Scalping and YOU.

I think it is scary how many times I've now been to TnS lol I think it's now 8 times? o_O;; I ended up going 2x last trip as I forgot to pick something up for someone that is a Sato exclusive. It's a lovely shop, though I miss Taemi-san.

I'm not going to name names as that is not proper, but at the moment someone is selling for close to 100% mark up an outfit I wanted from Dolpa 17. I got on the Sumika line at 6:45 am and was #92. Is it possible that if the person selling said outfit hadn't bought it I might have been able to get it? Sure. Is it possible I still would have missed out? Sure. Am I complaining about the situation, not really, just making plans to try the AE (and celebrating I did get Shin and Lin who I wanted more.) It's really easy to see how tempting it is to get things to sell. It is a risk, but also a way to help cover the costs of a very expensive hobby.

It's really important not to underestimate the value of points especially when you're placing orders on a fairly regular basis.

You're very welcome Janne. lol Truth be told I don't begrudge either services or scalpers their money, even when I have been the person who has lost out, like in the above example.

I just do my best to always be fair in my personal dealings since you can only really work your own garden. ^_^

 

I see both sides on the Y!J scalpers thing. At an afterevent, I waited from 6 am till 11 am in line along with the scalpers for the chance to buy a SwD Rengemaru. It was chilly, it was boring, it regally sucked. When it came down to it, there was a lottery. I went home empty handed and miserable, a scalper near me went home with one of each of the Nagoya Dolpa 2 LEs. They "earned" their profit by spending their time, but it doesn't make me any less bitter about it.

For FCS, a friend in Japan recently placed an FCS order for me. Where it CAN take 20-30 minutes to place an order, it took her the better part of the day because she had to wait her turn in line. I had asked another friend (who is a Japanese speaker) to translate the custom faceup description, and the gentleman who took the order grilled her for extra details and specifics . If my friend hadn't had a decent grasp on language, especially dolly-related language, I'm not sure what would have happened! I imagine myself in that situation (my Japanese is survival level at best)... and I definitely understand the fee for people who place FCS orders for strangers - I will be sending my friend all of the Mounds bars and Ovaltine that she could possibly want!

I mostly get mad when I see people buying stuff off of websites, then reselling to great profit as soon as it arrives. I understand that things come up... and I'd hesitate to label anyone a scalper... but it seems a crazy coincidence to see so many cars dying and cats needing surgery immediately after a Dolpa online After Event.

For specific prices, I don't have a set scalping value. It depends on how the person acquired the item... if someone paid $2,500 for a Kurumi on Y!J, I'm not going to expect them to resell her for retail. However, if someone snags a Tsukasa One Off at the NYC Tea for $1,000 and then tries to sell it immediately for $4k, THAT would be scalping and that would be inexcuseable. That sort of thing really pisses me off. It has nothing to do with my own "sentimental" attachment to dolls - it's everything to do with the fact that I don't like to see people taking advantage of other people that way. A close friend of mine has a great term for it - "dolly cannibalism."

 

I agree with this completely - you've expressed what I was thinking perfectly, as did Dolly, earlier in the thread.

I do think there's a big difference between the secondary market and the scalping of new dolls. The secondary market will always be determined by the rarity and popularity of the dolls, and that's a different issue, and a separate one to people buying new dolls and selling them for profit.

It makes me really upset when people buy new LE or rare dolls from web lotteries with the specific intent to profit. Scalpers kind of made a twisted sense earlier in the hobby, when it was hard for international customers to enter lotteries for limiteds. But now, it's pretty much possible for anyone to enter any lottery, so a scalper is more likely to be taking dolls away from people who really want them in order to make themselves some money. They don't necessarily make it easier to get dolls, either - you still have to be in the right place at the right time, the first to start a thread, or you have to fight everyone else off on eBay or y!j.

Bermanns and Unoas are examples where it really annoys me, because there are often so few to start with that scalpers really have an effect - and a scalper in the Unoa lottery won't make it easier for me to get a Unoa later, it'll just lower my chances, and probably mean there's one more Unoa $500-$1000 out of my price range on the secondary market a week later.

And as for people who buy limiteds but don't bond with them, people won't really be suspicious - unless, of course, you buy multiple LEs evey Dolpa and mysteriously don't bond with them every time. Everyone understands not liking a doll as much as you'd thought, or needing to sell one because of financial problems - but it's really only serial sellers who're likely to be scrutinised.

Just my two cents of total ramble. ^^;;

 

Scalping huh? The solution is really simple. If no-one pays inflated prices, then no-one makes a profit.

Unfortunately, there are greedy people on both sides of the counter - selling and buying, and of course, the market sets the price.

It's hard to imagine that anyone's making a living out of scalping - not enough dolls, too much of a lottery and too high risk. If someone wants to make a few quid once in a while, and someone else is willing to fund it ... I don't see the harm.

All the whingeing seems to be "It's not fair". Why should one person have more right to a doll than another just because one queues up and the other has more money. I wonder, perhaps, if the end customer is MORE deserving because they are prepared to spend so much more? Does that make their commitment higher?

 

I was talking to my friend earlier about this and i got a mixed reaction. He said he buys stuff from hong kong and then sell it on ebay for a higher price... my cousin done that as well before he charges the extra shipping fee from Hong Kong to england and handling fee as u call it.

I don't kno. I get a bit miffed when ppl cause a doll to inflate at such a price. what annoyed me was this, when i first started BJDs i was put off by the price that was what my mum used to convince me the first time round about not getting a doll... over 9 months down the line, i've brought a doll and have another one saving up, another one coming and 2 more at the planning stage....

I fell in love with BJDs when i was on Caress of Venus but the doll that was my absolute love was neither F16/28 whatever he is now and School A but actually Tony SD13. He was the first 'standard' doll not customized that made me go 'wow' and i fell for that mold so being a noob i went on ebay to check... he was being sold £900! of u wanna kno how much that is, approx $1,800 yes i've seen them higher but if u go back to Volksusa they were sold for $700 or so... his price was 300% of the mark. I don't kno it made me very scared that all dolls were near a grand in GBP so i stayed away abit... I though £300 was on thing but £900?

I don't completely agree with scalping, my friend says u need to be part of it to understand...

 

I personally have the same statement as someone before.
Sure its a rather horrible way of going about it. But personally I am pretty sure they are a neccicary evil.
I personally never thought I would have my dream Mistyrose Roko, and cursed myself for not buying one. I got lucky and a really sweet lovely person sold me theirs. Im not saying that she is a scalper, not at all. I know she isnt, she is just one of the many that didnt want to have to worry about the yellowing of the resin. I was one of the lucky ones and got her almost at what I would have payed in the end for her. But honestly if I hadnt been lucky, the first thing I would have gone for is to try and look for a scalper.
I would probably have been willing to pay more then I care to admit if I hadnt found one.
So they are a necicery evil I say. They give us people a chance that either a) werent fast enough to buy one or b) didnt have the money at the time.
I personally bought a MNF Elf Shushu head, I did intend to keep it, I painted her and everything but I just didnt feel a bond. I also knew on the other hand that my friend that I talk to daily really wanted one and was so upset with herself for not having had the money at the time. I could have sold the head for alot more then what I payed for it just here on DoA, but in the end I offered my friend the head for the price I payed for it, (and then knocked some extra off since she is my friend and all).
I have to admit though, I got tempted to see what I could get for her. But in the end I am so much happier this way, my friend couldnt be happier. And I got first dibbs on buying her back if she ever sells it again. Shushu gets a home that is gona love her and me, I get a MNF Elf Shiwoo instead. XD
(Me and my friend kind of "share" our dolls abit, they dont ever stay over night unless she does aswell, but we sometimes have a dinner together with them around and such.)

 

Has anyone ever thought that the companies which produce the dolls are the reason that scalping exists? Why do they produce so many limited dolls? Why do they produce limiteds at the first place? So that some people can have dolls that other can't? It seems to me a little elitist thinking. There are the people who have limiteds, those that managed to get them because they had the money the right time, they were close by, there had friends to help them ... and those who also really want the doll, but didn't have the money at the right time, or weren't at the right place, or missed on a loterry etc...

If limiteds are so much wanted by everyone, wouldn't it be better for us and the company to have them as simple dolls with unlimited supply. Everyone would be happy about it and the company will make even more money. (in case they don't make enough already, which I highly doupt)

 

Obviously, scalpers aren't a nice thing to have in a hobby, especially when there's a limited you want and can't have unless you pay insane prices. But to me, it's got nothing to do with ethics, because at the end of the day they spent your money and bought the item that was out there, and you had the same chance as anyone else (luck, like in a lottery, is not counted in my opinon) with the money to buy it.

There isn't a doll-buyer's creed that says you can't buy a doll unless you have the intent to love and bond with it. So really, I don't see why so many people I know are offended and seem think that BJDs should be exempt from scalping, because business and resale is essentially a part of the real world.

Um, personally, I think it's just a business move, not so much an elitist thing. If you have a standard doll, sure, there'll be a lot you can sell over time, but people just put it on their 'waitlist' since they can get it basically whenever they have extra cash.

However, if the company decides to release a limited run, say 200, people jump on it so that they don't miss out, and the company then gets a calculated amount of profit. If they feel that amount of profit is worth it, and they'd rather have the fixed amount of money as opposed to not knowing how many they'd sell over a year or two years, it gives them a huge jump in sales in the short-term.

Of course, it doesn't always work, because sometimes limiteds take ages to sell as well, if they're just not well accepted.

Another thing would be, having a 'famous limited' like for example, woosoo or something, makes a company more well known I believe? All the hype makes people sit up and take notice, it's kind of like free advertising.

Anyway, all that aside, I don't think it's fair to say that it's the companies' faults that scalpers exist. It's sort of like saying its the car companies' faults that drunk drivers exist, IMHO.

 

In a lot of cases, limited dolls are ones that the manufacturer can't or won't make forever- maybe they had a special faceup artist who would only do an edition of 50, maybe a special colour of resin they want to do one run of and not have to mix up everytime someone orders a doll that colour, maybe a special outfit that has fabrics they may not be able to get in a few months, or next year, etc. While I do think that limited go over the top sometimes, BJD collecting would be a bit boring without any limiteds at all! Can you imagine if the only Volks dolls you could get were the main stock line? Not to stir up any fuss here (I love some of the standard SD/SD13s) but they don't exactly pick their nicest and most popular dolls to be standard, it's the oldest dolls, the ones that have been longstanding as standard dolls sine they were introduced, and they don't add new standard dolls very often at all. Imagine no sleeping heads, no new faces, no SD16, SDC, YoSD, etc etc... all of the things they do that might not be commercially viable if they were to become stadard, but that they know will sell if it's only a small edition.

Not to say that limited dolls are inherently better or anything, but think of all the beautiful limited dolls, I'm sure there are some that you like that are limited. Now think of none of them existing. It'd be a bit boring, wouldn't it?

 

I don't dislike scalpers much as long as they're frank about being making a profit but not way over the top. People who help others order FCS, it's a lot of work, and they deserve to make some profit from it. Others who've owned a few dolls and didn't bond and sell them off at reasonable market price then I wouldn't call that scalping.

For someone repeatedly bought limited dolls one after another and selling all of them off right away, making excuses for reselling then I hold some doubts.

I once owned a limited doll that I loved so much at first sight and we didn't bond so well because I'm used to smaller sized dolls. Then I have to sell her because of a line of unfortunate accidents in a row in a month(!), which was very sad. I did not try to sell her for what I paid for because a very kind-hearted person gave me the opportunity to purchase her in the first place without scalping me so I want to pass the same opportunity to someone else.

I agree though that limited dolls do helped scalping. It's kind of sad being unable to get dolls that I really want, but I always think of it as life. If there are people who are willing to pay more than me, then they deserve to own it because they can afford it. It's always happy to have something you can't afford or own, that way life won't be so boring. lol

 

I can't tell you how many times I have thought the same thing. There are several dolls I would LOVE to have, but I know I never will because they were limited and I can't afford it. I don't care about the "prestige" of having a limited doll as much as I care about having one I like. The prime example of this is Latidoll's Adel (one of their Red limiteds). I am absolutely in love with the face sculpt but it was limited to 10. Even if someone ever decided to sell theirs, there is no way I would have that much money. I hesitate to imagine how much he'd go for. I don't even need the full set... I just like the doll itself. If he were an unlimited, he'd be much cheaper, but I wouldn't care who else had one.

I understand if a doll gets discontinued, but deliberately releasing them in limited quantities creates a demand that the doll market is all too happy to perpetuate. There will always be doll collectors willing to pay increased prices, so the scalping market will continue to exist, even if some of us aren't happy about it.

 

So to answer your question, if they have an artist for a limited period of time to do their face ups, after that they can find another artist to do something similar. If they didn;t want to to create limiteds they wouldn;t have made an agreement with the first artist.

As for the borring part, with no new faces and no sleeping heads. I believe that Luts for example has many dolls and their sleeping faces as well in regular bases. Also Luts has released a lot of new doll sculps as regular dolls.

I agree with the idea of a regular doll being specially painted and dressed and then sold in a limited quantity. Why? Because I believe it's the doll itself that has more value to me. I don;t care if she has that wierd outfit made of 5$ tulle!!! Which is another thing showing how greedy some companies or people can be.

While I really do love some of Volks dolls, from the FCS and some limiteds, my sentiments for this company are really mixed. They make it very hard for many people to get a FCS and even harder to get a limited. Why would they not allow FCS through internet? I am perfectly capable of ordering my FCS by myself, why do they force me, to pay a stranger 25% of the price in order to get one! I am willing to spend the time and effort to get my FCS. The company creates that kind of scallping.

I can go on and on and find a thousand arguments, the bottom line is that companies are greedy, because that's how businesses work and how the world works. The dolls cost them half the money of the price, if not less and yet they want even more money. Scalping is a product of demand and supply and it is fueled by the companies. As I have said before, don;t hate the player, hate the game. There is nothing we can do about it and nagging or hating scalper or companies doesn;t change it or make it go away.

 

I have thought it many times but there seems to be a culture of "don't question the doll companies, they are working so hard on our behalf, etc." within the doll community. Scalping is perpetuated by the release of limiteds and the way in which the releases are marketed - building up the demand, releasing fewer than that demand, and releasing in a manner that makes the dolls readily available to resellers. I guess the benefit to the doll companies is that they get a lot of publicity and attention to their dolls when one is highly in demand and is not that available - everybody wants it and everybody is talking about it.

I greatly admire companies such as Elfdoll for releasing their limiteds in a separate stock edition too, so that people who are just in love with the sculpt can have one of their own without having to take a limited away from someone else who truly wanted the fullset. It not only makes the doll more available to all, it also makes it much easier to mod the dolls or wipe the faceups without feeling, or being made to feel, like you're committing some sort of unforgivable sin.

This is not unique to the world of dolls - many collectible items are sold in this manner. So I don't think that pointing out the behavior amounts to crucifying the doll company. The bottom line is that in trying to make their dolls, or certain dolls, "special", the company creates a situation where scalpers flourish. But it is easier to be angry at the "evil" scalpers than be angry at the "nice" doll companies, so people focus their frustration on the party that seems the most like the "bad guy" rather than realizing that it's a complex economic situation with no easy answer.

 

I don't think the companies are in the wrong, at all, for charging twice the cost of materials. What you're paying for isn't the materials, it's the artistry that brings them together into a beautiful package. It's also the myriad of other costs that various brands have to pay in order to be able to make dolls- whether it's showrooms and retail shops or just a warehouse and manufacturing facility, you can't run anything but the smallest of editions from a personal residence. And for every doll, except again for very small-edition cottage industry dolls, the sale goes to pay everyone who works for the company- not only the original sculptor, but the sale assistants if there is a brick and mortar shop, the webmaster and website assistants if there is not, the person who casts the molds, paints the faceup, sews the clothing the doll wears, packages the doll and settles the shipping arrangements, etc etc. Even in a small business with say 5 employees total, a doll that costs $300 to make in materials and $600 to sell, that leaves $60 per person, for all of the work that went into the doll, not to mention business taxes and such, have no idea how they work in Japan or Korea, but I wouldn't imagine that they get to keep all of that $300 profit either. And they may only sell a few dolls a week. A larger company like Volks sells loads of dolls every day (and have loads more expenses- rent on all of the showroom/Tenshi no Sumika locations, employees, etc), but some of the smaller companies' dolls don't really go like hotcakes. Do you begrudge the people who have the artistic ability to create your doll from a bucket of resin, a peice of string, and some jars of paint the monetary reward for creating such a beautiful thing? It's like telling a painter that you don't want to buy their painting for $500 because it only used $20 worth of paint and canvas. That's not the point- what you are buying isn't the paint and canvas, or the resin and s-hooks and elastic. What you're buying is the finished work.

I guess you could consider that greed. I consider it sensible business- why should they sell dolls at a price that doesn't reward them for their work?

As for the limited thing in general, I guess what I should have said is... a company doesn't want to make the same things forever. Limited dolls allow them to do something different without having to commit to making that one thing forever. The fans and the companies both like to have new options, new things all the time. If companies kept every doll they produced as a permanent stock item, they would have much less motivation to produce new things. It's the same with every business- to use the doll example, look at Barbie. They produce a new line of Barbies every few months, they aren't still making "Hollywood Hair" Barbie from the 80s, they made her for a few months, then made some other new type of Barbie, and a new type after that. Same with clothing stores. If all they sold, every year, were the same styles it would be very boring and nobody would buy anything. And we'd all be wearing clothes from decades ago because nobody ever created anything new, and nobody got tired of selling the same old things and decided to mix it up with new versions. Or cars- would you buy a new car if it hadn't been upgraded at all from the 1995 version? I could go on.

Part of the reasons businesses change stock so often is because they can sell more things by having new and exciting products to offer. This also means that the new and exciting product has to stop being made, at some point, so that something even newer and more exciting can be made after that, etc etc.

And another side note- I think the reason Volks doesn't offer an online FCS is that they prefer to be able to discuss things like the faceup with you, or show you the face sculpt and eye colours etc in person, so that you get an end product that you like. Some brands have an online choice service but you don't seem to get as much choice- for example, if you look at the LatiDoll Premium Makeup Service, which is a choice service for custom makeup, you only get to choose from a couple of set styles of eyebrows, set cheek colours, etc. You can't say "I want eyebrows like this picture, and lips in this colour, with lines like that, and purple eyeshadow with a bit of blue, and eyeliner like this" etc etc. FCS allows for a lot more choice but it would also make it difficult to complete clearly online. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see online FCS, but I understand why they don't do it.

 

Volks is a Japanese company, and the Japanese LOVE limited editions of just about anything. There are limited edition pocky flavours that are only available at certain times of the year or for a short amount of time and then that is it. No more. There is a definite culture promoting the exclusivity of things and many find that owning a desirable limited that you have had to really work to get enhances the experience. Sure some people think that if limited were to suddenly stop being limited, everyone would be happy, but I do not think that is the case. For whatever reason, companies choose which dolls are special and are only allowed in certain quantities. I don't think half as many people would be crazy over Bermann if he wasn't so limited. Owning one is like being part of a small, special club. That's the feeling a lot of companies are trying to create with their limiteds and it's a feeling that sells well.

FCS is not limited and Volks has very specific reasons as to why it is not available online. It's to do with a special, exclusive one on one experience they want with the owner during the creation of the doll. That's not something that can be done online.

There are plenty of companies that have nothing but standard dolls or few limiteds, so for those who don't care for limited releases do have choices. Volks also has quite a few very nice standard dolls that people seem to always overlook. Kun is one of the prettiest sculpts in existence, as far as I am concerned.

 

Uh, no, the companies want to survive. You need to make a profit in order to do that.

Expecting people to scrape by so -you- can pay less-- that's greed.

 

Tony was limited edition but not as popular as the others. I love Tony too and I got the last one from Volks USA as far as I know. I paid around $1000 for him.

 

Seems to me that a lot of people are blaming the doll manufacturers for producing limited editions. Don't be silly! The manufacturers don't benefit from scalping in any way. They produce limiteds because that's what the market demands - consumers want specials, uniques, OOAKs, one-offs, whatever field one is in.

The bottom line is, it's the collectors who create the scalpers. If people didn't get obsessed with wanting (or "needing") a particular doll, then they wouldn't pay inflated prices.

It's just consumerism gone mad, that's all. It's not limited to BJDs either - look at the ridiculous prices that were paid for Ty beanies, or fashion doll repaints, or Urban Vinyl over the last few years.

BJD scalpers are just a market trend. Sucking the collector in to an ever more expensive line is just what companies do to survive.

 

I write my personally thinking. =)
As a mater of fact I seldom paid retail for my dolls.
I own few LEs I bought costed me $2000 each,from YJAuctions.You pay the price because you think the doll worths it,for me it is that simple.

I don't think it is unfair to anyone about the rise of market price.
It happens all the time when there are excess demands=Why always do calculations?If you don't have the money,then don't buy it.

 

I agree. And those limited edition pocky flavours are soooo good! (Banana chocolate pockys! )

As much as I think doll manufacturers helped with scalping, I don't blame them. Without limiteds, a lot of doll owners won't be so crazy over dolls like we are now. There are many times I asked myself I'd still want SD Momoko if she wasn't so so limited, and I'm sure the desire to get her isn't as much if she wasn't so limited.