Scalping and YOU.

No one is questioning your choice. The person in the post above you seemed to be asking why, if everyone hated scalping so much, it stayed around. I was just pointing out that not everyone is bothered by it, or, even if bothered, some people would rather have the doll than make the choice to take a stand against it.

While there may be no organized anti-scalping movement per se, DoA as a community has taken steps to reduce/ prevent it, and there have been other forms of "community policing" (for instance, this thread, making it clear that many people oppose scalping to some degree) that may or may not be endorsed by DoA. There is obviously a large group of people who object to scalping. Sure, it's a personal choice, not a group choice, but it is a large number of people expressing a personal choice, which does amount to a sort of movement, even if not formally endorsed by any person, community, body, etc.

Basically, faced with widespread community and individual disapproval of scalping, almost no one is going to come right out and say "hey I think it's just fine" but assuming the scalper's prices don't go too high, there are many people who will just quietly go buy whatever it is. Maybe under the table if the scalpers are driven underground - a black market, if you will. That's why it persists. It probably will continue to persist.

 

It might be a case of impulsive buy for some people.
For others, it could be simply because their life has taken a wrong turn. If you unexpectedly lose your job for instance and you have no savings. When you need to get money fast it makes sense to sell anything you own that's collectable because it will sell quickly for a good price.

Then it depends on what they want for it. If they sell at auction and the starting price is what they paid for it then they're being honest. If they make any profit beyond that, good luck to them.

That's very different from people who buy with the intention to sell (unless they're taking orders for a fair commission price of course). Recently I noticed a seller on ebay who has already sold several LEs including 4 Tanpopos and 4 Cristals at grossly inflated prices.
Clearly this person had some agents buying for her too, and together they deprived genuine doll lovers from the chance of buying the dolls at a fair price.

As long as there is a demand for scalpers, they will be there. Anything that can be done to make their life harder is a positive step.

 

Note: The 'you' in this post is entirely ambiguous. I apologise in advance if I offend anyone, I normally phrase things in a less harsh way but I've got a fever and I was about to go to bed. It kind of makes me a little nervous to post this, because some people might not take too kindly to my thoughts and I don't want to make any enemies, but I just felt I had to comment.

I personally hold a rather neutral stance on the matter of scalpers and flippers. Though I do of course love my dolls, I feel that all too often, the base issue is clouded with emotions... and it suddenly becomes a moral issue. I prefer to look at the resale of luxury items from a purely practical/economic standpoint.

Firstly, the difference in this case from the rest of the scalping issue, is the fact that Black Ducan was sold in an auction. It's not like anyone had the opportunity to buy him at standard price anyway. The person at Dollism Plus 2 decided they'd bid to that price, so I don't see why they'd deserve it any less than anyone else there. If others there were willing to get into more of a bid war, they might've gotten it instead.

I honestly don't get what the big deal is because it's how the free market works. You want something badly enough, you spend the money. If you don't have the money but want it badly enough, either save up till you do or well it's just too bad. They're not essentials, you won't die without them. I mean I for one want a couple of limited dolls but I absolutely refuse to pay that much of a mark-up on them, market-set price or no. I just accept it the same way I accept I won't be driving around in a lamborghini anytime soon.

Again, I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I always seem to get a slight entitlement vibe whenever this topic is mentioned. "He's my dream doll so I should have him even though others want him too and are willing to pay more than I am".

I disagree with the whole 'taking the opportunity away from someone else' concept. Free market is free for all. Don't like the second-hand market price? Either stalk the site when it's being released, get friends to try for you, or just pray for lots of luck in an event lottery... and most importantly, don't whine about prices you'll have to pay to get it later, when a limited is released and you don't have enough money to buy it at the time. If others can save and have enough money to buy it at short notice (for whatever purposes, be it keeping or re-selling), I don't see why you're an exception. If you can't afford it and someone else can, then that's a pity but that's life. Can't always get what you want.

 

Here's the big deal.

Scalpers and flippers are trying to rip me off. That's why I don't like them. They hang in my community and try to be my pal, yet think nothing of ripping me off for as much $$ as they can.

Personally I'd rather give the creators the cash, not some greedy opportunist.

If you want to be ripped off, great. I sure don't, so I don't buy from them.

 

I'm with the sgt on this one. Personally, to make money I have a job. I don't begrudge people recouping thier investments, but we all know the difference.

 

What's wrong with resale as a job? I'm not referring to just dolls here, but things in general. Buying and reselling at a mark-up is pretty much what stores do. $5 dress in bangkok = $40 dress in a local store, exact same dress because they bought it from there.

I mean yeah, this is a hobby after all, but don't you think hobby stores and all also mark up their items, figurines which can go for $100+ drop to like $20 during a sale, and even then I doubt they're taking a loss.

Okay, I do think it's pretty awful when it's someone you actually know/are friends with. If it were a seller I didn't know though, I wouldn't expect them to let me buy it for cheaper when someone else offered higher. I mean, at the end of the day a lower price is money lost (profit is still money) for them. Either way someone loses money, it's just a matter of who's outsmarting who.

 

Blackpaperbag. Very well said.

Some limited dolls/outfits mark high prices in the second market.
I see many people buy dolls with saying or thinking "Although I don't know I will really bond with them, I buy this doll (because secondhand market price will be higher than the original price)". I see then people are expecting "If I really don't like them, I can resell them quickly/easily and will regain almost of all or more money I paid".

If all BJD always be 1/10 or more lower price, will you really "easily" buy such expensive dolls?

I don't think when people start the sales from the original prices = not scalping. (Many of scalpers know the start from the original price can get many watchings and biddings.)
I don't think when people sell dolls so quickly for the reason "I couldn't bond with..." ≠ flipping, either.
The secondhand market price will be high? or low?...we can't usually know it, can we? Then the buyers took the risk.

I think people may do what, how. All of people can't be saints. All of us don't have inexhaustible supply.
I don't think it's bad that people expect to get money as high as possible. I feel this feeling/wish can come to anyone naturally and easily.
I don't think flipping is bad, either. Personally I think "not bond with" can be caused at our homes, even after we had actually seen that doll at Dolpa etc.

Personally, I usually ask market price when I sell the doll. I don't have the obligation to which the second buyer is prepared and carried out. I have paid secondhand market price many times. I don't think even if "I" stop to buy secondhand dolls that have high prices, scalping/flipping can be zero. Some people don't think so and maybe some people are same. This is free.

I see many sales here DoA and most of them have higher prices = market prices or the prices which the sellers want to get. Market is Market and I don't think asking market price is bad at all. Rather, I personally feel when people are expecting other people should sell their dolls by original prices I think it's far greedier than the sellers.

And I always think their sales are their sales. If you don't like the price, you can ignore and pass it. If you have accused others' sales even once, then please sell your dolls by or under original prices forever! Used items usually mark lower prices. But I don't force you, because I know the markets.

*I have to say I do NOT LOVE scalping/flipping, don't love scalpers/flippers. Simply I have an opinion that I'd posted on P.12.

 

I am not fond of people who buy dolls for the sole intent to resell them as soon as possible. If you can't bond with it or have some sudden issues than by all means go and sell it and see what you can get for it. But if you buy limited molds just so you can resell it at 150% rate than I am not keen on that personally.

Nothing is more annoying than to try out for that one special doll that you like so much. Miss out on the oppurtunity and than see that some people did get their hands on it, not because they like the doll. No they just wait for people like you come along who missed out on the shot and have to watch the price go far beyond you expected to pay for him.

There is a reason that these things are not allowed on the market place... L:ike I said reselling, bonding etc that's just normal and expected in a hobby like this. But to be honest I am not too fond of the people who buy only to resell and get a heavy profit from the people who actually love that doll/mold.

 

Well... we all know how the free market works, but even if I had the sort of money to buy such expensive things I'd prefer a million times to buy from the person who manufactured the product, from the artist, from people who have actually done something useful in the production of the item... even if the price was considered too high. Where scalping is concerned the person selling is getting sometimes as much profit as people who produced the item without having done anything! They didn't have to pay for the material, for the workers, artists... so what is their excuse for asking so much more than the original price? What are we paying them for? Like you said, stores and such do increase prices, but they have to pay for the store itself, the employees and several other things that come with having a business, so even if the increase is massive it has at least a shred of justification.

Scalping just means to me: someone buys a doll and gets profit out of doing NOTHING, purposely exploiting other people, profiting from people's love for the hobby and from the hard work of the companies... no matter how you put it, and you ARE right in what you say, it still sounds like someone making easy money by exploiting the hobby and sometimes even people that they talk with in forums such as this one.

 

And as a final note, I agree with this.
I'm only talking about people who start their bids at a price considerably higher than the total cost of the doll (including the doll itself, shipping, custom fees...)

 

I had a wonderful response to this last night, and it somehow didn't get posted. I'll try again.

I am somewhat against scalping in the sense of "I bought three of these LE dolls so I can pay for my Hawaiian vacation (or whatever)." I can't honestly justify paying someone a 150% or more price increase for a doll I want just after an event ends. If I wasn't fortunate enough to get it the first time around, then I could do one of 3 things: 1. pay someone who didn't want the doll in the first place whatever they wanted ; 2. wait until I found the doll at a price I am willing to pay ; or 3. never get the doll period .

I'm more of the bide my time mentality. Eventually, unless the doll is the only one in existence, I'll find it at a price I want to pay. Let me give an example from this summer. I went to a doll convention in my area and saw a woman (Seller A) selling a doll I'd wanted for years for $300. The original retail on the doll was around $35. The doll was perfect, still in her original packaging and the face was beautiful, but she was $300. I cried inside, but I seriously didn't think she was worth that much yet. I kept it in mind, because I would have gone back and forked it over if I found nothing else on my wish list. Less than an hour later, I found another seller (Seller B) with the exact same doll in the exact same condition for $40. I happily ran with the $40 doll, and a few others from the nice (inexpensive) lady. I am pretty sure Seller A found someone to pay her price, just as Seller B did. Which of them was right? For me, the choice is obvious. For whoever could pay the $300, they probably thought that was a good deal too.

My problem with buying an LE from a second hand source is the fact that it is often a used doll. Why should I pay premium price for a played with doll, no matter how limited it is? Most people on the board aren't into this hobby like some other types of doll collectors are - I haven't seen an "NRFB" category for ABJD's. Since the dolls should be and are often played with, it makes no sense to me to be the 2nd (or 3rd) owner of a doll just because it was an LE, and to pay a heck of a lot for the priviledge. That's just me, and I know others don't feel that way. If someone falls out of love with a doll they've had for months or years, they have the right to sell it. But I won't be buying it from them at a 200% profit after all that time.

 

People paid up to $9000 for a Sony PS3 the night of launch, if people want it, and there's no other way to get it, scalping is inevitable, especially if there's good profit to be made. Supply and demand. ><

Unfortunately, the only ones that can prevent scalping are the companies that make the dolls themselves. Increasing supply would lower demand and lower scalpers' and flippers' prices to compete with the company so that they can make a profit.

Granted, there would be repercussions within the community with increased supplies of highly desired dolls, at least the scalping and flipping would go down.

As long as there is the chance for them to make a profit, they'll keep doing it, and there's no way to stop them. Because, someone will buy it. If demand is high enough and yours is the only one around to be bought, someone will buy it.

 

The problem I see with scalping is that you really have to be smart about it. You have to find a doll that is highly sought after. Who knows if the doll will be popular or not? I've been thinking about a Cristal boy lately. Going against my usual buy now, ask questions later approach I watched as the price kept going down...

You never know if suddenly the market will be full of your doll.

And worse, the ones that might be the most sought after, you might not even know until it's too late. Such as the Souldoll Zii fiasco!

As much as many people hate scalpers, I give them some credit. Because buying something for $700 and hoping it won't be a flop and you can sell for $900 is fairly risky. It's a lot of money they have to put down and hope for the best!

 

Maybe I'd be okay with slight profit, but I know that when I look in the market and see people wanting Bermanns very badly, it makes me a bit sad to think of all the work they have to go through just to find one, then all the money they'll have to pay to get it. I mean, if that's what they really want to do, then fine, nothing wrong with that! However, if someone's got a Bermann they're not exactly in love with, why dig your heels in and demand a price higher than what these people can pay? I'm not saying let the doll go for $1,000 just to cater to the buyer (that's also just asking to be taken advantage of), but why not work with them a bit? If no one can buy, you're not making ANY money at all, that doll you don't want isn't doing you a bit of good.

The one thing, though, that kind of pisses me off is buying an LE then splitting it and selling each part off for an insanely high price. I don't mean the people who split head/body/outfit, because I understand that sometimes you'll like part of a doll but not another. I'm talking the people who split head/wig/eyes/torso/hands/shirt/pants/shoes/coat/accessories in a clear effort to stealthily get WAY more than they paid.

However, I do want to say that in most business ventures, it's a given that you'll have to pay out some money in hopes of making a profit. Scalping is like that, in that you don't even really know if the doll is going to sell well or not. As long as people are willing to pay what scalpers ask, nothing truly "wrong" is going on, they're being compensated (very much so xD) for their risk. I'm sure the majority of people don't like it, but no one is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to buy for that price.

Personal preference, I guess. If you want to sell your doll for what you paid, then great, some buyer is going to be very lucky. If you want to sell for higher, and can actually get away with selling it for the price you're asking, then great, you're very lucky.

 

On E-Bay sometimes I see people selling Volks limited dollfies way above Y!J prices. It's crazy, I could go through an expensive shopping service, pay for shipping from Japan and still pay less than what these people want! Scalping takes advantage of buyer's ignorance or desperation to rip them off. I don't see how that's in any way moral or acceptable. Inflation happens, I get that. But it doesn't mean that I should be alright with it.

 

I thought due to the recent trend on the Site with the Soom monthly that this older thread could use a bump..

 

I agree with everything in your post, but this most of all. Two years after this post was made, and it's still going strong.

I think there is a frenzy mentality when it comes to limiteds. Soom with their hoofy, horned(y) MDs is by far the most noticable, but it's not limited just to them. Maybe I'm just a fan of the free market, but I don't think it's scalping if someone wants it enough to pay for it. I just don't. And there are a lot of little hoofy, horned(y) parts floating around the MP I'd like to bring home, but I'm not going to pay (Insert price that's overpriced in my opinion here) for them. If someone else wants to pay that, more power to them and I hope they enjoy their buy. But I would never ask someone to lower a price just because it's something I don't want to pay.

Again, I think there is a frenzy mentality when it comes to limiteds. People snatch them up without thinking because (a) it's Soom (b) It's a Soom Limited and (c) people watch the marketplace, they know these things will resale a profit if they decide they don't like the doll after all.

I don't know how much of the resale is done with true pre-meditation (buying the doll specifically to resell when it is no longer available). Do I think it's a sleazy practice? Sure. Do I support a person's right to do it even if I think it's sleazy? Absolutely. I just won't be buying from them, especially certain sellers I've noticed who have a habit of dealing in MDs.

But I think a lot of the reason so many of these dolls show up is because people buy into the limited frenzy and get them from Soom while they can so they don't have to pay that 2nd hand price, only to realize a few weeks or a few months later, "you know, I really don't want this thing after all. But someone else will and hey, if I can make a few (hundred) bucks more than what I paid, then I can afford that (insert thing here) I really wanted in the first place."

Example: I went in a Heliot head in a split for the reasons that (1) it was a Soom MD (2) OMG ITS A SOOM MD!!!! and (3) I got into this hobby late and missed all the other MDs and I don't want to miss this one because of the 2nd-hand prices I'd paid for some of my heads.

Then, shortly after the order period closed, I realized that I hated his blue eyeshadow, hated is girly lips, hated his confused expression and HATED his overly-long pointy ears. I had given into the impulse buy because it was available, but no longer wanted the darn thing. When he shipped and we were arranging details to get him to me, my split partner expressed her regret over not keeping the 2nd head. I promptly told that if she wanted to, she could have the darn thing for a small (re: less than the cost of a factory faceup) markup over what I had paid for it in the split. She got her Heliots. I didn't get a goofy-looking head I shouldn't have ordered in the first place. Everybody wins.

Apologies to all the Heliot-lovers out there.

I have to wonder how many people out there are in the same boat. They buy the MD because it is the MD and because it will be cheaper than doing so if they decide they *reallyreallyreally* want it after it's gone off sale, then realize they were never really that in love with it to begin with. I wonder, but does it matter? The answer is no.

Even if every single person who has ever sold an MD ever bought it with the sole intention of resale at markup, it still doesn't matter. Sellers don't establish a price for something in a collectible-based market. Buyers do. If a buyer wants to pay twice the retail for a blank Amber or Heliot (I'm using them since they're the most recently shipped MDs), then they are entitled to do so. If they do not, then the doll will remain unsold and the price will eventually fall on its own or, somewhere, there are going to be a bunch of MDs in boxes shoved in closets or under beds.

I mean the following in the most generic sense available and it is NOT in response to any one person, but to the growing amount of questioning/griping/whining about markup:

None of us will die or truly suffer if we do not get the doll/hoof/outfit/wig/cool shiney thing we want. We will be sad, but we will live. Like any other hobby in the history of the planet, rarer items are going to cost more. The rarer they are and the more people who want them, the more said item will cost. This is called Supply and Demand and is one of the most basic economic principles out there, whether it be milk, fuel or collectibles. Some people will think it's fair. Some won't. And the fair people will go about business as usual and the others will loudly and woefully lament the unfairness of it all.

Dead horse is dead. Yet still we beat it.

 

It's the same with Soom as it is with Volks. It will be the same with any other company that will be frequently releasing interesting limited dolls (Domuya perhaps?). Can't really see a reason to restart the discussion because of Soom (especially since *everyone* can buy their dolls and pay Soom's price, Soom even offer layaway)... but this is just my opinion

 

Yes, QFE. If you want a limited or rare doll/item, you'll have to pay for it, 'cause your not the only one wanting it. It's how our economy works and there's nothing unfair about it. You can still save up for it if you want it that badly. And if you can't or are unwilling to pay so much money, there are plenty of other dolls that are equally beautiful, so go for those.
Feeling sorry for yourself and crying about the unfairness of the market principles will not make you get the doll you want. Saving up and joining the hunt will.

 

Unfortunately, while there are certainly some business practices on the part of sellers that make me raise a brow in regard to these dolls, it is no more or less so than it is with any other special or limited edition dolls in the MP. The pre-order splits I've seen go up for them are, I think, a good thing, in that it helps people get the parts they really want even if they can't afford the entire doll at that time.

It's equally important, IMHO, for people making accusations of scalping to do their homework and know what the actual cost of an item is -- not just go with what they assume the actual price of an item is and start pointing fingers, or imagining an enormous markup where one might not actually exist. Sometimes pricetags on resold items are high because pricetags from the company are higher than one guesstimates, which is why it's doubly important to research those details and get all the facts first.