Scalping and YOU.

It's kind of difficult to call because in theory scalping seems greedy and could be a dark side to this hobby but at the same time - the LE doll you love, it's sold out but then you see one at the marked up price, what do you do then? If it was one I desperately want (and collecting dolls is the same as collecting Picasso so I'm not being shallow ;P) I actually think I'd go for it but secretly curse the seller with haemorrhoids or something

 

You bring up a good point--there are two sides to everything. The people who turn around and immediately sell an LE for profit do give the opportunity for people who missed the event/order period/etc the chance to get their dream doll. Actual scalping isn't pleasant, but it does still serve a sort of purpose in the natural dolly order of things. And of course, no one is forced to pay high prices if they don't want to pay.

The other thing that has been forgotten lately is that just because the resale value has climbed, doesn't mean that the dolls are actually being scalped. Some popular LEs can rocket up in value without scalpers having much if anything to do with it. There's a difference between sellers charging the going rate which happens to be higher than the original selling price and actual scalpers charging far above typical market value.

 

As per usual, I issue a standard disclaimer for the following post. No offense meant by the following statement. I simply don't often sugarcoat my opinions.

Now...


This is simple... if you don't have the money for the LE while it's available from the issuing company, then please don't whine about what you'll have to pay for the privilege of owning one later. End of story.

They're LE's. By very nature of what they are, they are supposed to appreciate in value, to some extent, almost immediately. The rarity and short term availability of the item says it all. If you miss the original sale window--whether that is a time limit, or a number of dolls sold, or locational availability or what have you--be prepared to pay what the inflated, post production markup will be, whatever that is.

Why? Because it's not really an LE until the after the sale window has closed and the final set numbers of that doll that there will EVER BE AVAILABLE is determined. Once you can't get that doll new from the company, once that window is closed and no more of them are released, then the price of that doll should rightfully soar.

I originally came from other doll collecting circles than Resin BJD's, and in other doll arenas this practice is so common it's sort of just understood. Once production of a limited doll has stopped and there is a finite number of them, that limited doll is worth whatever the market bears, no questions asked--because it IS limited. And that market value has little or no relationship to what the doll originally cost. It can be directly proportional to the actual head count of how many were made, or the reputation of the artist (or in this case company), the beauty of the doll itself, and the post production demand.

But regardless of the contributing factors to the post production markup, it's not personal, and it isn't scalping.


If you didn't want to pay the market value of the limited doll, you should have ordered it while it was being first offered by the company creating it. If you simply couldn't--if there was just NO way you could, then it's unfortunate--but your inability to acquire the doll before the original sale window closed is not a factor in what the doll is actually worth once the window for sale HAS closed.

I know that sounds harsh, but if you don't want to pay the sometimes breathtaking market value of LE dolls, then by all means, there are countless, very, very lovely, standard issue dolls that cost a lot less. Search for one of those you can love and afford, and quit being silly. It's rather undignified to whine about a normal facet of collecting as though it's a brutal injustice. Because it really isn't.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if the secondary market price that people ask is too high for you then simply don't pay it. There's no need for people to continuously kvetch about it on top of that. Recently, it seems there's been a slew of people whining because they made some offer to a seller that got rejected for being low, or got some offer from a WTB post that was just too high. OK, so it's too high, just don't do the deal, wait for another deal or another doll. Honestly, what is the big issue? Unless it's entitlement because of course people just expect a doll to be made available to them at the exact price they want to pay for it.

 

I have to say I agree with Elfkin. I don't take issue with scalping. I honestly find it to be simply a good investment and a reasonable way to make money, so long as they're not selling anything fake. If they took the effort to use their saved money and keep up with the releases, more power to them. Besides, it just means there will be more on the secondary market for buyers to choose from. If they're selling for a ridicules amount of money, people will probably just buy a cheaper one anyways.

I'll make an example of when Wiis first came out. I got up and stood in the rain on a cold November morning for hours to get one for $250. Another guy behind us somewhere was doing the same, hoping to sell the thing a few days before Christmas on EBay for a high mark up. He spent his time in the cold and his money for the game system, so I think he deserved whatever mark up he was able to get. The people who ended up buying it from him didn't want do the dirty work or couldn't, so they just have to pay for it. Supply and demand. Simple as that.

 

There seems to be a surge of this going on.

Here's the bottom line: do you want the doll, and are you willing to pay for it? Buy it. Want the doll, but unwilling to pay for it? Don't buy it.

This is the way life works.

I'm really having a hard time understanding why this keeps coming up.

 

I find that the complaints of scalping are rather laughable. I almost have to wonder if the people so absorbed in the 'doll world' have absolutely no touch with the 'real world'... They act like because dolls are soooo important to them, the 'laws' of the rest of the world shouldn't apply, or they hold such things to a different standard. Do they not realize every single item in the world is done exactly like this? Even the standard container of milk, is actually priced at 3 times what it 'should' be.

"Not pricing something at what I want to pay is immoral!" I'm seeing alot of that going on, and I have to double over in laughter, honestly. Why don't we all go tell the car-making companies that selling a car that only 7 were ever made of for 2 million dollars is immoral because you can't afford it.

Back to the milk example; A dairy company makes it (shall we say Volks in doll-terms?), sells it to Walmart (this is the scalper), prices each gallon at $4 - they paid $1.10 per gallon (the same as if someone were to take a doll at $800 and sell it for $2,400). Is Walmart and everyone involved immoral? Or is it that despite the mark up, that's something you can still afford to buy that you don't complain? Or is it because you expect that to happen for the hassle the company goes through to make it available to a wider amount of people (exactly like a scalper does, they go through alot of trouble to make this doll available to you later, even years later, that you don't even realize)? Or... Is it because you simpley don't know this is going on in your everyday lives that this is such a new thing to you? That almost everything you buy is at a marked up price of what it's "really worth"?

Please explain to me what makes scalpers - people looking to make a profit from something - immoral? The intention from the beginning that they wanted to make a profit off it? Just like Walmart's whole intention is to make a profit off of what they sell? Do you consider them immoral too? Because of intention? Price? What? I really want to know, as it is something I have never been able to understand.

 

With actual scalpers I think the idea is that by buying the LE to turn around and resell they are keeping someone who really wanted that doll from owning it. However, it's also true that there are often lots of people who don't get a shot at that doll anyway, and that scalper is giving them the opportunity to still have a chance at the doll. It doesn't seem to be a clear cut issue to me, and it's been getting blown out of proportion. After all, buyers are either willing to pay the money or they aren't, and no ones going to get taken advantage of price wise if they don't allow themselves to be. It takes two to tango--no seller is guaranteed that they will sell a doll for their original asking price if buyers decide that it's just too high. Buyers aren't really the victims here, as they actually have more power to determine the prices dolls go for. As dolls are luxury items, buyers can simply hold out for better prices forcing sellers to drop theirs.

I also really do believe (and this is what actually bothers me the most) that a lot of what people lately have been calling scalping really isn't at all--they just aren't happy with the way that value (and consequently the prices) of LEs often go up once they're sold out. Having been involved with another collectible hobby, I find it quite normal to expect discontinued standards and LEs to increase in price (unless they were unpopular)--it's just the way of things. I'm not sure why people believe it should be different for dolls. It's feels like some folks think that if prices aren't kept artificially low, then they're being cheated.

 

That really depends on the type of LE though. In some cases, like with Volks lottery limiteds it is in the best interest of the community that a scalper is to get one of the dolls, as that garantees there is a chance for people who do want the doll to get it. One person is beat out, but it gives hundreds a chance that they otherwise wouldn't have had. It seems like a very rare trade to me, which jumps back to the case of someone who didn't get picked for the lottery being sour that they didn't win and someone else did.

Though there are so many different types of limiteds, it makes me wonder what types people have in mind when they go around shouting "Immoral resellers!", you know? And like you said, alot of what people call scalpers isn't, it's just someone who is reselling something they bought, which happens to be for more then they paid for it. I'm trying to figure out what line it is people are trying to draw which seperates them, and people are drawing lines. I've seen it on 5 threads so far, and it makes no sense, all it comes down to so far is that they are just looking to be anger at some unknown person because they don't have what they want.

So while it may be the upset of that it might be beating out someone else, like you first listed, it might be other things they are upset about too, I'm trying to get everyone's point of view on it to see what it is about scalpers that bother them so much. Some say it's just intention, some say intention doesn't matter, but the act does, some are saying this, some are saying that.

 

This is pretty much it.

I have yet to see an argument about overpricing that doesn't involve some version of "because I/someone else want it and can't afford it." I would love to see one, believe me, and keep hoping to see one, but I have not.

 

Yes, this is why it's not so clear cut as "all scalpers bad!"

I personally consider people selling LEs at the going rate (even if it's higher than the original price) not scalpers. I always thought of scalpers as people who bought LEs for the exclusive reason of turning around and reselling them way above the typical market price.

I can understand wanting a doll and being frustrated about what it takes to get it, but I just don't see it as a moral/immoral or fair/unfair situation. Some of the more hysterical posts about secondary market prices and LEs in general make me think your last sentence is fairly spot on. There also seem to be some misconceptions about doll value floating around--I'm not sure if it's partly that some people aren't familiar with how collectibles work, so they really are surprised that second hand dolls A. do not automatically depreciate in value, and B. LEs can shoot up very quickly in value???

 

I don't think that either (I in fact, love scalpers and resellers), but I have seen at least 12 people say exactly that so far. I'm trying to figure out why they are saying that.

I agree with you 120% there! I don't get the morality people seem to keep trying to attach to a collectible hobby.

 

I don't either, but because BJDs are an emotional purchase for so many people, perhaps that influences many collectors to want to make everything about them into a giant moral issue of right and wrong.

 

What's weird though, it is done all the time, at every level of the 'real-world' economy: in real estate, in retail, and how about commodities and futures trading? Yet the people and companies who do that are not 'bad scalpers' but 'astute and successful investors' - and they are not brokering somebody's 'dream doll', but very often - ultimately jobs, homes, people's very livelihood.

I wonder how many 'scalpers' re-invest their profits in the doll hobby?

 

I think the people you mention aren't universally accepted in their practices either, even among business people. For example, I don't like the real estate speculator types because they run up the costs of homes for people to live in to a ridiculous rate, then someone gets stuck holding the mortgage bag when people can't pay.

However, I can see getting upset about "real estate scalping" way easier than I can see getting upset about doll scalpers, because whether you can buy a certain home influences the quality of life for your family, where your kids can attend school, and lots of other factors. Whereas whether or not one gets a limited doll is going to have very little effect on your quality of life, so that scalper is not having that much of an effect except where people let their emotions get involved. You can usually find a non-limited or cheaper doll that's nearly as nice as the "overpriced" one. You can't always find a decent cheaper house in the area you want to live.

 

What my mum always say about people who make noise about other people selling the limiteds at 'outrageous' prices:

If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Simple as that. A doll is a want. Not a need. There might be some other dolls that will pop out later and much better.

I've had entertained various complaints of such to me that 'xxx on doa prices her limiteds by so much~!'. To me, it is not necessary for that person to buy the doll from xxx. That person could wait till another LE popped out at a cheaper price. Or wait a few years. The prices are bound to fall by then.

What makes me laugh and sigh at the same time is that they want that LE doll now and not later. I mean...if you do have the cash, go right ahead to get the doll. No need to complain about the price. But most of the time, they do not have the cash, hence complains.

 

I don't like what scalpers do, inflate prices for purposes of greed and opportunism. But when there are none to be had, they do provide an opportunity for buyers who missed out for a second chance to buy. And provided a buyer has the extra cash to pay well above the normal retail price and is happy with this, it can't be an entirely bad thing.

 

^ This. Completely. Personally, I do find actual scalping somewhat distasteful, if not "immoral". But the issue most people are bringing up is actually an issue of increased market value, not scalping. Limited items increasing in value is a fact of life in any "collectible" hobby.

I know that buying something only to flip it for a huge profit is technically "just a good investment". I understand this from a logical point of view. But from a personal point of view, I can't help the fact that the whole idea admittedly makes me a bit uncomfortable. I guess I can put it like this... if someone else wants to buy a doll solely to immediately scalp it at a higher profit margin than standard market value, I accept that. It's a free-market economy, and if someone is willing to pay the over-inflated price then the scalper has every right to charge it. But as for me, I just can't bring myself to buy a doll only for resale profit.

That being said, if I do decide to sell one of my dolls, I will price it at the current market value. This goes both ways... for standards that have depreciated in value and for limiteds that have increased. That's a free market. I have sold items in an auction setting before, letting the market decide the value.

I do think the example with milk sold at Wal-mart is a bit flawed in that it's an issue of a standard item being bought at wholesale and sold at retail. No one is complaining to licensed dealers/resellers of doll companies (retailers like Junkyspot, Denver Doll, HappyHouse, etc)... as licensed dealers I believe they often pay lower wholesale prices for the dolls and sell them at a retail value set by the doll company. Wholesale/Retail is a completely different scenario than a limited collectible resale.

 

In my opinion, buying a LE doll specifically to resell the whole thing, is scalping, regardless of how much more they charge.
The only reason it's done it to profit off of the limited availability. If they didn't buy it at all, that would be one extra person who could get the doll they loved without having to sell their organs to acquire it.

I don't believe anything can be done about it though, short of everyone pretty much agreeing to a price scale, and never paying more for it than that. Of course, it would be impossible to get absolutely everyone even hear of such a thing, let alone agree to it.
(By price scale, I mean a scale where the price goes up over time. Someone buying second hand within the first year wouldn't be likely to pay much more than what the company charged for it, but the price goes up after each year, so as not to hurt those who bought their dolls as an investment. But it would limit scalpers, because most of them are in it for the quick buck they can make)
But like I said, there's no way to have that happen, really. Even if everyone on DoA agreed to it, scalpers could still sell LEs on many other websites including eBay.

 

Not only would that be not enforceable (as you already pointed out), but it would be unfair to the people who bought the dolls without the intention to scalp them as it keeps the secondary market prices artificially low. Some who are not scalpers still may choose to sell a doll after not having it for very long and with that system they would be unable to get a reasonable secondary market price. Dolls shoot up at different rates and amounts, but popular LEs can increase in price by quite a bit shortly after they're sold out. This isn't something that can or should be controlled in that way. Secondary market prices really come down to what people are willing to pay--it's already in the hands of the buyers anyhow.