Role Reversal - Objectifying Males in the ABJD World

Hear hear. I honestly don't know of anybody who's on an actual vendetta mission, or anything like that.... and I know a whole lotta male-doll-collecting women. We like foxy male dolls because they're wonderful to look at, and we don't like to hear any crap about it. Doesn't seem like too much to ask. ^^

 

I didn't buy sexy male dolls 'to get back at men' either...but the prevalence of horrendously sexualising and objectifying REAL women in our culture sure makes it harder for me to give a damn if someone accuses me of sexualising my male DOLLIES

 

That would be a really expensive way to exact revenge

 

I really despise overanalysis of anything (being brought up by a psychologist might have created that hatred....) I buy my dolls to fit characters, & I am VERY drawn to gorgeous hunks & pretty boys (w/6-pack abs...)
As for that flow chart - I've always had issues w/that - anyone seeing Uhura as useless I've a problem with...

 

What they said. Also add the examples of the movie Thor and the drama series White Collar. Both went out of their way to display the chests/ more of their male actors. Definitely directed toward the female audience.

 

i think this original topic, at least the headline, is mixing up femenism and femenists with anti-sexism.
femenism is about female equality when it comes to the workplace, wages, and civil rights. femenism originally embraced and encouraged women to enjoy themselves in an unrepressed (and yes, sexual) manner free from the steriotypes influenced by men. the idea of enjoying sex for sex's sake, and men for men's sake, and being open about sexual desire was very prevailent.
it was never supposed to be about men no longer sexualizing women, or about women becoming superior to men. those changes to the movement came about in the last, oh, 20-30 years with the rise of the religious right.

now if you are talking about whether dolls conteract anti-sexist movements, my answer is no. if someone wants to percive it does, that's on them, not the hobby as a whole.
"The world is not made of the situations thrown at us, but of how we react to those situations" ~a good friend.

 

do I, personally? I don't think so... but I'm not a very sexual human being. mens muscles nor womens boobs make me drool. theres nothing about a naked [or half naked] man or woman that makes me weak at the knees, and want to hurl myself on top of them XD

Do I see it happen here? Yep. But I dont think it stops with the male dolls, to be honest. I think a lot of female ones are too.
does it bother me? nah. do i think its ironic? a little.

does it make us bad people? Thats a pretty good question to ask. I think it depends on how far it goes.

 

by "religious right" i'm refering to american politics, not actual religion. it's a term for the replublican party originating from when they becan using fierce religious undertones to win votes. it also refers to the recent trend of trying to merge religion and politics where in the past the government was to keep church and state as segregated as possible.
(apologies to the mods for the politics, just posting for clarification, and kept it as neutral as possible. feel free to modify or edit this as needed.)

going back to the topic, i dont think being sexual makes us bad people. i also don't think that appreciating physical beauty is instantly tied to sexuality. i bet many of us know people we think are very beautiful of any gender, and still have no sexual desire towards them. enjoying beauty =/= objectification or sexism.

 

Slightly off-topic but was I the only person last summer who noticed all the butt shots of Daniel Craig's tightly panted arse in Cowboys and Aliens? It struck me as very deliberate in such a big budget mainstream "blockbuster". I've mentioned it to other friends who saw the film and all the men claimed not to have noticed and all the women smirked and pretended not to have noticed! Or was it just me projecting that onto the women so as not to feel such a perve?

Seriously though, as women are getting into more "call the shots" roles in Advertising/TV and film (not nearly enough, but it's getting better) and women are noticeably having more spending power, I think that men in these media are getting packaged in a more sexualised way for female consumption. That film was directed by a man. Surely it's a good thing? This is all about fantasy after all, and for so many years the only images of men we saw were created by men for men, gay or straight, just the same as they created al lot of the images of women we saw. You might see Harrison Ford in a ripped shirt and Bruce Willis in his vest showing off their pecs, but butt shots weren't that common!

I saw Daniel Craig interviewed about "putting on weight" for his part in "Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" not so long ago and that struck me as a question usually directed at female stars where the weight gain is quite negligible (we aren't talking Raging Bull dimensions here), again the little wheels turned in my head, obviously the male dominated film industry see Mr Craig as a package that needs to look good to keep the female punters happy, and that will make them more money. I don't think I'm explaining it very well, but I have noticed a shift in the last 10 years or so where straight women's tastes are being catered for more in mainstream media... as in barely at all, but that's still a big improvement

When it comes to dolls though, I have lots of female BJDs and they range in looks to suggest different personalities. They are all uniformly pretty I guess, and have great figures to show off the clothes I buy or make for them. I have bought and sold many sculpts to find the perfect dolls for my taste but I only have one male doll and I agonised over which sculpt to buy for SOOOOO long. Somehow it was more important that he look right. He needed to fit my standard of male beauty, he couldn't just be a pretty clothes horse, he had to be spot on! So, in a way, despite the fact that he is always fully clothed, my sexuality played a huge part in the choice of which sculpt to buy.

I don't understand why anyone's boyfriend should be disgusted at what a mainly female group of hobbyists get up to with their dolls. Disgust is a very strong word. He would probably be disgusted at what a group of predominantly gay male group of hobbyists would get up to with their dolls too. Why does he care and why should any of us care what other people, male or female, gay or straight think of what we do with our dolls. If you don't like what people do with their dolls, just click onto the next photo, it shouldn't come down to the level of disgust because no-one is being harmed.

I frequently see the incredibly beautifully photographed works of a fellow DOA member and BJD enthusiast. She heavily mods her all female dolls and shows them in very sexually provocative poses, mostly in submissive roles. Her work is incredible and while I admire her talent as a photographer, face-up artists, doll customiser, costumer and artist, I find her constantly erotically charged subject matters a bit of a turn off. I don't like to see female characters depicted in such a sexual and submissive way, it isn't my thing. I would never use the word "disgust" though, as that would suggest I thought she was doing something wrong, whereas she is merely doing something which is not to my taste.

 

And this:

Bravo!

And hear, hear!

And all that jazz. Seriously guys. Take an objective look back at your own history and then tell us why it makes you uncomfortable that we like looking at the finely sculpted chest and abs once in awhile, rather than the beer bellies at hand (no matter how beloved they may be). Pot. Kettle. Introduction.

It IS a power thing. It is good for women to have some little corner of power. Even though so many of us are powerful women in our own rights, well... look at the world as a whole. It's still a sad, sad place overall.

 

Off topic regarding Craig: Craig is well known to have mainly a huge female audience but he has as well a lot of audience in the gay audience ,in paste he performed gay characters ( love is the devli and Infamous),speaking personally i notice his body in all his movies ( from the earlier like "Love is the Devil" to the newest ones like Defiance,i didn't liked his last movies so i didn't see its.) but i focused personally onto his acting skills rather than on his body.
I'm a followers of Daniel Craig and i can say for sure that he's lose weight for C&A and for The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo,while he was asked to bulk for the new Bond movies Skyfall.
To me seeing handsome actor like Bruce Willis,Daniel Craig or Michael Fassbender at ease with their body which to me seems good for women, somewhat i do wonder why men staring at Angelina Jolie in that way cause to me she isn't a good actress at all...maybe for her appearance?

Regarding seeing piccies that i do not like: again i can avoid to watch at its if these piccies are labelled properly,i've seen several piccies here which i did not liked at all and simply skipped to post some comments,my policy is usually post something nice or do not post at all. It's just different onto different photos websites as flickr where usually the users doesn't even take care to moderate their piccies,i've its seen already,so i've seen what i do not like..then what?I know are just dolls,no harm is done etc..but sometimes it's frustrating to see how some people fantasizes with their dolls cause from the comments i have the perception that they considers these dolls are real women or real men,again this is the vibe of the fashion dolls collecting that is gay male dominant in which the dolls aka women are seeing like living skinny mannequin for some supposed fashion creations and the action figure or fashion doll men are seeing like pure sexual objects.
What i dislike most is the sexualization of the hobby or the sexualization of the toys ( dolls are toys in the end) but again if some people does with their dolls are none of my business, i just wish sometimes that people labels correctly the piccies.

 

I second what Akudem and $abbatha said.
Also i wish to add that everyone is entitled to do what they like with their dolls, but sometimes i'd rather just enjoy pics of dolls in itselfes, without giving all these subtexts, and sexualizing or objectify, or politicizing of dolls, as often happens in the fashion doll world collecting, i don't see nothing like this in BJD hobby so far.
About male actor, just wish to share my opinion,
i think that is good finally that male actors show a bit their body,if their are confortable with along with good acting in movies, i see nothing wrong with it.
Sometimes male actors shown off a bit of their skin even for gay audience, which i'm completely fine with, just to point that to me isn't just a female thingy, Jake Gyllenhaal have a good audience among gay and female
At least i can file a very long list of actresses that are very very popular for their complexion and appearnces, and not just for good acting.
Just my tow of course, i don't wish to offend anybody, and i'm not referring in particular to anybody here, it's just that i find interesting debating about movie industry.

 

Actually, I don't think it matters whether the way mail stars are being honed to appeal to women or gay men, the fact is that there is a shift toward male actors being photographed/filmed in a sexualised way too. I know you can find plenty of examples back to Richard Gere in American Gigolo, but in the majority of films even in sex scenes, until recently, all the girl's clothes all fell off while the guy stayed pretty much fully clothed. I used to wonder if we as women were supposed to find the fact that often the woman was "on top" in the majority of cases as liberating or empowering but let's be honest, they only film so many sex scenes that way so that the camera could get plenty of T&A, while the male actor was just... errr... lying there.

Personally I don't photograph my dolls in sexual poses or nude but I do think it's refreshing that people can and do. Maybe I'm just nosey but I think it's interesting to see what people really find erotic as opposed to what the porn industry or the film industry feed us. I would have thought the OP's boyfriend could use it as an opportunity to get inside women's heads and take a look at what the other half of the human population find appealing. It's like that tongue in cheek but sadly truth tinged Cracked article hints at, if more men(vast generalisation here) stopped seeing women as the enemy and actually got to know what really goes on inside our heads a little... might actually benefit us all.

 

(my emphasis added).

Actually, it involved ALL of the above. Very much so.

A common theme in the feminist consciousness-raising group I was a part of in the early 70's -- led by older women who had been involved in the first wave of activism that brought about changes like we girls being allowed to wear slacks to school in the 60's (I am not making this up) and having the right to school-sponsored sports -- involved not only how do we equalize things, but also discussions on how to reduce the amount of mindless objectification on all fronts.

Because that's what it was. Mindless. The "it's always been done that way" mentality that refuses to question anything. I know it was a pretty earth-shattering experience for those of us who had grown up in highly traditional multi-generational families to be told "yes, it is ok for you the question these attitudes and think about them and come to your own decisions." <-- that being the key point... you may decide that the old ways are the best and that's ok too, as long as you have given it some critical thought rather than just accepting what's told to you without running it through the brain.

The "it was all about sexual freedom" thing is in large part an artifact of 40 years of media telling us what was, IMHO; containing some truth but largely overblown. Yes, it was part of the discussions because some women were raised to believe that you don't talk about sex or what you would enjoy in that regard, ever... and just DISCUSSING it was a big breakthrough for people. That, and understanding that sex and sexuality is part and parcel of being human, neither good nor bad but just a natural thing.

What was more important was the assertion that women did deserve to be treated equally with men on most issues; that they did NOT deserve violence under most all circumstances; and that they DID deserve the right to exercise control over their own bodies and lives in the same way that men do. That was the primary focus of feminism.

It's sad to me that after some small progress for a decade or so, we seem to be backsliding. When it comes around again that someone can be labelled a slut by a public figure, for speaking about the difficulty of affording a medication to treat a hormonal condition that could result in far more expensive surgeries -- well that's just sad.

....

And while all of these issues are important to discuss, it is also clear to me that doll companies make what we want to purchase. If there are lots of lovely rippling abs and lady breasts that defy the laws of physics... well, it's because that's what we want to look at. That probably sounds hypocritical. Well... it is what it is

 

vonbonbon i respectfully disagree on both of your point.
To me sexualize and objectify women and men in HW movies industry is all a male issue,cause men have the power in hollywood,regardless of their sexual orientation (gay men objectify actor, straigh men objectfy actress).
Men sexulize women for ages,fashion designer objectify women for ages with their fashion trend that at some point lead new girls generations to serious health issues as anorexia (and now even boys suffers of the same problems too), just because the easthetic standard of the women spreads by fashion world was so different than the real easthetic standard.

I don't see how playing with dolls can truely help any men to get inside the head of any women while when they're playing they actually sexualizing and objectifying women..
I agree on one point some men still seeing women as enimies regardless of their sexual orientation.
But i can say for sure that i don't see this in the bjd hobby,so i don't feel the need to face with this severe autocriticism.

 

vonbonbon i would like to agreed with you but i didn't, i have a different pov, but i respect your opinion.
As for movie industry sorry to go again off track, to me it's a matter of male dominant world,regardless sexual orientation , so however you see it there objectification of male and female actors at some point in movie...
The only difference is that now at least there is a fair treatment of both gender, in the 80ies were many more actresses nude, than actors naked in sex scenes, which was also odd as we're suposed to be naked during sex, so there's also a lack of realism.
A clear example of objectfying of males in nowdays is the last AD of D&G male perfume, that reffering clearly to male audience and mainly to male coustomers.
I agree with $abbatha, we can fairly consider as it could be a male issue.
Also there were few actresses in 80ies that have some good skills in acting, and were just gorgeous, where to male actors were required to be only good at acting, beside the compelxion, which i also find sad.
About dolls i always try to photograph my dolls seconding my taste, trying to achieve my taste, but in nowdays sexualization and subtexts in the pictures of dolls, not in this hobby, have become normal, and is something that does not make much sense.
Photographing a female doll, in a certain way, most of the time based on stereotypes, from male collectors, at some point becomes reductive, and i don't think that this attitude in fashion doll word expecially, could cope the female way of thinking, simply show their tastes, or at least their point of view on women, based on stereotypies.
I don't see nothing of this in BJD hobby, also quoting again Akudem and $abbatha i don't see why we should be such severe with ourselves.
I agree at all with you, some males sadly still look at women as enemy, or as wary of.

 

OK, just off the top of my head: Jane Campion, Katherine Bigelow and Sofia Copplla. All female, all have made films that make it into multiplex cinemas across the world, so not just small art house film directors. They may not be making the big Hollywood blockbusters (thankfully!) but why would they want to frankly? The differences in their approach to how sexuality is depicted might be slight but it is there, seeping into the consciousness of the next generation. This will continue hopefully until we get a world where everything is no longer just seen from the male perspective. I'm not saying that Hollywood has changed overall, just that some people in the film world are starting to wake up to a new potential for making money, from films directed and written by women, and therefore whatever the subject matter, it will be shown from a female perspective.

As for my second point, I don't even understand what there is to disagree with. The OP said "I brought up his own disgust regarding the clothing and depiction of male dolls in the ABJD community." Maybe the OP is putting the word "disgust" in his mouth unfairly, imagining his reaction to be a lot stronger than it actually is (but then she knows him) but it's the idea of disgust that bothers me.