and nothing more,several actress having some serious health issues,several have a lot of drugs addiction issues and a lot of actors and actress commit suicide at some stage.

I hope that my opinions will not offend anyone

 

$abbatha, I agree with you on a lot of that stuff! I really think anything that turns to smut should have VERY clear labeling and be kept in adult only area's. So you always know what you are getting into.
Far too often people seem to think that being open about sexuality is shoving it in the open and not taking care that not Everyone is as comfortable as they are.
You don't like so you shouldn't have to see it! You should be able to avoid those things. Which is why DOA has those labeling rules in place. We have a separate forum for serious debate. And all out smut needs to go on another forum else where.

As for pornography it's a corrupt medium and I'm for it Only because I believe it's not going to go away. So it should be Safe. It should be done with respect for those involved.

and don't worry about offending anyone. So far this has been an awesome debate! Lots of discussion. ^__^

 

Coming into the conversation to weigh in on the topic of ukes... (oh dear...)

A lot of people who know I enjoy both comics/animation (including manga/anime) and gay romance stories then make yaoi recommendations to me, and a lot of the time, it feels like a relationship between a fourteen year old girl and a date rapist (usually in some position of power), which is very much the opposite of what I want, a story about two equals who come to deeply care about and respect each other. Usually while fighting crime/orcs/what-have-you.

Anyway, yeah. Look, I have no problem with adults who understand the difference between fantasy and reality and whose fantasies are different from mine, but I am a little sad sometimes at the oversaturation of this same dynamic of one partner who is small, vulnerable, and whatever their sex/gender, coded 'female', and the other is bigger, stronger, holds all the power socially, not because it exists, but because I am tired of being told it's what I want, when it isn't.

=^__^=
Anneko

 

Anneko you made some really good point, i see completely your point!!!

 

Has it occurred to you that the reason you prefer the male comic book characters is because of the exact problem we are discussing - their depictions of women as objects to put in peril, preferably while scantily clad? It seems to me that you are young, and maybe a bit naive. When you work hard 40 hours a week, and the part time guy with the same job spends most of his time at work surfing the internet, yet he gets paid $2.00 more an hour simply because he IS a man, you might start to consider sexism one of the more serious issues.

I agree that an object cannot be objectified. In the case of dolls, I think what people are more discussing is the character the doll represents. If you have an Iplehouse Claude, and he sits in a case and looks pretty in his armor, is that being objectified? No, because he's just a doll. It's when you start saying, "This is my Iplehouse Claude. His name is SirSexypants, and he's on a quest to conquer every pretty girl's virtue from here to Timbuktu, the lovable scoundrel" that objectification and sexualization become an issue.

This debate reminded me of a female character flowchart I once saw. It's to determine what stereotype your character falls into, if any. I dug it up again here. It only applies to women characters though. When I tried following it with male characters in mind they either breezed right through the top to "strong character" or got inaccurate results. Probably due to the fact certain questions just don't apply to a male character, such is if he uses his sexuality as a weapon, because the answer will always be no.

Both of these QFE. That is exactly what I was thinking, but you articulated it better than I could have.

A corollary to this is also seen with trends in names. There are a lot of names that were once traditionally male: Ashley, Leslie, Stacy... Once those names became popular for girls their usage for men became almost nonexistent.

In English a commonly used equivalent is "making a mountain out of a mole hill." I think I like your expression better!

Please don't think your opinion holds no weight! This is the debate forum. You are entitled to your opinion, but because some of us disagree, we want to put forth our own opinions and reasons for doing so. And if we make you think harder about your opinion, and maybe even change your mind, then that's all we can ask for. But we are not trying to disrespect you simply by having a different take on the matter and engaging in a discussion about it.

 

PrinceDuCiel thanks so much for liking some point of my post
Regarding Pornography i think differently from you,that's good we have just different opinions which is quite normal.
I think that several things aren't just right into adult movie industry,then again i would not say that adult actors and actress have a great time doing that movies.To me into porn movies, or adult movie whatever , there is a full dose of degradation and also depravacy.
Again no offence to anyone,this is just my point of view


I was browsing flickr yesterday,i accidentally stumbled onto a dollie pic that shows two female mature fashion doll ( fashion dolls called fashion royalty ) in sexy lace underwear,next to them were two realistic male action figures ( based onto the features of the american actor Jake Gyllenhaal) naked, this pic was full of inappropriate comments from gay males collectors of fashion dolls regarding the realistic action figure ..and a doubt pass thru my mind : maybe it's usual or typical for any male to objectify the characters regardless of the gender..?
So straigh men objectify the women while gay men objectify the males?
Again no offence to anyone,just explaining a sublte doubt...

 

At the risk of taking this thread further off topic, I have a few things to say about that flow chart. It would never work with a male character, nope, unless he specifically takes the typical female role in the story. Those questions are designed with these female archetypes in mind, so forcing a character obviously not created to fulfill those roles through the chart is going to prove difficult. Also, when running several female characters through that flow chart, I got a lot of inaccurate results simply because the questions assume a lot of things and don't account for every possible answer. I ran into "How does she feel about babies?" and most of the time the answer was "Does not want them" but that answer isn't represented on the chart. I dislike that in order for a female character to be considered a strong female character according to this chart, she has to be alive at the end. Living through the story has no weight on whether she was a good character or not. Last, every character can represent an idea. A lot of the time, that judgment lies with the audience. If we see a female character we think is a good portrayal of a strong female character, she instantly is representing that idea to us, so I have a huge problem with that question being one of the huge obstacles to pass in this chart.

Sure, it's a flow chart designed to amuse and hopefully enlighten, and it is impressive with the number of outcomes, but it does not stand up well to scrutiny.

I can delete this thread if it is too far from topic, mods.

 

EmmBee, I really liked that chart. I haven't run a male through it, but I did run my female character through it; I ran into some issues because my character is so young, and this chart is for older, or at least adult characters. Still a very interesting chart.

If anyone's familiar with cracked.com, there was a very interesting article about why men seemed to be taught to hate women. I'm not sure if it's completely true, but it did remind me of the discussion going on in this thread. Some of what is discussed is that men are taught that beautiful women are trophies to some degree; men are sometimes taught that they deserve beautiful women because they see the guy getting the girl at the end of most shows and movies. Even when you know that they might hate each other, you know she is going to be in a relationship with him by the end.

It's a humorous article, but some of it brings up points I never thought of.

 

Now that was a interesting/hilarious read. Doesn't exactly paint men with the best of brushes, and although I don't agree that all men are like this, it was interesting to get a mans comedic perspective on the matter.

 

>> http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html

Viva Cracked! Really, quite a lot of thinking men *are* well aware of those problems. Many fewer grasp the sheer scope, socio/econimic/political power, & pervasiveness of the male gaze as well as David Wong does here, true, but you gotta start somewhere. It's just you don't normally hear men skewering Inherent Misogyny as the subject of satire like that, because it's supposed to be a "given", the background-radiation truths of life. Hearing it pointed out & itemized makes a lotta people uncomfortable (dig the backlash in the Comments section - poor widdle threatened boychiks! ^^).

Reminds me a little of Cynthia Heimel's columns back in the 80s; it brings up & analyzes many of the same social dynamics we may not even realize are at work every day. In a style less acid-etched and less uproariously funny than hers, of course, but still a good read.

PS. EmmBee, that Female Character Flowchart is an absolute howl. Awesome.

 

Also, even as a woman, having it in list form helped me understand it better, too. (I love lists...)

 

I bought my male dolls because they are sexy objects and it was something I wanted to look at. It didn't have anything to do with "getting back" at men for doing the same thing in their hobbies.