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Scalping and YOU.

May 18, 2007

    1. Really there are different things to consider when dealing with this issue.

      How much did they pay for the doll?

      Are they trying to make a certain amount of profit?

      What's the quality of the doll?

      How much higher in cost is this from similar dolls?

      What's their financial situation?

      I know that a lot of people sell things at a higher price because they have the belief that things get more expensive the older they are... But this isn't always true. And that depends on quality as well as demand.
      Also, As long as there are people out there that are willing to pay bu co bucks to obtain something... There will be people that think that they have the ability to sell something at a hugely inflated price.

      Sadly, it's just like gas. Supply and Demand... the person needs or wants this thing very badly so they know they can mark it up and it will be bought... They'll complain... but they still need it.....
       
    2. While it is supply and demand, I really have to argue that anyone NEEDS a doll. Dolls are luxury items; no one needs to spend hundreds of dollars on doll. We do it because we like them, which is, to an extent, why scalping can exist.

      On things that are not luxury items (food, etc.) they tend to be a little more regular, so who's gonna scalp them? Obviously the price of gas is going up, but I wouldn't compare it to scalping as we're getting gas from the source and not from a third, unaffiliated party.
       
    3. Hmm. One frustrating thing that I keep seeing is the idea that scalpers keep people who want a doll from getting that doll. It is both true and false... in many cases, scalping is what allows people to get a doll.

      Say that there were no scalpers buying a certain LE doll. All of the dolls go to someone who wants one- say it's a limited edition of 100 and there are 200 people who like the doll. 100 of those people are fast andget the doll, 100 are a little too slow and do not. Since they're not scalpers, none of the dolls pop up on the secondary market. The other 100 people have no chance to get the doll, at all. Offering an owner lots of money to sell you the doll is incredibly rude, and so there's nothing you can do, even if you're willing to spend twice as much as the doll sold for. If there are scalpers, less people who want the doll will get it in the event, but more people have a chance to get one later.

      Should people who can't attend events in Japan be totally cut out of the doll market? How about people with slow internet connections who can't grab an item first at an after event sale? Does having a faster connection and putting an item in your cart 1 minute faster than someone else mean you're more worthy of the item (doll, outfit, whatever) than they are?

      I can imagine a lot of people would be upset if there were no scalpers selling event-only dolls and items, school heads, etc. Because without scalpers, or enough money and time to take a trip to Japan or Korea, a lot of people would be utterly shut out of being able to get certain dolls, outfits, accesories, furniture, etc etc etc.

      So yes, scalpers do buy up dolls instead of fans, and less fans get the doll on release, but they also do make dolls more available to people who, for whatever reason, could not get the doll on release. And I know a lot of people take advantage of this.
       
    4. Not really. I think dolls are just pretty pieces of resin. Nothing more. Nothing less. I hate scalpers because it's just really annoying that they take away my chance at getting the doll at retail price. Especially, if it's a limited doll. Sorry, I don't want to pay $2000 for an $800 doll. It's unfair that they are taking away the opportunity for people who actually want the dolls but can only afford them at retail price just so they can make some quick cash. It's just a real turn-off. I'd feel the same if it were something else being sold like a concert ticket. Of course, I do my part by simply refusing to buy anything from scalpers. Unfortunately, there are people who will buy from scalpers which is why they continue to thrive.

      But it's kind of tough. I have many friends who have bought dolls off of Y!J for inflated prices. But these are sometimes dolls that are extremely difficult to get because they are special event dolls (like Scarface Cecile). So scalpers really are the only way to get things at times. I certainly won't look down on any of my friends for making that choice.
       
    5. I think scalping is unfair, they are buying the doll for profit and not love.
       
    6. One thing at a time. I think the comparison of a doujinshi to a doll is a bit dodgy, what with the doujinshi after mark up being $10 and and the standard doll being several hundred times more than that. I have to ask...do you honestly believe a USD8 profit is equivalent to a USD800 profit?

      I think you'll find Volks dolls going for pretty sky high prices. If not thousands, then near a thousand a lot of the time. And I don't think I need to mention Bermann for people to think of thousands. I'm not quite sure why this is a point of contention though.

      I am aware that Kim's comment was directed at the general public. However, to be fair, it is actually directed at every single person out there who dislike scalping, who believe that scalping isn't a great behaviour. Her theory that people don't like scalping because they don't want to see their dolls as objects is pretty much a sweeping generalization that includes everyone who dislike scalping, of which I am one of them.

      While her comment wasn't directed at me, her tone was that a majority of the people here are calling it immoral, when it isn't, which is why I spoke up. People saying they think it's wrong isn't the same as people calling scalpers immoral. I do believe there is a dislike for scalpers, even a strong dislike, which is...yes, 'a very negative feel towards scalpers.' But no one has called for persecution. The question I have to ask is...why are people upset that there are members who dislike scalpers? Why is the negative feeling towards them wrong?

      And this last bit is for BunnyDots:

      The belief that people hate scalpers because they don't have the money to pay the price is...disturbing. It's the assumption that the dislike for scalpers is purely a sour grapes matter. Basically, if you can afford it, you don't care what other people do, but only if you can't afford it, then do you get upset. I would seriously like to believe that not everyone is as self-centered as that. I might not be rich, but I can afford some of those crazy prices. I've heard people who speak up against scalpers even as they own their own share of limited dolls. So yes, I do think that saying it's 'sour grapes' is simplistic at best, insulting at worst.
       
    7. Myself i have a large large hate for scalpers, and its not sour grapes its just a pet hate of mine. I put up with it in my pullip days and its the same in the bjd hobby. It exists i know that but i will never agree with it.
       
    8. :) Lady Brick, I really like the point you made, about resellers of dolls ideally starting their auctions at the cost price and then letting market forces/ the desires of the collectors bidding decide the final price. That's a good way to resell a doll.

      I can understand someone feeling frustrated [insert other negative emotion here] when a doll is offered only at an extremely high 'buy it now', giving potential buyers no control over the final price. In that situation, the only choice is to buy it or walk away. A doll offered in that kind of auction is kept out of circulation amongst collectors who would love to own it and would happily buy it if it was offered more reasonably.

      A great difficulty with Ebay is that sales end when the clock runs out, not when the bidders drop out. If I'm at a conventional auction and I see twenty hands go in the air to start the bidding on a doll I like, at least I KNOW I've got trouble coming ! With Ebay, I can be sniped at the last moment even when I could have bid a little more. Bidders attempting to place snipe-proof bids will tend to bid high, pushing up prices. Market forces, again [sigh].

      :aheartbea jaxa:aninja:
       
    9. I don't think of my dolls as resin kids or real people, but I admit that I have an emotional attachment to my dolls; I wouldn't spend this much money on them if I didn't. People buy dolls for all sorts of reasons, and while I understand why someone would buy a limited doll to flip and turn a profit, I feel sorry for the people who lose out on getting the doll at it's original price because of this. I don't think there is any solution for this situation; it is impossible to regulate anyone's motive at the time of purchase and there will always be someone who wants a doll badly enough to pay any price.
       
    10. The first thing I would do is NEVER sell to that person again. But that goes w/o saying doesn't it? Well since I can be a bit of a uber-princess pup @ times, the next thing would be to make sure I have every piece of documentation of the transaction in a safe place. And then if anyone asks about the transaction I would tell them that the new "owner" flipped the doll to make a profit.

      Guess it's a good thing I'm not planing on selling my dolls since I just killed any goodwill from buyers here.

      Morgan
       
    11. I personally think most instances of scalping are extremely tacky, as stated earlier. It also really bothers me a lot that people who post various dolls on eBay are called out on being scalpers and not other people who are scalping just as much because they are considered an asset to the DoA community. It seems very double standard to me, when that person on eBay or Y!J who is scalping is probably also a fellow collector (the excuse I have been given for why it is OK for the various scalpers in our midst). I truly believe all those who think scalping is so wrong should put their money where their mouth is and not buy dolls they feel are being scalped. If people really did that more, I think we would see prices drop. There is also the expectation among people on this board (and I've seen this a lot in threads where someone is trying to convince parents to allow them to buy a doll) that all dolls need to appreciate in value and that dolls are a good investment, as at the very least they won't depreciate. This belief aids in encouraging scalpers.

      And yes, I do think the comparison of doujinshi to dolls is apt, at least as apt as your earlier comparison of dolls to houses. (Which BTW at least where I live have been flipped within a week to 6 months which is a tad more unsettling than doll flipping to me.) To me the $8 profit is equivalent because in nearly all cases collectibles of any sort are a volatile market. In the case of a doujinshi, the seller is risking $2 of their money, in the case of a doll the seller is risking $800+ of their money. I mean realistically, assuming you were a scalper, would you risk $800+ on only a $8 profit? You risk more, you gain more, because in most cases you are (as a scalper) risking your money, since there are no guarantees in most cases there is going to be a profit.

      This is an example only, I did NOT buy this doll in question. The only Dolpa 17 dolls I paid for were Shin and Lin who I am NOT selling and I got a voucher for Archangel Raphael for Reisner. I could have bought a SwDKaede at Dolpa 17 for approx $490 if I was a scalper. But then I would need to be sure I could actually sell her for at least that amount if I was paying for her, and considering I would then need to carry her around Japan and try to either schlep her home in my bags or mail her from Japan, I would want more than $490. But as the potential scalper in the above scenario, I would be laying out $490 of my money. What if she didn't sell? What if the profit was only $8? I'm not asking anyone on this board to feel bad for scalpers, I am just saying that there is an inerrant risk to scalping and as such, I am sure scalpers feel they are entitled to monetary rewards, not just for their time put into said endeavour.

      The majority of Volks LEs sell for $1000 or over because they cost originally a $1000 or over and at the moment, there has still not been a huge depreciation in older/used dolls. (I personally expect there will be as more dolls come out, since there are a limited # of collectors with a limited amount of money) Emma, Tony, White Cat and Black Cat Chris and Lucas, Heath, SwD Mimi, SwD Syo to name a few are all LEs that seem to sell pretty close to their original price, which for the most part is about 1k. MSD Lilith and Phyllis do not cost more and might even sell for less than original price now, Midori and Nagisa both just got re-releases to try and help lower prices and while I am not in the market for either, I suspect it has, and LE MSD Ken and Mika are hard to sell for much more than the cost of a new MSD kit. SDC Miko doesn't seem to sell for more than original price either. Sellers are asking more, but SwD Anne and Piccolo are not selling for the $450+ people want, and I suspect would actually sell for closer to the $375 they cost originally. Yukinojo sells for close to $1500, but I seem to remember his price was pretty darn close to that from VolksUSA. People can ask some ridiculous amount, and if a buyer is completely desperate they can take them up on it, but if you're patient, all those dolls seem to come up eventually for something reasonable. There are exceptions, Tsukasa, Jun, Momoko, Sasha, and Bermann by Tenisya. But I think they are exceptions. BF's Walking with Olive and May don't seem to sell for anything more than retail at best, the MinoruWorld exclusive LE PFs only seem to go for original price as well. The color elves from BC fluctuate somewhat in price but aren't going for too much above original price either unless they have a really special face-up. I've seen some of the DoD and AR LE's also sell for pretty close to original price.
       
    12. Scalping is just another way of investing. Would I do it? No, but only because I don't have thousands of dollars to go slinging around in the hopes that my hunch is correct. For every LE that sells for twice its price, there is a LE that won't move, and sits around for years. Scalpers that invested in Magical Michael, I would think, are somewhat disappointed as I rarely see him actually sell for his retail price even.

      There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, and its due to these investors that people are able to get dolls that might otherwise be stuck at the bottom of some other collector's closet. We are blessed that our dolls /are/ limited, each and every one of them, to a certain degree, and hard to come by, with sometimes signifigant wait times, because that is what allows us to buy a doll for retail, and resell it for the same price, if not a little more. If you bought a Cindy, and thought that you would only be able to sell her for exactly what you paid, you might not sell her at all. But the market demands a higher price, and so people are more likely to buy and resell.

      Someone mentioned being patient, and if you don't like a scalper's price, just be patient. After the newness and 'eliteness' wears down for owning that particular doll, you will be able to find what you are looking for at a 'near retail' price. Isao and Shirou, who once commanded ridiculously high prices, can now be found, for the patient, within a few hundred dollars of their original retail price.
       
    13. I agree with you, buff
       
    14. Scalping has always existed as long as capitalism has. If you look at other markets like video game consoles, the response is literally similar. When Nintendo released a small number of Wii's, you would find people buying and selling it on Ebay about double or triple the price. This has happened with popular toys, concerts and the like. The key word is popular. We make things popular by emphasizing certain aspects of a product. In the case of BJDs, it's often based on how it looks, how it makes us feel at the moment and so on. Unfortunately, by making it popular, people will by it and cause it to perhaps sell out. There's scarity of a product and some people believe that they need to get it regardless of the cost. Some of us forget that this is just to satisfy a want and not a need. Depending on our level of restraint and reason, we may or may not indulge to that satisfaction. There are people out there who knows that some will fall through the cracks and want to buy it. They're just playing the market on how it is. It's supply and demand. If someone, despite the method, provides an item that is highly demanded, of course they would be able to sell it. It's more often the case on how many of us, the consumers, are willing to cough up.
       
    15. Are we allowed to name scalpers on Ebay over here? I don't think we are... I think scalpers on DoA aggravate the members just as much, if not more, than those on Ebay. It's just that we aren't supposed to name them so we don't. I'm pretty sure individually, we know who they are. I'm hearing the mentality from a few that hey, she's my friend so if she wants to scalp, good on her. To that, what can I say? I'm not going to ask you to stop being friends. But I just think it's unreasonable that people are upset when others say they dislike scalping.

      And this is what I posted on the first page:

      I think you'll also note that there are others who don't like scalpers and say they won't buy from them. So we are, in a sense, putting our money where our mouths are.


      Eh, I was the one who thought the comparison of dolls to houses was weak, not the one who made the comparison. I haven't heard of house scalping though. I would think the market price would be a bit hard to estimate, especially if one wants to turn a high profit in a matter of one week. But I'm not watching house prices and I don't want to go off-topic, so I'll leave that be.

      Curiously, is there such a thing as limited doujinshi? Why I don't like the doujinshi comparisons and the house comparisons is that I feel like each hobby has different aspects that have to be considered invidually. To scalp a doujinshi in Japan, you would have to sell to somewhere other than Japan. Another thing is that in time, the comics might be translated and eventually sold in the US. For BJDs, you have to take into consideration that even people in Japan can lose out to scalpers. Other companies online get scalped just as much, so the people who have access to it, still don't get the dolls even if they have money because scalpers have swooped in. And when limiteds are scalped, they're gone, cause there isn't a rerelease.

      If a scalper only profits USD8, are we supposed to sympathize?

      I try not to misunderstand but it almost sounds like because scalpers risk their money, we should understand them. No. Most of this entire hobby is based on credit cards. And most scalpers will break even if they can't make a high profit anyway. There is nearly no risk in this matter. In all honesty, I believe only those who have quite a substantial amount of money and a high credit limit are scalpers. With that amount of cash, they've decided to take the fast route of scalping that has nearly no risk in this expensive hobby. So, I lack sympathy for them.

      rkold, your last paragraph on prices...I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say actually. You see some limiteds selling near to base price. I would say that's because they're not sold by scalpers. But you seem to be discounting any other incident where the limiteds are sold at a much higher price, because you think they're out of the norm. If our norm involved scalpers and crazy prices, I would say that we should be very, very afraid for our money.
       
    16. Doujinshi are limited in that only a certain number are produced, and it's rare that they're ever reproduced. The only difference is that they tend to be published on a much higher ratio than BJDs, depending on the circle, and very popular circles can go for much more on the second hand market.
       
    17. I would definately like to clarify that I believe there is a difference between someone who just happens to be selling their limited, and someone who is buying a limited, ONLY for the purpose of turning around and selling it for a HUGE mark-up (Usually 2 or 3 times the original cost)

      I have no problem with someone who buys a Limited, and then monthes down the road decides to sell him. If people jack up the offers until it reaches double what it was originally, well, hey, that's the luck of the seller!

      However, it really annoys me when people buy something only for the intent of selling it later for double or triple cost. I once had someone in a comic book shop snag every one of a limited run of a Wonder Woman figure, and that's what i went to the store to get. When i said something about it, he turned around, looked at me and said "I'll sell you one for 40 bucks". Considering the figure originally went for 11.99, i was a little pissed.
       
    18. The people who buy limited dolls at Dolpa (or whatever) and then mark them up a LITTLE for resale are not scalpers in my eyes. If I stood in line for hours and hours at a Dolpa to get a $900 LE doll, I would most certainly sell it for a bit more, maybe $1100, because I stood in line, etc, and am able to provide the doll to someone who wants it but who wasn't able to go to that particular Dolpa (or whatever).
      The people who log onto eluts.com at the date and time that a LE is supposed to be released and then buy one (or more!) to resell are scalpers.
       

    19. Thank you, it's always good to learn something new. Still, not an exact representation of scalping limited BJDs either, is it?

      In case anyone was wondering how the topic of houses and doujinshi came up, it started with a comparison of house prices to BJD, and then a comparison to how someone scalps books and thinks it's fine. In the end, I still think such comparisons aren't fantastic comparisons in relation to BJDs, as I've mentioned above. And personally, I don't see any of those cases of scalping as great, wonderful things to be embraced either.

      One final point before I need to bid this thread adieu, selling for a higher price does not immediately make it scalping, in my point of view. Some people seem offended because they think if they sell their limited dolls that they own for a higher price (through auction or such), then it's immediately scalping. Rest assured, not everyone thinks of that as scalping. Several people in this thread have already touched on that, so, I'm just stating my opinion.
       
    20. I have seen in the marketplace people post threads stating "OMG this person on eBay is a scalper". I have seen when someone posted I think a Papi with a very high asking price, people respond in thread "Ohhh, You're a scalper!" At some point a mod does usually step in, but not until several posts have been made and generally quite a few people have gotten a chance to see that those people are considered scalpers.

      There are people who I personally think are scalping just as much or worse, and instead their sales threads are recommended to those wanting to buy the items they are scalping.

      And I think there is a difference between disliking scalping or ranting in your LJ about it and the people who do actively price police, and I guess I would prefer not to see people price police. Y!J does not charge insertion fees, which is why you will sometimes see people asking ridiculous prices for items. People just ignore them, I would prefer to see that here as well.

      This is OT, and people don't call it "scalping" they term it "speculating", but yes, it happens in the housing market and drives up prices, or did the housing bubble has mostly burst.

      Yeah for more OT! XD;

      All doujinshi are limited. Most books have I believe a 2500 copy run or less, which is how I believe they get past the copyright infringement bit :P (We can make some guesses about various LE #s, but Volks for one rarely releases the amount) Doujinshi might get fan translated (where you can download zips then) but they do not get licensed, again see the copyright infringement issue. Doujinshi have a much larger fanbase than ABJDs do, at least in Japan. Tokyo Dolpa is the largest doll event in Japan and has about 750 spaces, the smallest Comic City is 4000 spaces. So a release of 2500 books is not so very large.

      Japanese people scalp doujinshi to other Japanese people on Y!J. Code Geass doujinshi were selling for insane amounts there in Jan.

      And to be fair, people here are talking about dolls being scalped to foreigners for the most part as well, and not to say the Japanese.

      No. I said specifically I'm not asking you to sympathize with a scalper.

      In Japan credit cards do not work like they do in the US and nearly everyone pays cash. A Japanese scalper is very likely to have paid cash for their Dolpa LE as well. If someone wants to risk their money like that, then yes I do think the reason is they are hoping to make a large profit and I'm not saying I sympathize with them, but I can understand why a scalper charges what they do. I think it is important to understand other people's motivations, even if I do not agree with them. Just because I can understand them, does not mean I plan to personally buy from them either. (Well except in the case of the doujinshi scalper :P ) And I disagree, I think there is a significant risk. Generally scalpers need to buy something before it has been proven that their is a market for it.

      My last paragraph on prices is in reaction to yours about most Volks LE prices being 1K or more. And the answer is yes, most Volks LE's have prices over 1K, because they started that way and have not lost any value yet. It has nothing to do with scalpers.

      Scalpers are also NOT the reason Sasha, has a a high price tag or Tsukasa or even Madoka. The same is true of Berman. All of them have a high price tag because demand far outstrips supply. (And in those cases the majority of the supply was bought by fans who are now sometimes enticed to sell because of the "market value" which the majority of people posting here seem to think is legit.) People might have bought Shizu with the plan to scalp her, but only because they already knew Madoka was highly sought after, the scalpers did not make the market, it pre-existed them and they're taking advantage of it.

      If all the scalpers out there bought up the remaining stock of BF's Sweet Day Louis, would he suddenly become super popular and sell for $1400? No. There is no demand. If the entire supply of SwD Kaede was bought only by scalpers, would she sell for thousands of dollars? No. Maybe a few would, and people might grouse, but when the majority sat unbought prices would correct themselves.

      I guess I just feel that while scalping is tacky, this strong dislike that I perceive people having to me is irrational. The scalpers in the long run are irrelevant and do not make the insane prices certain LEs sell for, we as buyers do.