Scalpers vs. Shopping Services vs. Flippers is there really a difference?

I think this is starting to turn into kind of a nitpicky semantics/details debate, so I think this will be my last post... I fear I'm just starting to repeat myself.

Then it is a shopping service selling a surplus amount of goods. It's still not a "scalper". And if they are just saying it was for a "guaranteed buyer" but there really never was a buyer in the first place... Well, as has been said, it's a very slippery slope to start second-guessing people's motives.

"Okay" is such a vague term... It is technically legal for anyone to charge what the market will bear on a luxury item, so I would say it is "okay". Do I personally dislike it? Yes. But that doesn't make it "not okay". I dislike a lot of things, but my personal distaste for something has nothing to do with whether the item in question is "okay".

I consider them someone who is charging more for their service than I want to pay, period. By "unacceptable", I don't mean "unacceptable by anyone's standards". I mean "unacceptable for me to enter a business transaction".

As I said before, I consider a scalper someone who deliberately corners a part of the market on a number-limited item for personal profit, without a buyer already secured. So no, a shopping service that charges too much is not a scalper, in my opinion. For me, the actual price increase itself doesn't determine whether a person is a scalper or not. Your opinion may vary, and that's fine.

I guess I'm not reading the same threads as you are then. I've seen some box opening threads with a "thank you" notice for a shopping service. I have not seen an overwhelming trend of people naming their dolls after shopping services, or people treating them with some kind of hero-worship. I also don't see anything a shopping service does as a "misdeed", any more than I think Starbucks charging $5 for a cup of coffee is a "misdeed". It's just a higher price than some would pay.

Yes, they are a business. They are also a business doing a service that someone really truly appreciates. There is nothing wrong with thanking someone who has helped you (all "you's" are a general "you", not speaking specifically to rkold here) out. Even if you paid them for it, they still helped you. Would it have been possible to purchase the doll without the shopping service? A lot of times the answer is no. It may just be business for the service, but there's no harm in being appreciative. A bride can make a speech at a wedding reception and thank the cake decorator for a beautiful cake, even though they paid the decorator. Even if that cake decorator is an expensive one that cost more than many people would pay.

Likewise, it is a business transaction and I don't think it's necessary to post a thank-you, either. "Thank-you" messages aren't an obligation, but I don't see why it should be an issue if someone does express gratitude.

I guess I just don't see why it's so odd for someone to be grateful that a shopping service gave them the opportunity to get a rare or hard-to-get doll. Obviously if the person paid the service fee, then they considered the doll worth the extra cost.

 

Because nobody ever gets their panties in a wad when someone asks someone else "Can you run out and get a quart of milk for me?" when it's much more convenient for the other person to do it. Even if there's a chance the milk might get sold out, and if the person gets their gas money paid for. There is no market speculation involved here.

Everyone (except those turning a profit) gets upset when there's a natural disaster that cuts off the supply of milk and people who don't need milk for themselves, or their friends, buy it up solely to price gouge people.

The demand creates the shopping service to access the supply. Shopping services wouldn't be necessary if you could order the items from any location on the planet, provided you got in at the right time. Scalpers would still exist. The scalper tries to artificially increase demand by cutting off supply, at least at normal prices, and at the very least, profits from the low supply.

 

Except the service is not doing a favour for a friend. They're making money off your inability to purchase a doll yourself, the same as a scalper is making money off your inability to purchase a doll yourself. Both a service and a scalper are buying dolls for a profit - though I will say with a service there is no risk as profit is insured, a scalper has no guarantee a doll will sell for profit - with no intention of keeping them for themselves and both take away dolls from people who attended the event hoping to buy a doll for themselves.

The only difference sI can see between the two of them is that a shopping service is generally solicited beforehand by someone with a specific goal in mind, and they more openly move in the doll community and are often seen as helpful people while the scalper is condemned as being morally reprehensible.

Neither is immoral, and while I may find scalping, flipping, and certain shopping services and their prices distasteful, taste is not an arbiter of moral right and wrong. I can always choose to take my business elsewhere.

I've never understood the vitriol heaped on scalpers by the BJD community, especially when that same community has no problem with shopping services who are also making money off of them, and often in more ways than people realize. Points from Volks are no laughing matter, and every single Volks shopping service racks those up on top of their fees. Buying multiple guidebooks at a Dolpa provides more chances to win gift dolls like Seitenshi. I doubt a shopping service would gift a Seitenshi they won at a dolpa to the customer whose fees they used to get the guidebook.

I don't think I need to offer my gratitude to someone for performing the service I paid for them, as my money should be all that is required for them to do the job, and I am not sure why other people do.

 

It depends on how the person presents it, I guess; I am a great believer in transparency. It's a business. They're going to make money in whatever way that can. However, as the points would be useless to a commissioning buyer (presumably they do not have access to those stores, otherwise I can't imagine why they would bother hiring a shopping service) the point is moot as the shopping service keeping the points isn't actually "costing" the buyer anything.

(My feelings about points/etc. in group orders are different because group order are not presented as for-profit ventures. People who run group orders are doing so supposedly for a shared benefit of a group group... so getting points, perks, and discounts becomes more of a sticky wicket.)

This goes into what I was saying about watching for patterns. I don't think that someone can necessarily be classified as a scalper/flipper/etc. based solely on one transaction... unless they flat out say it. (And some people do, oddly enough.)

That is the million dollar question, really. I think it comes down to what "feels" predatory. Sometimes it's a percentage of the cost, sometimes it's a dollar value. Sometimes it's how much you want it. Sometimes it's the demand for the item and the rarity. I just paid for the head of my dream, holy grail doll. He's rare, he's beautiful, I wanted him more than any other doll. I paid the same amount for the head that the fullset doll originally cost. I don't consider the price scalping or in any way unfair.

With services, I guess I am just a bit skeptical. When it is a large shopping service with a full staff/office/taxes, I am less bothered by a higher commission rate. It is a true business with overhead. When it's someone who offers services through DoA without even paying for their own website...? I guess I feel that it shouldn't be as high because their expenses aren't as high. I also think that the amount of time, money, and irritation should factor in. TBH, a shopping service for a Dolpa doll? Geez, that is a full day wasted. A day that may start a 3 am as you line up. But going on a fifteen minute train ride out to Sato to place an order?

That just verges on sycophantic... And I've never seen an example of it. My gratitude is expressed through the commission I pay and that's it.

 

I agree with this statement. For me, I have sold many dolls in my time in the hobby. Every single one of them I had every intent to keep. Some I have kept the entire time I have been in the hobby, others I have sold. Most I have sold at less than what I paid including shipping and face up cost. There are dolls that have been in high demand and I get hounded with PM's as soon as it goes up. Then I put it up for auction and let people decide the final price. There was one time where I bought a doll (be it only the 2nd doll I had bought that year). I got it in a month later and it was not for me. It was a limited time doll and I had an impulse buy. I put it up for what I asked and got slammed by PMs...so I did an auction style sale. I then got called names and told I had taken someone else chance of buying a doll at retail price away. It was frustrating because in reality I only sold the doll for $50 more than I paid and I did not set the price, other owners did. My whole point in telling this story is, I am in no way a flipper, but people are very quick to judge and can be very harsh. We cannot divine people's intentions. If those who had lashed out at me had looked at my "pattern" they would have seen a girl who had lost more money on dolls in the past 2 years than had gained. I am almost fearful of putting dolls up in the market place at times because if I do an auction and it is bid up to market value, I might get flamed or at least looked down on (even if it is silently). I just think that people judge others to quickly sometimes and perhaps it is a bit unfair to label others flippers just for getting the market value of a doll.

 

Basically I do not like attending the debate thread, because I cannot read nor write English smoothly and quickly like as native speakers. The free time of my life is limited, and I'd love to use my time not for fighting, but for fun and pleasure.

So my post may be only this. I'm sorry I may not read all of counters against me.
However I post this as one of the shopping services. Although I'm not doing it now for my sickness.

Before I join in DoA, I was on eBay as mainly a buyer, sometimes as a seller of the dolls and a seller of the items of my other hobbies. I was asked to get items from Japan several times through the option of eBay member contact, and I was doing it for free.

After I had joined in DoA, I had gotten a lot of PMs from members whom I do not know at all but who had known I live in Japan, and they asked me to get limited items from Japan, usually for free. I had been doing it for a long time in obscurity, but it invited both wonderful friends and bold-faced repeaters.

Some of the bold-faced repeaters even started often PMing or e-mailing me as if we are old, close friends and they had requested and requested and requested to get items from Japan for free, requested me to bid on Y!J for free, requested me to get even Blythe, rare fabrics, prop, clothes for human, etc... I can say them even as harassment. Even while I was writing I was sick in my page, I sometimes got similar PMs, one of them sent me a PM and asked me to bid on auction, she wrote she "already knew" I was sick in that PM...

Those were very personal things though, my husband had been watching the fact that I was helping various persons and often said I should not use the limited time of our life for people, not my friends at all, as a volunteer, because I am a mother of two children. Actually, some of the bold-faced people were writing to me kindly and politely until they got their items, and did not even send the mail which tells they received their dream items, which made me annoyed a lot. Such things could be the stress for me. My husband knew it, too, and said I should request fees. I thought it was reasonable.

On the other hand, the number of the lovely friends who knows me very well increased year by year. We sometimes help each other, I have done some FCS for free, I have gotten limited dolls for free, although I did not want to open this for long years, because I have hated to invite more of the bold-faced people who suddenly starts mailing to me as if we are close friends.

I've done a lot of FCS as one of the shopping services, and know some of you
call me something which I do not like to be called as, but I have always been proud of my work's quality. And I think some of them had not make efforts to imagine how much I work. What a big number of hours I spend for each order! You do not know I had to write some dozens of e-mails to difficult customers who even do not know what type dolls they really want for the limited one chance. Look at all faces of dolls that I sent to my customers. Read feedbacks which were left towards my work before you call my fee is unreasonable. (My fee had been changed several times, for the exchange rate, or for the hardness of this work. I also eat PayPal fee.)

I know some of the members of the SS and had talked with, and I know they have had similar experiences which have not opened not to invite more trouble to them...I guess many of the SS members may be in similar situations with me.

I know a lot of people who call other people scalpers or flippers also sell even used yellow/junk dolls for higher prices, they sometimes do scalping or flipping and I am always amazed how brazen-faced they are.

 

Suck it up and fly to Japan, then, if you want the goods but don't want to support scalpers or shopping services. It's the lesser of two "evils", if you want something you can't get yourself. You're hiring someone to do something for you, so they're not going to work for free, even if they don't have a physical storefront and overhead. And points are, essentially, a volume discount - the shopping service doesn't get a wholesale price from Volks, just add it to the cost of doing business. Or don't do the business.

The scalper has already done their business by the time you're dealing with them, and you've got no say in the matter.

Even in regular retail, there's a significant difference between "normal markup" and "price gouging", it's called buying snacks at a movie theater. Legal, but disliked by everyone that doesn't work there. There's also a difference between regular and valet parking, but not the same difference.

 

I feel so far that the thread has been very even and calm in regards to the topic and has not attacked anyone, but Ria, I don't think anyone in this thread has said that shopping services are bad people or is implying that you are.

Whatever your personal reasons for running your service, you still made a decision to run a business wherein you make money off of other doll owners. No one forced you to open a shopping service, so you must find something in it that benefits you. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, and I assume that you probably take your earnings and put them towards your own doll hobby. I just don't think your money made off a doll owner is any different than the money a scalper on y!j makes off of a doll owner. One is not more "clean" than the other, I suppose you could say.

 

Nowhere did I say I won't support scalpers or shopping services. To be honest, I don't care where my dolls come from so long as the transaction is smooth. I'll go with the option that fits my budget the best, and sometimes, the y!j or ebay scalper is the least expensive option.

I just don't feel grateful to either option for providing me a good that I've paid for, just like how I don't feel grateful to the sales person who finds me shoes and rings me up for them or a waiter who fills my glass in a timely manner. It ceased to be a favour when I gave them money to do it. Neither scalpers nor shopping services are operating out of the kindness of their hearts.

My whole point is in the end, all of the options become the same to me, and I don't see any of them as being immoral. Some people do, and I don't understand that position.

 

The only marketplace morality that I find applicable is this: Does the seller (of whatever stripe) have a good reputation? Do they send what you paid for in a timely manner, safely packaged and properly documented? Are they serious and conscientious?

If so, and the price is right, that is all that matters. If people will pay $500 for a Yo then it has a relative value of $500 and that's that. You might have rather paid $350 for it, but you'll have to wait to get lucky, or find one that's currently out of fashion (though it's still unlikely to be that inexpensive).

Gratitude may be best expressed with one's feet; ie, would you shop with this seller again?

You can find it all distasteful, but where does that get you? I don't really understand the point of this debate, personally. What would you like to see? No scalping/flipping/services? Well... that would make the dolls shoot up in price even more!!
Be careful what you wish for!

Raven

 

I have bought from pretty much all the groups being discussed in this thread.

I never successfully scalped a doll, but I tried to once. I got a valuable doll that folks wanted it and I wanted to sell her high to get the Reisner that I have wanted for a while. I knew I was going to have to pay big bucks for him, so I tried. I ended up bonding with the doll and never sold her. That is what I think a scalper is.

When I was in Japan for a dolpa, I saw a lot of people that knew nothing about dolls on the line in front of me. I met them because they were also Brazilians and had been hired for the day to get the dolls. I thought it was pretty nasty because ultimately they were the reason many people lost their doll. I call their boss a flipper. I hate them really.

When the LA store opened I hired a gal to attend the dolpa and get a Shizu for me. I paid her accommodations, food and a fee of $100 to get my Shizu. She lost her That was a shopping service.

Some people buy dolls with the intend of profiting from their winnings, whereas others just sell them for a higher price because they need the money to buy other stuff. That is the difference between a flipper and a scalper IMO.

People set up business where there is a market niche, so it is really up to you to decide who you are going to give your money to. I say that in a community like DOA, to profit more than 30% the value of a doll that you bought with the intention to sell is predatory (flipper). I say that because the person would be using the resources of the forum to take advantage of us hobbyists. I would frown upon someone who has no interest in dolls come here and begin flipping dolls just for profit.

Raven: I have always been interested what others think of these terms. Sometimes a debate helps clarify terms to us hobbyists.
Armeleia: In regards to the Soom MDs, what if someone did not have money that particular month? Should he/she pay higher prices? We never know what Soom will come up with, so it is hard to save up ahead of time.

Rkold you Rhot on topic here. Thanks!

~Gus

 

It seems, though... that clarifying these terms is not really that important. If there's no moral value judgment on who's selling but for how responsible they are, then what "brand" you want to call them seems a bit irrelevant. Or does to me anyhow. If they're a responsible seller and you want to buy their item at their price then it's good.

One can always make judgments for reasons that are not completely rational, eg on aesthetic grounds (what one finds tasteful or not) and that's fine, but I'm not sure that kind of thing constitutes a worthy debate.

That's what I can't really figure out about this particular thread. A better debate might be "Should we ban scalpers and flippers and shopping services, why or why not?"

Raven

 

I really don't think either of the three options for purchasing limited dolls is immoral. I'd personally use whatever method was safest for sending my money and the inexpensive option out of the three. Paying a a middle man for a service or paying for a doll someone has already gone through the process on their own without me having to pay for it, I don't see a moral differance. As long as the doll arrives in the condition I expect I'm not judging how the seller got it, it's not my business.

"Flipping" is wrong in my eyes but honestly, I'm not a finger pointer. There's no doubt it happens here on DoA but I can't assume nor do I want to. What is the differance between buying a doll with intention to sell it at inflated market value and "not bonding" with a doll and selling it for market value? Everyone selling a limited doll for quite more than they paid for are making an arguably "immoral" profit for themselves by asking much more than the original company price. However, such business is certainly allowed on DoA and people are happily paying an inflated price so assumptions are best left out of the equation. I wouldn't purchase a used doll with such a high markup personally, but not because I feel I'm getting scalped. More so, because Im not willing to pay market value.

 

Okay, so it's kind of an emotional bean-counting exercise, I think I get it now, and you have some interesting points. For example I never knew shopping services/individuals were getting points, but now that I know it I have to say "Great!" "Good for them!", even... Really. You got to live in Japan, but not all of us can do that. I'm not going to worry about somebody getting something that I can't, simply by virtue of where we live.

I'll still be grateful to the person for offering the service (if they do a good job) simply because I might have had no chance at all otherwise.

Maybe someone in Japan didn't get the doll and I did, but that's life. I'm not going to burn in hell for it or anything, I really don't understand why it's such a big deal?

The idea of a cap on flipping or whatever. I don't have any opinion on that, that would be up to the mods to decide as this is their board. I don't really care if someone makes a giant profit on a doll for whatever reason. Personally I never participate in auctions that are run on this board, I only bid on ebay or YJ auctions, just because I prefer to do it that way, but I don't mind that people do it here if they are so inclined.

Raven

 

I like that you included definitions of the terms in the debate. I consider there to be two forms of scalping:

1. Buying and selling quickly to make a profit.
2. Buying and pricing a item well above the going market price.

In the first case you are buying at market value, in the second, you're a sucker who paid too much money. Sometimes it is hard to establish what a good price for a doll is, but there is a reason people list dolls that are reselling for $1200 for $4000 on Y!J - eventually someone goes for it and they make a huge profit. To me, that is the kind of scalper I really hate because I feel they are taking advantage of others, even if that person should have researched more.

To me, flipping is a term used to give benefit of the doubt to the seller in terms of their motives. The reason is, motive counts. Many DOA members have bought a doll, decided it isn't for them, and sold it. We want the benefit of the doubt for our actions, so we give others the benefit of the doubt for their actions.

Let's say you have an emergency you survive. Scenerio one, someone performs CPR and breaks your rib, but they were trying to help. Scenerio two, someone hates you and pounds on your chest and breaks your rib. The outcome is the same: you live and you have a broken rib. But the way you feel about each scenerio is different. Feelings are important. It may not be logical, but people are not logical. People are emotional.

Anyways, I think this is a really great topic for debate.