Scalpers vs. Shopping Services vs. Flippers is there really a difference?

While I know we're talking about dolls, you could easily replace "doll" with "tickets" and have the same argument. And FWIW, people have been arguing about this for a long, long time. I don't think anybody's come to a conclusion yet.

 

In tangible terms, I'd define the difference between a scalper and a shopping service the same way as neverything; the shopping service is purchasing a specific item on behalf of a specific individual, whereas a scalper is purchasing an item knowing that a ready market exists.

Still speaking in the tangible, another difference between scalping and shopping services is that scalping involves prospecting - you often see scalpers on Y!J overestimating a doll's demand and and being stuck with an item that doesn't sell for months. With shopping services, as the buyer is found before the item is acquired, there is no financial risk.

In general, I would put a shopping service above a scalper because one could project some sense of a cooperative effort (as opposed to a scalping transaction with is a simple buy/sell situation). However, in my mind, lower risk should equal a lower payout... same as any other financial gamble. Therefore, I find shopping services that charge a disproportionately high fee for their service predatory and distasteful. There are some shopping services I would never utilize because I feel that the fees that they charge are extraneous; I notice this in particular with a couple of Sato FCS deputies who actually live in Kyoto, but charge almost 1/3 of the cost of the doll for the order.

Scalping and flipping are separated by less tangible, more arbitrary definitions. For those, it comes down to intent. If someone purchases a doll with the goal of selling it at a profit, that is scalping; if someone purchases a doll with the intent of keeping it, but for whatever reason is unable to do so, that might be considered flipping if the price was substantially higher. Selling a doll at a profit doesn't always mean that is is either, though. It's impossible to divine people's intentions on individual cases... I think it's really only through looking at patterns of behavior that it's possible to apply the labels of "scalper" or "flipper."

I also base my feelings on the relative availability of the item. I am less likely to look unfavorably on someone for reselling a time-limited item than a number-limited item. If other complications or frustrations were involved in acquisition, I am also less judgmental. For example, with the Soom MDs, on a personal level I don't really care if people flip them. They are number limited, meaning anyone who had the money to buy them could have done so... and there are such broad stretches of time between ordering and delivery that one could find that their interest has completely gone cold. "Bonding" is an issue, really, because these dolls are too expensive to keep if they aren't fulfilling their purpose as happy-things.

I guess my position is confused. I am adverse to community members deliberately preying on members of their community. However, I think that labeling people without knowing their intentions can be dangerous, and throwing around epithets shouldn't be done lightly. Scalpers outside the community are purely business people. I would shake my little fist in annoyance and say "Damn them!", but I wouldn't regard them with the same social disdain as someone who tries to gouge people they know.

 

If a scalper was selling LE dolls w/BIN prices it would make a difference only if that price was publicized beforehand. My point about auction v. shopping service is just that auctions go up to whatever the highest bidder is willing to pay, potentially many times above initial sale price, whereas a shopping service is a set service fee above the value of the doll. In other words, to buy a doll from a shopping service, the buyer knows what they're getting and what they're going to pay beforehand. With a scalper, the buyer is competing with other buyers to buy the item, which potentially drives the price higher.

It is simply a matter of personal preference. I would prefer to buy something at a known price, even if it turns out to be a little higher, than have to fight with other bidders over an item. (And still need a bidding service to do it.)

Also, you might be right. Minus a language barrier, some Y!J scalpers might be very happy to work with us as a shopping service. A shopping service works with guaranteed sales, which must be easier than the fickle nature of the auction house.

My comment about cutting out risk is only relevant if the scalper / flipper or shopping service have an "inside connection". In such case, they would be able to get an item before anyone else, or when no one else could. An example would be a person who works for a company, who is able to pre-order LE items for that company before they are released to the general public. In that case, the worker would be "inside" the company, and wouldn't have to risk a lottery or a similar system. Like I said, I don't know how common that is in ABJDs. I know it's very common in other hobbies.

With the way you have described the Volks lottery, it seems like that kind of insider trading is difficult or impossible, thus even the Y!J scalpers and shopping services incur the same risks as the consumer.

If the 4500 yen guarantees a buyer a lottery number, than I am okay with it. As long as the buyer understands that there's no guarantee of a doll unless their number is drawn, than that is acceptable. You didn't really give much information on how this works. That said, I would never participate in it. It completely eliminates the "guarantee" that would make me purchase from a shopping service v. the secondary scalper / flipper market.

 

There are shopping services out there that have to raise their prices because of the work and time involved in being the middle man and they want to get paid. A modest fee is understandable.

A scalper well... no one really likes them but they are apart of almost every business industry arent they to a certain point.

A flipper well I really think its wrong what they do.

However I have notice a certain 'shopping service' as they call themselves sell things on ebay like a standard Megu doll for like 2500 dollars. Apparently theyhave gotten alot of nasty emails for this practice but they are clearly trying to take advantage on people who do not know the Volks or BJd market values.
It boils down to greed and its sad.

 

It's only ethical if the flipper buying dolls does not decrease the availability of dolls for other people at said event/ordering during a specific period - the flipper buying a doll does not, in and of itself, deny anyone else a chance to get a doll. That would be the inability to attend the event that's making them unable to get a doll.

If the supply is limited, the flipper becomes a scalper, whether we're talking BJDs, concert tickets, guns, or butter.

 

Using your example, to get VIP tickets (because we're talking about limited items) for the Jonas Brothers you might have to attend a special event. Or win a competition. Or know somebody who knows somebody who works with them. To get a special doll from Volks you have to be VIP member.

To take it one step further, somebody who knows nothing about dolls might assume $3000 for a Sard is the standard price. Or that you can waltz into a Volks store and purchase a LE.

Either way, you're relying on somebody with inside knowledge to get you something you want. In other words, it's the same argument. It's been argued before, and nobody's come to any conclusions. That's all I'm saying.

 

In the case fo flipping, does the circumstances under which they are sold matter to people?

Especially since SOOM dolls came up in most posts, and there is such a huge lag between buying and recieving. I know in the past with other hobbies, I have made a huge purchase and ended up with buyers remorse after recieving the item months later. By the time I recieved the item, I no longer had free funds, and selling it looked pretty good. I don't have much money to be spending it on things that just sit around, regardless of what others might claim about my morals.

I ask because I notice some people said ALL sellers of secondhand dolls are scalpers. Does that include people who sell their doll a year later to afford a different one that caught their eye, those downsizing, people that afford the hobby by investing in an initial doll, doing a fantastic faceup and reselling the result to afford another to do the same?

I personally would further narrow the definition of scalper to be someone who buys a doll purely for the intention of profiting off of it's limited availability.

I feel all three are an inevitable conclusion of collecting anything really, BJD's, My Little Ponies, Stamps, Coins...they're all the same in this regard. Really how much does it matter if someone "loved" the item befor they sell it? I don't think any of them are moral or not. Once we start applying morals to capitalism, the whole system falls apart. I don't think anyone is going to hell for reselling a doll. Besides, technically some of the biggest resellers can also have a different term applied: Small Business-owner. Owning a doll shop IS being a business owner, so is it any different if it's online or a brick and mortar collector doll store?

 

Are shopping services considered positive because we know they are part of the community?
I believe so. No one wants to pay shipping from a different country, and no one wants to buy a whole doll when they only want part of it, so SS help us get what we want without much extra cost (and in sometimes, a lot less extra cost)
If we know a scalper is part of the community does it change our feelings towards them?
Over all, I think yes. It doesn't much change mine. You have no idea what position someones in financially, so on a personal level it doesn't change my feelings towards them, I just probably wont buy from them.

Is there really a difference between flipping and scalping?
I mean, generally. A flipper doesn't buy the doll with the sole intention of reselling it for a mark up once it gets there. And a lot of times flippers will restore an issue with the doll their selling.

Is flipping better than scalping since the flipper is more obviously a member of the community?
Yeah, I think so. I don't feel like flippers are trying to get over on us like scalpers are.

Does it matter that a scalper is selling to a buyer they may or may not know, while a shopping service is buying for a specific buyer?
Not at all. That's what the internet is. It's our responsibility as buyers to get informed about who we're buying from.

What is an acceptable "fee" or commission for a shopping service?
I think paypal fees, plus a teeny bit is ok. The person running any thing like that goes through a lot of hardships to do it. However, they do get the points from the companies which can eventually get them a big discount on what they want.

Is a shopping service's time worth more than that of a scalper?
Yeah, because with a ss you're probably getting exactly what you want.



Do you personally feel one of the above categories is morally superior to the other and why?
I think the only one morally poor are scalpers. Because they take slots away from people who would have had the doll at regular price.

Do you personally feel one of the above categories is superior to the other and why?
Between Flippers and SS, both are the same. They allow us to get what we want.

If a scalped doll is selling for less than a shopping service charged, does said service still have the moral high ground?
With a SS, you have to agree to do it, and you can always find another to do it from. However, if a SS is charging more than a scalper, I think they'd change their ways quick or no one will use them. (Or, ya know, the scalper just isn't scalping THAT much).

Is someone who is taking away a chance for an item from someone at Japanese event different from someone taking away a chance for something you the respondent is able to apply for yourself?
I can't understand the wording of this right now (chalk it up to no sleep).


Can a service cross the line into scalping, and if so when/how?
They def can. If a SS is charging way over and above the items just to get them for you, then yes, they're crossing over into scalping. I think anything 10% over what its original cost is should automatically be considered scalping (whether the marketplace will pay it or not is a totally different story)

 

As defined by the OP, I don't think there is much moral or practical difference between flippers, scalpers and buying services. However, I don't agree with the original definitions.

A "flipper" in other fields, such as real estate, buys a property and improves it and sells it for a profit. If I buy a blank doll, give it a nice faceup and eyes and wig and resell it for a profit, that makes me a flipper. I don't believe I'm doing anything morally repugnant. You could say I'm benefiting the community because I have improved that doll.

A "scalper" in other fields, such as ticket sales, buys large numbers of limited items, usually before the general public can do so, then resells them for a huge profit. The reason this is illegal in many places is because of the "insider trading" aspect. If I know someone at Volks and can buy five LEs under the table before the lottery (I don't, so don't get excited )-- yes, that would be wrong, because I would be depriving five other buyers from getting a limited item at regular price.

I don't believe reselling is wrong in itself. It's the circumstances that make it right or wrong.

 

This pretty much sums up my feelings perfectly. While I may personally think it is distasteful to deliberately seek a profit by preying on members of the community, I also do understand from a logical standpoint that it is a business.

This comes up again and again on DoA about increased cost of secondhand limiteds. Scalpers make a profit because people are willing to pay the increased value. It's just how a collector's hobby market works. People can complain all they want about how it's wrong or unethical, but if someone out there will pay the increased price there's not a thing anyone can do about it. Scalpers/Flippers just come with the territory, as do shopping services when items are limited to an event or location.

For me, I do see shopping services differently than scalpers/flippers, depending on the profit margin. It's more like a business partnership entered into on both sides. Person A wants something, but doesn't have the means to get it, so Person B steps in and does the work of acquiring the item for a fee. That's basically the way any business works. A service for a fee. Do I find overpriced fees distasteful and sometimes ridiculous? You betcha. But I just take my business elsewhere, or choose not to use the service at all.

I don't quite define the difference between scalping and flipping the way the OP does... I have different definitions. But to save debating semantics, I'll just say that I agree with armeleia. I personally dislike scalping because it comes off as deliberately cornering a market within the hobby as a profit. I have always felt that way about scalpers of any item, be it tickets or a collectible item.

Flipping something like a time-limited doll doesn't bother me, because they didn't corner a market or reduce other people's chances at an item for personal gain. If someone is going to re-sell a doll, there's no reason to sell it below its market value.

 

I guess, I was trying to say, I personally don't find any of them "morally repugnant" and you would never be able to quote me otherwise. I honestly think it's the more vocal people that tend to really "hate" them. I don't understand why one would apply morals to any of the three. That said, I see why you are posing the question, as so many others had responded along the lines you were expecting.

I also realize, In my response I misunderstood a post earlier who was hypothetically asking about secondhand selling = scalping in response to Gus's comment that scalping's wrongness is in direct relation to how much profit is made by the person selling.

To those who consider flipping repugnant, I ask:
Why should someone who is reselling their doll (regardless of the reason) go below market price? Out of kindness? People have bills to pay and mouths to feed...I don't expect people to give things away. In the world of collectables a thing is worth what the highest bidder will pay, that's why price-guides always have a range of values that one can expect. I wouldn't call that greed.

 

I find it interesting too, and I'd go farther and say there is a part of the BJD community that does not feel a private seller should make a profit, at all. Look at all the threads discussing whether sellers "have a right" to pass along expenses, shipping, etc. or whether they "have a right" to ask more for a secondhand doll than the original price. In what other hobby would you see attitudes like that? Other threads are covering those issues, but they seem related to your question, rkold.

 

I think part of the hobby-wide vitriol against scalpers is all a part and parcel of the emotional investment that is prevalent in the BJD hobby... it affects a lot of the general "social opinion", I think. And one of those is the philosophy that scalpers are "morally repugnant" (to re-use a phrase from earlier in the thread).

This emotional investment is also visible in the attitudes regarding sale of dolls, such as the need to justify the reason behind the sale of a doll. (And the fact that some reasons such as "I'm bored with it" can be met with negativity). Also, the general belief that owners should "bond" with their dolls. Or that one should only buy a doll if one "really loves that doll".

A good part of it is that these dolls are so customizable, which means that a lot of personal effort can go into them sometimes. Also, they are realistic enough that they are very easy to anthropomorphize... all of this adds to the fact that people can become pretty emotionally involved even though it's really just an inanimate object, and a sale is really just a business transaction.

Another part of it is that the doll community is generally a closely-knit, helpful group of fellow collectors, especially in a group like the DoA community. So when a seller within the community is seen as "taking advantage" of others, it can hurt a little more, or feel like more of a "betrayal" (though that's a stronger word than I'd like to use).

Even knowing all this from a logical standpoint, I do admit I still fall prey to the emotional attachment, and I do "bond" with most of my dolls. I just can't help it.

 

It all ultimately seems here to be related to context. I come from a hobby where it's expected you either gut your best friend when you can or they'll gut you and it's all good. It was kind of refreshing to see that this hobby community is a 'kinder gentler place'.... uh, in some respects anyway.

I've scalped, I've flipped and I've definitely let hot things go for the price I paid when I knew I could have held an auction and gotten way more or simply doubled the price. I did what felt right to me at the time for each item considered and my understanding of the context of each sale.

The trouble with social context like this is there are always jealous greedy members whom you can't please no matter what you do or how you do it.

When it comes to buying I simply look at the item, the asking price and whether I want to pay that for it. If the equation works for me then I'm not going to care whether it's a flipper, scalper or shopping service. I've patronized them all.

Raven

 

I can't give you an absolute number of what constitutes an "acceptable profit margin" for me. It depends on how much work is involved, how difficult obtaining the item is, and what the shopping service's overhead costs may be. The "acceptable markup" would vary based on the particular order. It would also vary from person to person... and even from doll to doll, depending on how badly a person wanted the doll.

For me, no, a shopping service can not cross the line into scalper/flipper, because they take the order beforehand. Scalping/Flipping is buying a doll without a prospective buyer, but hoping to make a profit. Shopping services take orders before purchasing the doll. It's not a matter of "crossing a line", it's an either/or. Either the person bought the doll with a guaranteed buyer set up, or they didn't.

Once again, it's part of that "business partnership" aspect, and is a somewhat subjective line created by social beliefs and pressures. By engaging a shopping service, the buyer is participating in the process from the get-go, making it a partnership in getting the item. Buying from Y!J is an impersonal transaction made AFTER the item is already originally purchased by the seller, which creates a different emotional impact.