Scalping and YOU.

I sincerely hope this talk about moral crusades has not been partially inspired by my reply to mamehisa's "Morals don't come into it, this is sound financial selling practise - profit rules." When I spoke up against that, I was talking about the general idea that morals aren't involved in anything concerning business. But it wasn't specifically aimed at the scalping that exists in this hobby.

I haven't really seen a moral crusade against scalpers, a demand to burn them on a stake because they're evil. It's more of a general dislike at the act of scalping.

I see a lot of comparisons of BJD scalping to other types of hobbies, but I'm not sure if they are entirely very good comparisons. For one thing, BJDs' mark-up profit can be pretty insane and it's so easy to scalp BJDs as long as you have a credit card and internet (or if you live in Japan). I'm not sure if I know of any other hobby that can scalp for over thousands of dollars for a singular object. The other aspect is that this is a big community, but one that involves putting up pictures regularly and sharing discussions. We might not know each other well, but we do know each other. When you have a scalper in your midst that makes friendly with you while they practise their scalping tactics...it just doesn't settle well with people. That's why I think scalping is more frowned upon in this hobby.

 

The fact that this thread exists and that so many people are calling for a stop to scalping and how it's immoral, along with attacks that have been made in the past in sales threads concerning the price of items for sale...it's more than general dislike.

A friend said this earlier to me tonight and I think it rings true. BJDs are just another hobby like any of a number of other hobbies out there, and people don't want to look at it that way. They feel this particular hobby is better and more special than the other ones and our community is solid and strong and everyone loves everyone else because of the shared love of dolls. Scalpers remind us all that in the end, these dolls are commodities that are sold and traded. People don't like being reminded that this hobby is a very lucrative business because that makes it dirty and less special and meaningful. They're no longer people's "resin children" but things bought and sold. Maybe the scalper doesn't care about holding hands and singing songs. They want to earn some money on the side to buy the things they want for their own dolls or other interests or whatever. Or even more shocking, they could be nice people who do get along with other doll owners and still would like to earn some money. I don't have to buy from someone to be their friend, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge one of my friends a chance to turn a profit.

 

I agree with this. There's a definete idea that because some people percieve them as their children, that we should only sell them at market value.

In the end, when I own a doll, I own a piece of resin. That resin does not have a soul. It is masterfully crafted, yes, painted with a great deal of care and treated with a great deal of care, but it is not alive. Of course I assign it a character who means a lot to me, but the doll itself is not the character.

Scalping means we have to admit that a little bit more; it also means that our friends in this hobby are not as attached to the bonds.

Again - I do not agree with scalping dolls you buy online from the source, but I don't think there's a moral issue here because it's not against the law to buy and sell things at a price that you find fair if you own an object.

 

Kim you took the words out of my mouth. I've been dealing with alot of people who are immature lately, and can't separate fantasy from reality, and need from want, good from evil..

If that's the case, selling for the SAME amount you paid for is a bad thing too, because it's been used. It's no longer new, so the value should depreciate.

It's just another hobby. Nothing special about ours because we have forums. I love dolls as much as the next person, but if a Berhmann falls into my lap, I'm not keeping him. I don't like the mold. It would be stupid to not get what people are willing to pay.

The goverment doesn't buy dolls, therefore they are technically only worth what someone will pay for them. So if for some reason someone offers me 20,000.00 for a standard release El, and I sell him, I've done nothing wrong, because he was WORTH that much at THAT time.

Flame away, I'm not here for a reputation. ^_^

 

I would be glad if I could state an opinion one day without being psychoanalyzed to pieces.

Firstly, how many people here have said it's immoral? It's starting to sound like everyone has been talking about morals but in these three pages, I haven't seen but one mention. The majority have not used that word, but one person mentions it in context of scalping and it's like the be all, end all of this thread for some.

Secondly, no, dislike of scalping has little to do with having personal attachments to BJDs itself and I think that is a poor psychological take on it. Also, too much of a sweeping generalization for me to swallow happily. This entire hobby involves a lot of buying and selling, so let me reassure you that a lot of us are well aware that dolls are commodities to be bought and sold.

I like my BJD just fine, but it's an object in the end. Why I dislike scalping has little to do with personal attachment and more to do with the feeling of someone making a heck lot of money for little work. It's the feeling that here are these people making loads of money from a company's effort by putting in as little effort as possible. There's also the fact that plenty of people lose out on a chance to buy something they want because the scalpers bought it up. Basically, it's a feeling of injustice.

And before people go wise and skeptical on me by saying the world is unfair and all, let me assure you that I know it is. I'm very well aware of the injustice that the world is. However, it doesn't mean I will sit on my hands and say 'oh well, the world is mean and bad and I'll just go along with it'. That's why I speak out. I accept the reality that scalping is a part of expensive hobbies. But it doesn't mean I have to start thinking that it's fine and dandy or embrace scalpers with open arms.

The fact that this thread exists is because of general dislike. Why is it more than general dislike? I haven't seen any screaming that scalpers are evil and should be punished appropriately. So far, the discussion has been pretty tame and gives off a vibe of...well...general dislike. I'm not going to touch on the attacks on the sales threads since I don't moderate sales threads and haven't gathered and analyzed such instances.

 

LKJ I did not bring up morality in reference to you. I brought up morality in reference to a post Celebare made. In a post I made earlier, I even quote it, where Celebare mentions that the only moral way to sell an LE is through an auction.

 

Sorry, perhaps I should have used more quotes. But my latest post isn't about who brought up morality anyway and was more in response to:

It sounds like Kim is saying that it's more than general dislike because people have called it immoral...when so far, it's one person who said 'an auction is the right and moral way.' In all fairness, Celebare didn't say that scalping is immoral either. Earlier, Kim also mentioned moral crusades, and overall, it was giving off the feel like a lot of people have been calling scalping immoral. When no one has (or at least, one person has implied it).

 

Whatever the buyer is willing to pay is fair. I won't buy any doll at a ridiculously high price, but then maybe the next person will. Scalping has a neg. connotation meaning someone is taken advantage of with a higher than fair price. But buyers should beware and be kowlegeable. Value is determined by the market and what someone will pay willingly.

 

I think the nature of anything that is limited is for it to go up in value to those who want it, but can't buy it at it's original price. Once that happens, the laws of supply and demand....take over and prices for limited things skyrocket. Remember Beanie Babies? Some of them were selling for more than a BJD. I guess that people can buy or sell their own items for whatever the market will pay for them. Everyone has to decide as an individual whether they will pay an exhorbitant amount for something they want...or look for something else they will like as much, at a lesser price, or sell something limited they own for an exhorbitant price, or sell it for what they paid. Where it becomes really difficult is in situations where you really need the money for something else...i.e. dental bills, plumbing or car repairs. You can sell this limited item you own for $ 4000 knowing someone will snatch it up and end your $$ woes, or you can add yet another bill to your credit card and pay the 12% interest on it. It's always hard to know what situations drive the buying and selling of any limited item. I think it's not always just greed but sometimes necessity. For me, I don't buy or sell limited items of any kind....keeps it simple.

 

I have seen people on music-fan lists have a fit over scalping of tickets to shows. There's often a sense of entitlement at play there, i.e. "I have been a big fan of X band for the last 30 years and now I can't get a ticket for them at face value because the scalpers bought them all, it's not fair!" I think there's a similar sense of entitlement that people feel about scalping dolls, as in "I really, really wanted such-and-such new release, I've been a huge fan of such-and-such company's dolls for years, and I didn't get one, and that's not fair!"

My problem with this viewpoint is that I don't really think anyone is "entitled" to get any of these items just by virtue of being a fan. If you actually do work for the entity involved then maybe you should get a ticket or a doll for cheap or free (which half the time, people turn around and sell...). If it's just a case of you liking them a lot, then that doesn't make you any better than other people who also like them a lot or even people who are just getting into them. But this viewpoint is going to come up whenever some object skyrockets in price based on demand and a large contingent of the fans don't have money to keep up with that price. There's no point in analyzing it, it's a market reality. People who don't have the money don't like the practice. People who do have the money will usually gripe a little and then pay up for whatever it is they want.

 

I think that this is really funny for a reason that's really obvious to Japanese fans.

If you're a member of an official fanclub in Japan, like a music band or Takarazuka theater, you DO get first dibs at the tickets. For example, Takarazuka tickets are often IMPOSSIBLE to get because the members of the fanclub buy them out in the presales that are only open to the fanclub. Same thing with a lot of bands, especially big ones.

It's a little off-topic. Obviously Volks does not have this for their VIP members; VIP members don't have a separate, private After Event.

 

Actually, if you live in Japan, one can pick up a doujinshi for as little as 210 yen and resell the right ones easily for $10 to a very happy and satisfied buyer. While $8 profit doesn't seem a lot, it is an 800% mark-up, which is something I've not yet seen in ABJDs.

The majority of BJDs do not sell for thousands of dollars more than their original price. There are of course exceptions, and it is the exceptions that stick out, but they are the exceptions.

LKJ, I believe many of Kim's comments were not directed at you specifically but the general public of DoA and the many other people commenting in this thread. While I've not seen the word "moral" used so often, I have seen 3 different people use the word "wrong" in regards to scalping and one other person declare that prices $250 above retail are a rip-off, which to me at least gives the impression of a very negative feel towards scalpers. I also do not think her comments about the belief in "resin children" were directed at you specifically, but the other people as part of the debate. I personally have seen sellers attacked in their sales thread for not trying to bond hard enough with their dolls. The person I remember best as I alerted the mods to the attack was just asking retail price for said doll, it was not even a question of scalping.

This is not directed at LKJ at all, but to the earlier mention of re-selling a LE bought and then decided that one does not like, by I believe Dolly. I'm not saying one ought not to get market value for said LE, but it seems like sometimes a market value is decided on the LE before it has even hit the marketplace. I've noticed this with the last few Yo-SD releases. Because some of the past ones sold for $500+, whenever someone sells a Yo-SD, they always start by asking $500+, and is this really the market value, or somewhat arbitrary? If the only Sweet Dreams Anne before this was sold by VolksUSA, what makes the market value above retail now that they're no longer availble?

This is not directed solely at LKJ, but just a general question to throw out, when does a service you're commissioning cross over into scalping? Does that never happen? I'm curious. ^^;

 

Actually, Volks sort of does. VS/VIP members are the only people invited to Tenshi no Sato special events which so far have been the only place the highly desirable Yo-Tenshi have been released.

And to Bunnydots as stated later, scalping band tickets is easily accessible to those not a part of the community. It's completely mainstream. I might not be a fan of say Bon Jovi or Cream or Justin Timberlake, but I know who they all are easily enough that I could try to get tickets to scalp (and BTW the concert venues are doing their best to actually fight this, while I would argue the doll companies both are and are not)

I'm not much of a music fan, but I want to know if people are also scalping tickets to smaller and less "big" things like say a Magnetic Field's concert or They Might Be Giants or the Indigo Girls?

I just think any hobby that is not mainstream, those who are the scalpers are also members of said community because that is the only way they have the requisite knowledge to scalp.

 

It may not necessarily be morally better, but it does certainly make one look less obnoxious. If it's a rare LE, then it WILL go up in price, and no one will think you're a scalper -- it's just people who want it bidding it up. But if you ask for thousands of dollars right off the bat, it just looks greedy. Honestly, people could get away with a lot more if they started their sales off low.

There are certainly a few people who are so obviously scalpers it baffles me that people don't see it. But they can get away with it because their seen as friendly or assets to the community or they have friends who will stick up for them. Because of the rules, they can't be called out on it, and even if they were, there are people who would still buy from them anyway.

I agree with what's been said, that scalping takes dolls away from people who genuinely want them. Instead of getting the doll at retail, their only other choice is to pay some hiked up price.

 

I agree with you JKL.

Personally, if the rules allowed I would like to see some price policing. It's one thing to sell the doll at retail price and have it go up in auction but another to start higher than retail and what you paid just because you can. There are well known people that markup LE dolls on this board and people still buy from them which allows scalping. I personally wouldn't buy a doll that I had no intent on keeping just to mark it up for resale. Since I would rather let someone that wanted that doll have a chance at it.

What gets me are the blatant markups. I wish those that are known for flipping and scalping could be called out on it just to see what they have to say in their defence. If you get something at retail and then sell it at markup, to me it boarders on cheating the orginal maker. What I mean is they spent their time, more so than the scalper, into the iteam and sold it at said price why should you make more profit then them? Also, the scalping because I can agruement tickles me because there are lots of things you can do but shouldn't.

Honestly, as long as people buy it's going to continue, period. Whatever happened to good old fashion haggling to get the price you want.

 

Well, not to stray too far off the doll topic, but in the US, sometimes fans of certain performers *do* get special treatment as well but it tends to be a very small and select handful of people known to the performer or the management - longtime friends and that sort of thing. It's not the sort of status you'd achieve simply by buying the product on a regular basis or joining the fan mailing list. There are things such as fanclub-only, or members-only, presales in the US too but they're often a big joke because people can and do easily give the magic codeword out to people not in the group, plus the group is likely to include a few scalpers. As a general matter, fandom in the US for anything also tends to be very different from fandom in Japan, so my analogy is primarily from a Western perspective.

 

I couldn't agree more. One of the things I dislike most about this community (if it qualifies as such) is the number of people who feel entitled to make judgments about what other people choose to do with their own property and money, or even suggest that such things be "policed". If I felt something wasn't worth the cost and my friend was going to buy it I might tell them they were overspending, but if they said "hey, I still want that and I don't mind paying double or whatever" then I'd say "fine, go to it, enjoy". Bottom line, when it's not your doll or your money, you should just keep to yourself about it.

 

If I buy a BJD that is limited at retail.....and then watch the price and demand go thru the roof for it say like 1,000-4,500.00 USD, when and if I decide to sell it, I just can't sell it at the demanding price. That's just me...if I paid $1050.00 at retail then I am selling it at that price no matter how long I keep it. I would want my doll to go to a good home and be well loved by someone else...heck I have been known to go under the price too.....I always keep one motto....I'm here today and could die tomorrow...I can't take it with me.....

 

I've never really understood the idea that selling your own doll for more than it originally cost you is an issue for public scrutiny...

I used to buy and sell very rare [non-BJD] dolls and my policy was very simple : I bought the doll from its owner for a price that was fair both to them and to me [so I could sleep at night]. If the seller didn't know the value of their doll I WOULD TELL THEM ! If I'd offered a price without seeing the doll and then saw it and realised it was a better example I WOULD UP MY OFFER. I wasn't interested in cheating them just to save money - I needed to keep my contacts so that I could buy from and sell to them in the future and I wanted a good reputation amongst dealers and collectors [which is just about an impossible goal, as almost everyone criticised everyone else].

When I sold the doll I would, quite honestly, get as much for it as the market [and the amount or lack of prospective buyers] would allow. I sold at doll fairs or at meet-ups. At fairs I had overheads to cover, at meet-ups I didn't. This would all affect my selling price, as would the state of the [always volatile] collectors' market.

Some of the dolls I bought to keep for my own collection, some I bought specifically to sell as a dealer.

I don't understand why BJD's should be regarded any differently to other dolls. As a buyer, I'll pay what I have to if I really want something. As a seller, I've tended to lose money on BJD's and their accessories as very few seem to hold their value. I'm one of the many romantic fools who would like a Bermann some day. I doubt very much I'll get one from Tensiya. Its more likely to be on the secondary market. If a secondary market seller offered me the doll at cost I would be grateful, but I'd also think they were NUTS!!!

I certainly take the point about 'cheating' the companies, though. I'd gladly pay the market value for a Bermann straight to Tensiya so that the company who made the doll I love so much got every penny. I've no idea why they sell the dolls so cheaply. I'm able to pay them more and would happily do so - the artists have a right to the financial rewards from the high standard of their work.

jaxa

 

I've never been bothered by the people who start an auction at-cost and let the market decide the price or people who sell something they've had for a good while at the current going rate. I think the big issue is when the scalpers are the ones who are DETERMINING the market value. If a number of LE dolls come up for sale the day at a huge markup and any sell, that suddenly becomes the going rate. And that's not so much the market deciding the price as it is scalpers trying to milk an item for all its worth and getting lucky. There are always going to be people for whom money isn't an issue and who will pay any amount of money to get the doll they want when they want it. But the price they pay shouldn't (and luckily doesn't always) necessarily dictate what is acceptable to the collecting community at large for the long run.