Role Reversal - Objectifying Males in the ABJD World

deleted original text. not going to derail further into unrelated politics. all i will say is more was read into my post than what was actually typed.

on topic, since this is about objectification afer all, i did see a cute comic a couple days ago about objectifying males like one would females in hollywood.
http://www.badhaven.com/wp-content/gallery/mexploitation/malke-avengers-do-brokeback-pose.jpg
good for a giggle and semi-related.

 

vonbonbon i see your point,and you're right regarding even some indipendent movies made recently in HW still see HW like a male dominant place..and in some way making cinema is making culture..
Regarding the OP point i was not disagreeing with you regarding this mainly,cause i'm not english mother language so i don't know exaclty which OP means
iIrankly believe that men cannot undestand women just making fun with dolls,that's all.

 

I see some interesting point, expecially about Hollywood industry, surely make big box office movies isn't the same that doing something artistically important, but sometimes even a slightly male actors objectifying could be good at some stage, and at least is less than towards female actresses.
My personal thought is that even if male/men are objectyfing in movies or on fashion mags, or mags in general are objectyfing by other male/men, or if there are women who objectifying men actually are very few .
About OP i'm not aware of the meaning as i'm not english mother language, so it was the only point on which i didn't replied to you
Anyway my opinion is different, despite i'm fine with yours.

 

OP means the original poster

I think men could learn something from women with the way that they play with their dolls as well, because many hobbyists use dolls as a means of self expression. While I wouldn't want to make too many assumptions on an individual level based on a person's doll, I think if there are trends happening with female collectors, then that could show what females tend to finding appealing. A lot of guys don't get that.

If you listen to the media in general (as well as individual people) there is an impression that guys don't really understand women very well, because they are so used to certain stereotypes. Anything that can break down those stereotypes can have a positive effect. Since this topic deals heavily with sex and dolls, I will put it this way: there's an idea that women are not as sexual as men -- that we aren't as interested in it and that what men like and want sexually is more important. If a lot of women are taking sexy pics of their dolls, that would be a way of showing that stereotype isn't accurate. Maybe dolls seem like a small thing, but when you combine all the ways women express themselves, then it helps add up to the bigger whole. More guys (and some women too!) just need to start paying more attention to what females are showing through various outlets.

Even if you personally aren't into sexy doll pics, they do serve a function as a way for women to show what interests them, something that tends to be very overlooked by society in general. I don't personally have a strong like or dislike to sexual pics of dolls -- it really depends on how they're done. Right now I don't have any characters that lend themselves well to that, so those aren't really the kind of pics I take (when I actually do get around to taking pics that is). Whether I like them or not, or get around to looking at them or taking them myself, I like the fact that abjds are photographed in that way. I think it actually says something positive about the community in terms of being generally open minded, and that it's a place where people feel comfortable expressing themselves in that way.

 

Oh how I wish more people understood this.

The "founders" were only a few generations removed from times when you could quite literally be pulled apart by horses (drawn and quartered) for not subscribing to the state religion. The founders included descendants of Puritans from New England, some quite outspoken aetheists and agnostics, and who knows what else. Thank heavens they put those phrases in there -- to protect the practice of ALL religions OR NONE, without having the government in yer face about it.

(Which is why a recent statement by one of the "hopefuls" stating that the sitting President has "a secular agenda" cracked me up. Well duh... the Presidency is a secular JOB. If he had a religious agenda he'd be violating the Constitution. Ya know. )

 

$abbatha and $avage: Sorry, doh! Yes, OP means the original poster of the question, I was just being lazy

Taco has explained what was in my mind a lot more clearly than I did myself. Women in any creative field are only just beginning to find their own voices I think. I know there are singular female artists (Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley for instance) from the past but often women's art was always in the shadow of their male associates, and rarely ever touched on sexuality. It's just my personal opinion, but when the feminists of the 60's and 70's tackled the subject of sex they often reacted against the accepted male view of everything to do with sex because they needed to break everything down before anything new could be built. Reacting against something isn't pure self expression, it is influenced very heavily by the thing you are reacting against. The last few decades we are beginning to see women who just express themselves freely. They are tiny pockets of a new way of looking at the world that will hopefully become much more commonplace.

I was never arguing against the idea that Hollywood is a male dominated place that churns out the stale and predictable ad naseum, but I do see these tiny little shoots of new growth out there and I hope this will continue

 

taco & vonbonbon thanks for the clarification regarding what OP means.
I think that you're both right regarding the positive vibe of men that into the bjd hobby try to cope with the women way of thinking, aka playing with bjd female characters could help to get near to what women thinks and feels sometimes.
Still i feel that in other hobbies,like the fashion dolls collecting this just couldn't happens..cause fashion dolls female are just used as superficial characters more interested in fashions than in everything else.

 

Hey taco & vonbonbon thank you very very much for explaining ma about the meaning of OP crasis
I completely agree that in this hobby there's indeed a great and positive attitude of both female and male collectors, indeed there's even a lot of room for artistic side than in others hobby.
Still i find sometimes that in fashion doll hobby this is something which we're very very far from, as i see several times really negative behavior, and quite stereotypical and dismissive towards women expressed through pics of female dolls, most of the time shown as mean, fashion victims, addicted to surgery and botox, definitely the wrost stereotypes you can find on women.
It's a questions that jumped frequently in my mind in those past years, why there's this big differences between BJD hobby, and fashiond doll hobby, maybe as BJD hobby is much more crative and we trying just to fullfill our artistic side and view, instead fashion dolls hobby is a bit more confined.

 

Maybe because there is this stereotype that those interested in high fashion are superficial and vain? It's exactly that, a stereotype which unfortunately a lot of people buy into. McQueen was one of the greatest artists of the 20th/21st centuries in my book, and such a sad loss so young, but many people prefer to concentrate on the peripheral fashion world, which, just like the fine art world, and the film world, is full of highly visible loud, shallow people who just want to be part of something, anything. The hangers on.

It's sad that those cliches get so much attention in the fashion doll world, but I guess with BJDs, they are not aimed at one section of the doll loving world. They can be morphed into any type of human/creature that the buyer wants and so it's harder to pin down what exactly they are about. The old cliche about "anime looking dolls" doesn't really hold up to close inspection because there are people doing all kinds of things with their BJDs. For me the whole concept of BJDs are such an amazingly freeing thing for any creative person to have, and I hope that more men will see this potential and get into the hobby. I seriously think that we are standing here at the start line of something that has limitless potential, creative people have been freed by the development of personal computers, the way a person can now make a whole album in their bedroom and release it to the world through the internet, artists can create whatever they want without having to please anyone but themselves and they can deal directly with their public in a way that has existed before. The filters are gone. There is nothing to stop women expressing themselves freely and honestly anymore because we no longer have to ask the permission of a male dominated society if we can, if we are allowed to and if they will still love us if we express something that upsets, frightens, revolts them.

I love men, I am straight and have many good male friendships that I truly value, but society in general has too long been dictated by the male perspective. It has to change and it is changing, because women no longer need to ask permission for what they create put out there into the public domain. The art that women create with their BJDs is part of that change. If some women currently reduce their male dolls to sexual objects, then I think they are reacting against the centuries of female objectification we have been forced to put up with. No one should be reduced to an object but I believe it's just a reaction, a knee jerk, simple as that, and something I imagine that will die away as women start to become more confident in their own creative voice...

Hope any of that rambling makes sense!

 

vonbonbon makes a lot of sense to me.
Indeed Bjd world is just different,to me the characters have more connection with some artistic sense,while in fashion doll world i don't see that.
Most of the fashion dolls based characters are merely models,no feelings,no depth,no bright side..are mean,angry characters interested in gettin popularity,this is the bottom line,and are gay males to create this tropes. From this it seems to me that most men in the fashion doll world seeing as object women and nothing else,which is sincerely horrifying
Definitely i don't see this in BJD world,at least when i create a male character i base it onto something more than not fashion trend.

 

Very interesting topic indeed! I don't feel too strongly about objectifying either gender in the fantasy/nerdom world. I think that, plain and simple, most men and women like and want sex appeal in a character. I also think that women have become more open about their sexuality, which for some men may be a bit overwhelming and awkward more than anything else.

 

Cracked came out with another article that seems useful to our discussion. http://www.cracked.com/article_19758_the-5-most-insulting-ways-products-are-advertised-to-men.html

 

vonbonbon Your Rambling make a lot of sense,
and i do agree that in BJD hobby people are very creative bulding charatcres, quite original, also the artistic interest in more highter than in any other hobby beside modeling like warhammer.
I can report my experience of fashion dolls collectors and i can assure you that, sadly, as male dominant hobby, the women is objectifyed through pictures of female dolls, obviously, more than with cliches, is really a massacre, the view of women as human being is called into question,
for istance most of the collectors, as usual men, loves the superskinnier/anorexinx aestetic in female body sculpt simply as the this skinny/anorexis bodies wears better fashion dolls creations outfits,
some of them stated clearly and naively, without any shame or trace respect, that a curvy body, breasts and bootie expecially, ruin the style of the outfit in itself, is appalling at some point...
Thankfully i see nothing like this happens in BJD hobby.

nimbusdrake i can see your point, and i do find that is quite true, maybe man just need to cope with the fact that women are more confortable and open towards sexiness and sex in nowdays than in past

 

Completely agree

 

Okay, so I don't really know how to type this coherently and I do apologise but

I don't like over sexualised bodies because there's so much around that it feels like photoshopped bodies are REAL women, and I'M the fake. If that makes sense.

*Whew* So the thing is, my husband said "You want a male doll. It'll probably be ripped. And I'm a flabby, chunky guy. If I do my best to not hurt you with my games, will you help me and my self esteem by not having an over-sexualised bjd?"

My male doll is going to be the biggest geek ever. I've already bought him a mac. He's going to wear suits and waistcoats. This is the way he was always planned. I don't even want to SEE him naked. If I could buy a chunkier doll in 45cm tall, I would, because I find chubbiness attractive.

So.. It's a bit odd either way. I want a chubby doll to be the boyfriend of my female doll. But I can't, because they don't sell them. My husband wants to play Diablo as a female without a ridiculously over sexualised body, and he can't, because they don't include normal sized women.

I do think it's unfair for people to say "Maybe this will show all the guys who objectify women" because, I don't know who you live with but the only guy to see my dolls is my husband, and he doesn't objectify girls and gets upset with movies and games that do. It would be cruel of me to make the person I love feel uncomfortable when he treats me and my morals and opinions with respect. We should respect each other, and appreciate sexuality and beauty, just not go crazy with "perfection" is what I'm trying to say.

 

Sure, your DH is a Nice Guy who doesn't do the exploiting himself, lots of guys don't-- but he has to generally suck it up too, just the way that women do. If we're expected to Just Cope with it, then men can cope too. Mass media doesn't differentiate between men-who-like-ridiculously-oversexualized-and-exploited and men-who-don't... it doesn't even acknowledge the existence of anybody who doesn't want to look at it. It just sprays that shit out there, and covers us ALL with it. It's background radiation.

(A phrase I picked up when someone posted a link to this comic many pages back, but I'm rehosting now because I think it nails the issue square-on, and is also funny. =D)

If it's somebody in your own house that you have to live with-- naturally, that's another matter. The you have to strike a balance between you each havings things you like to look at, vs. catering to your partner's psyche. And, as anybody who's ever had a porn-enjoying boyfriend knows, getting this balance involves plenty of Give-and-Take from both of you! Friction happens mainly when the man doesn't want to Give, because he hasn't been socially conditioned for it the way women have. But they can be trained.

On the other hand, if it's some stranger on the internet-- it's none of his business what other people do with their dolls, and men who are made uncomfortable by eroticized male dolls actually do just have to deal with it. Period.

Also, yes, this does make sense:

Totally. It's the reason so many people with eating disorders get Total Despair = "I've binged and exercised and starved, and I STILL don't look like those pictures-- so I must be some kind of hideous freak! What's wrong with me?" Poor things don't realize they're not looking at a real depiction. Photoshopping these days goes way too far.... some of those girls might actually be pretty human beings underneath all the work, but you can't tell, because their skin has been so airbrushed that it no longer looks like skin, their makeup looks like spraypaint, and their faces and bodies have been carved into the shapes the art-director wanted. Chriiist, I mean, if you're airbrushing some highlights into her hair or covering up a herpes on her lip, fine, but keep the pelvis larger than the head!

 

I really think that Kiyakotari's said it all. Dolls are also a bit different from comics–they're more personal, meant for your own private hobby, whereas comics are out there in the public domain. Also, while you can very easily escape any doll that you don't like, the ubiquity of comics makes them much more difficult to avoid. And you know, all things being equal and whatnot, with all the objectification and sexualization of females out there, it's about time that there's some of the same objectification and sexualization of males here.

 

"They do it, so I can do it too!"/"We have to deal with it and so should they!" Are, frankly, childish and immature excuses for any action.

 

^ Coping with it is called having the maturity to deal with the grim meathook realities of mass-media poisoning. Denying that it exists, or hoping that it will magically stop if you just act really nice, is the childlike--nay, ostrich-like-- way to deal with it.

 

It's HOW you cope with it that defines the maturity level. People cope with issues in various ways, some more mature than others. Hiding or denying the issue doesn't work well, nor does oversexualizing males to spite them. LOL do we honestly think they'll stop by us doing that? Or do you think they'll be like, "I see women objectifying males, therefore it's okay that I continue!"? It will merely invoke a cycle, until a mature person comes along to break that cycle.

Mass media disgusts me, so I choose not to buy into it or promote it in any way I can. I like to inform people on the ways that it sways our thinking, and I believe education is the best way to solve a problem like this.