Scalping and YOU.

Amen to that!!!!

 

I have delt in the horse world for many many years and in many ways it mirrors this issue with the dolls.
A horse is a companion, a pet, a friend. A horse is ALSO livestock, a work animal, a luxury item, and a vehicle.
Is it wrong that he is both? Is he is a pet, then he shouldn't work, right? But if he doesn't work, he can become bored and self destructive which is also bad. Dolls can't hurt themselves, but let me explain...

I buy and sell horses. I train them, feed them, exersize and groom them- and I love it. They are wonderful creatures full of emotions and personality. But not every horse I get is my pet, I buy the vast majority to sell them to someone else. This doesn't mean I don't care where they go, it just means I use them as a means to keep from getting a "real" job full time.
My hope for every horse I buy with the intention to train and re-sell is that he will become someone else's pet, companion, and love. I do my best to ensure he goes to someone who knows how to take care of him and who will make him happy. I would never sell a horse to someone I felt would hurt or neglect him.
I'm sure doll sellers hope whoever buys the dolls they sell will love them. It's our nature that we want our things to be appreciated. I don't think any seller wakes up in the morning hoping one of their creations or purchases will end up discarded under a bed or broken in the trash.
A seller does not bond with every doll, or perhaps in some cases the fit just isn't right (hence the sale) and lack of bond.

In short, money makes the world go round, if you wish to make a profit and the market makes that possible, go for it. I don't feel it is immoral in any way. We all need money to eat, and if your hobby can support you and you are happy, who should complain?
Are prices high, yes. But do people pay them, yes. This means the market can bear it and prices are at the correct level. I would love to spend less, as would anyone, but if you are WILLING to pay the high dollar then it will always exist.

Maybe I'm just one of those immoral people. But when the day is done, whether I'm talking about dolls, horses, cars, or something else- I hope that whatever I sell makes someone happy. I also hope I got the money it was worth, no more and no less.

 

Are prices truely inflated, or are they simply showing the quality of and demand for the doll? It's not really the sellers who determine the price of a doll, believe it or not.
If it is "overpriced" to the point nobody would buy it, the seller must either keep it or lower their price.
As for selling off one collection to get what you want. It is a trade off. I have sold comic books to get a rare issue of something else. I would like to have both, but in the end I wanted the rare issue MORE and therefore I made the trade.
I would love to be able to buy these dolls for $100 a piece. But that does not do justice to anyone but ME. That would mean in the end, the artist would have to be paid less, the workers who put them together paid less, the face up artist paid less. The company would be unable to expand to new pruducts for lack of revenue from existing models as each new model or accessory takes money to develope and produce.
SO where is the sacrifice then? Quality? Diversity? The importance of artistic beauty? Availability?

When you talk about making a hobby affordable to the point that everyeone can have everything they want, think about how many they have to make in order to make up for lost revenue.
And if the dolls can be sold second hand by scalpers for such cheap prices, then they simply won't sell them because it isn't in their best interest.
So then what do you do with companies who don't sell internationally? Not get what you want? Wait for them to go international? Take an over seas trip (which would MORE than make the cost of the doll what it is currently in almost every case)?

With single re-selling instances (where someone has one doll to resell only, a personal collection piece), shouldn't you take into account the money they spent on it beyond its original price? The face-up, clothes, wig, eyes, putty, and coating? What about the time to sand seams and keeping them safely cared for?
On that note, there is PERSONAL worth added to the doll. There is a certain amount which will make an owner happy, or at least "ok" with parting with their doll. It is their price.
Would you be happy to sell your house for $50. when you spent over 1000x that much to buy it? Of course not, it is your HOME and you could not replace it or upgrade to something nicer for that price. You may be forced to sell your house for any number of reasons, but that doesn't mean you want to lose your butt on it.
The buyer may not be happy with your price at 50k more than you bought it for. But you kept it in good condition and maintained it. Also, they would not appreciate it if you sold it for $50 and may have just bought it to trash it at that price. I mean, what's $50 anyway? A trip to the movies? A nice dinner? Who KNOWS what they might do with a house at that price. They are just as likely to burn it down as appreciate it.

When talking price, I feel there is much more than just dollars and cents involved. Responses of all sorts welcome.

 

I don't think the horse situation is quite the same. You do buy horses to resell, but it seems you also take the time and effort to train those horses. That is labor and you deserve to be paid for that labor. A person who goes to a website and clicks a button, on the other hand, is not making any type of effort whatsoever. They are just taking away the opportunity from those who truly want the doll or item so they can turn around and sell it at a ridiculous markup on DoA. To me there is something especially repulsive about this when it occurs here. This is a community first after-all, and seeing members take advantage of other members does not sit well with me.

I also highly doubt the scalpers care whether something makes someone happy or not, I think they care more about whether they are getting paid. But then I'm not a scalper, I could be wrong...

 

I agree with that and certainly see your point. But let me trek back to the horses a moment. If I go to equinehits.com or another site and see a ranch selling several horses (we'll say they're trained and ready to go, for the sake of trying to make this more apples to apples), I see that these are horses of good and rare breeding (much like limited edition dolls) we'll say they're Sir Raliegh Moon bred. There aren't many of them and they are highly coveted by people who know the pedigree.
Is it wrong of me to offer to buy them all and resell them individually, then have them shipped directly from the ranch they are at? I have not altered their training, I have not fed them or done anything. I simply saw an opportunity and moved on it.
From that group purchase, I can advertise elsewhere to expand my prospective customer base, such as in the California Horse Trader, Hoofbeats Magazine, or The Livestock Exchange. I can even use photos posted of the animals from their original group sale to show to other people.
In essence I have done next to no work and will be making a profit. On the other hand, my re-posting of each horse individually allowed people who maybe don't visit equinehits.com to find them.

There is some "taking advantage" I will agree, but I don't think it is malicious in nature. A website has no way of knowing if someone really "wants" the doll or wants to make some extra money by reselling it. If they were worried about it, they could put caps on the maximum number which could be bought by a sinlge person or to a single address.
It is a loop hole in the case of purchase for resale, but it widens the market and boosts the resale value of the doll in question, which in the end benefits the collector.
This is a community, you are right. But if one person can go click the button, can't someone else do the same thing? I don't believe scalpers have exclusive access which others are denied. If you really want it, you'll be on the website at midnight waiting for the doll to be available, just like the scalpers.

 

And I know people who have done exactly that, but they still came out empty-handed. When it's a really coveted doll everyone is there at midnight. And getting that doll seems to be pure luck. One second could mean the difference between getting a doll or losing it. But if the scalpers weren't there then we'd have more members getting those dolls directly at retail. Instead, we have scalpers who are DoA members turning around and selling the doll they just bought online to fellow DoA members for $1000 over retail. The very same members who genuinely want that doll and were also anxiously waiting at midnight for it. Like I said, it disgusts me.

Of course, we at least have the new rules that don't allow scalpers to sell dolls not in hand yet. Hopefully, that will have some sort of deterrent effect. It also might help with scamming issues as well.

 

ok i get some of the points made with the horses.

put work into what ever you should be able to mark up. Thats cool.

other points with out the horse stuff

on another hand wait out like everyone else to get a chance to get a doll and some profit (with out HUGE mark up) I can see that all so but with some moral error.

selling off some of your dolls or doll stuff at the going rate to get a doll. I can see that.

but setting the price at a huge mark up knowing that you have a corner on the market is very very wrong moral and money wise. that to me is scalping. To get a edge on setting prices on such low numbers is easy. Give me 10 grand to buy a limited that has had 60 made with no limit set on how many I can buy or I'll have people buy them for me if there is a limit. Your going to pay my set rate. Other people will see how much people will pay me for such a doll and I'm sure they would charge as much because that would be the going rate. That is how you inflate a price the fast way.

 

well I wasn´t really talking about cold feet or having second thoughts^^

my point is more like you see this user crying all over the board with how much they want this new limited doll and how they want to enter the after event

and then when they get it...

surprise surprise...My mom ate an ant!!! I need money to pay the surgeon!!oooh I have to sell it!!!yes, at twice it´s base price!!!!!

I think we all know we get lots of this kinda stuff here, on ebay..everywhereXD

 

Thanks for clearing me up on that. Good point.

 

I guess because I am new to this community, I didn't realize that the topic of discussion was scalpers INSIDE the forums. That does seem quite out of place. I guess I have a new question and hope I have not offended you in previous posts (as it was not my intention). Why does DoA allow these scalpers into its membership? I know there is a basic screening to get activated, and then a waiting period to use the marketplace etc.

Are they allowed because they have items people want and therefore demand dictates that they shouldn't be excluded?
Is it in the interest of free market enterprising?
Or would the rules pertaining to the detection and extraction of such members be too complex or subjective?
I am genuinely curious as to why, in a place where reputation and community seem to be of paramount importance, that scalping (in the manner which you described) is tolerated.

 

I think its the ' rules pertaining to the detection and extraction of such members be too complex or subjective?'

You cant tell, just becase someone is selling a limited that they are a scalper. Some people order a limited, get it and dont love it. Some people order a limited then get their cc bills or something else that requires significant cash and have to sell. Some people who really want an item will get really nice friends to help their chances by entering a lottery to better their chances of winning and both win, so one extra doll.

So you cant always tell if someone is a scalper or not.

You cant force someone to sell it for the same price they paid (and that price would include shipping and any customs). For a lot of reasons. How long after a limited original sale would you consider someone a scalper. I've found dolls now, that were for sale only a couple of years ago, I'll pay more than the original if I want the doll. But when do we stop calling it scalping and call it a resale? Also, if they banned the selling of limiteds on DOA for a fixed period of time after the release, they would just go sell elsewhere (ebay, y!japan) and there would be more people competing for the same dolls.

The stopping of presales and sales for 'friends' was a great idea. I think it will cut down on scalpers. I don't think anyone can eliminate it.

 

That's basically the main concern about it. Many of the mods don't like scalpers. However, it's just too difficult a thing to police and would create too much involvement for us in Marketplace transactions. We've had a policy of non-involvement for a while now. It was necessary to put the policy in place because of liability issues. So in the end, it has to be up to the buyers to decide whether or not to buy from these people. I personally do my part by not buying from these people. I'm hoping more people will decide to avoid these scalpers as well. We highly, highly discourage scalping but it's not something we are really capable of policing at this time. We can only try our best using the current rules we have in place. Hopefully these rules will lessen the scalping that goes on here.

 

Hmm, from reading this thread, I think I should change how I sell LE's that I get and don't bond with. To not look like a scalper, I should wait a couple months after getting the doll to sell it (nevemind that it may only take me a week to decide I don't want it, and that the market value may only increase in that time) and/or I should only sell via eBay auction starting at the price I paid (of course with a very high chance that the auction will end much higher, around market value). Pricing a doll for flat out private sale at the low-mid end of market value obviously makes one look like a scalper.

My sister and I are probably going to sell her Reisner (I'm keeping mine!) from the lottery when he gets here (she has since decided that her character HAS to have white skin so will be ordering FCS ), so I'll be sure to pass on these tips to her then.

 

that´s a good point
I agree, it´s almost impossible to detect scalpers amongst ...a zillion users, plus you don´tknow people personally, not enough to judge each case

plus...if it was ´nt allowed here ..the doll would probably go off to ebay and the result would be the same...only scalper having to pay fees

 

I think that it is kinda sad that you feel you must wait to sell your limited. I have bought numerous limiteds that I REALLY wanted, only to have Volks release a different limited that I want (or there may be one at an auction or in the Market Place). I then will have to decide what I want more and maybe have to sell a limited because I can't afford to keep both.

I am not going to wait to sell just so people will not think that I am a scalper. I always start my offers at exactly what I paid. But, I do let people make offers for a couple of days. Why? Because someone may not be there right as my thread goes up and may miss their chance. If I allow offers it allows more people to see it and have a chance at it. Also, being in the reverse position, I want to see it and be able to make an offer. If I feel the doll is worth more than retail, I will pay what I can and others feel that same.
This doesn't make me a scalper because I always buy a doll with the intention of keeping it. I can't always afford to keep dolls. Sometimes people will offer more than retail, sometimes less. You have no idea how much I have loss in the dollie market (this includes non-BJD).

What I am trying to say is, I may know within 2 days of getting a doll whether I really want it or 6 months. Each case is specific and unique. But I feel that it is silly to wait just because of what some person may or may not think. If I can't afford the doll or don't like it once I get it, I am going to sell and I am going to give people the option to make offers because that is what I would want.

So Dolly...I think you should sell if you already know you want something else more. Don't worry about what others think. Do what is right for you!!

 

Dolly, I don't think people will think you are a scalper. It's not like you sell dolls all the time, right? But certain individuals on this board are notorious for buying limiteds only to sell them five minutes later. Sorry, but I really get skeptical of this so-called "not bonding" experience when it keeps happening over and over again. It looks like scalping to me. Of course, it's impossible to really know for certain...but the circumstances certainly point to it.

 

I agree. You may get some flack, but you know you are not a scalper, and so do your friends.

Before buying a high priced doll, many will "check you out" first. They will look for feedback of course, but they will also look to see other threads you are in. If the only threads they find are lots of sell threads for limited items within days of a release, they may hesitate, thinking you are a scalper. If they find threads with your own pictures or comments or you go to meets, they'll feel more comfortable.

On Ebay, most people wont care one way or the other. If its something they want, and can afford they will get it. On DOA, where we have discussions and share our passion for these resin kids, emotions can run higher. This is both a good and bad thing.

 

I agree zalem and Selmada

People will know if a person is a scalper or not because there are people notorious for it.

Also checking threads is a good thing for those of us who want to avoid scalpers. If you see a For Sale thread and the person is taking offers, has a saving thing in their signature, is posting a lot in threads like the Dolpa threads, or has another Wanted To Buy thread up, they are probably not a scalper even if the doll is going for higher.

However, if the person only has For Sale Threads, no post about their personal dolls, no feedback from sellers, and is doing a Buy It Now only price, that should raise some red flags.

Of course the above mention things aren't true for every case, but they are things that I keep in mind when checking out sellers to see if they are scalpers or not (and I mean no offense to those that may fit in the later category). Same can be said for ebay feedback. Feedback from buyers only and no sellers and a history of selling dolls right at extremely high prices for Buy It Nows only can be a warning too. May not hold true with every case, but still helpful I feel in sorting out those I would like to give my business to and those I wouldn't.

 

I have a question! [We are talking about scalping in DoA here right?]

I'm not allowed in the marketplace and I don't really know how it works but are LEs really fetching such a high price on DoA? Are LEs really that desirable?

 

I wouldn't say it's a matter of LEs being desirable, but there wouldn't be a point trying to scalp a normal release right? People scalp limiteds because there is almost always a higher demand than supply.

Not all limiteds manage to sell easily though, and not always at a very high price either. It all depends on the popularity of that particular LE.