Second hand dolls: Shouldn't they be cheaper than new ones?

As a collector, I understand that the price of a secondhand doll can sometimes go up. And yes, everyone has the right to sell a doll for whatever they think it's worth. But unless the doll is rare, limited or sold out, I won't pay more than I would pay the company for it. I also won't pay more for a secondhand doll, because the seller wants to cover the customs fee they paid upon receiving it. What really ticks me off is when people say "I'm looking to get X amount of money, because that's how much I paid for the doll and shipping". I am not going to cover the shipping cost from whoever you bought it from to you.. I already have to pay for the shipping from you to me, what you paid for shipping when you bought it is not my problem.

Also, having to pay Paypal fees is a big no for me. I used to do that myself, but then I realized how stupid it is to charge a buyer for the fees you pay to be able to use a service. So now I either sell the doll for more or accept the fact that I'll be losing some money to Paypal. I avoid sellers who ask you to cover the fees or pay as ''friends or family'' if you won't.

 

This has already been mentioned, but it bears repeating. Getting ANYTHING into Europe costs a small fortune and is a total crapshoot of customs fees, shipping issues and general chaos so those of us collectors living here are quite prepared to shell out a premium on a doll that's already here just to save ourselves the hassle of importation.

Sadly, in the last few years, the hobby has definitely been divided by continent as a result and I think that is evident in the MP's. The rising prices of international EMS alone makes buying and selling to certain countries cost prohibitive, when you start to add in assorted fees and wait times, it's not a shock some people are willing to pay over the odds in order to get what they want with relative ease.

 

For people taking photos, a yellowed doll can be a pretty unfortunate circumstance. >_<; The aesthetic is compromised, which means more editing needed for photos. But also, they say the minute you drive a car off the lot, it instantly loses value--the depreciation is nearly mostly aesthetic at the very beginning since new car models and new features are being created so quickly. Dollies may be in a different sort of boat as they aren't necessarily outdated unless a new, better-functioning joint system is introduced, but cars aren't the only thing that lose value the moment you buy them. The same is done with perfectly functioning video games, DVDs, or CDs, and it's not like a book can suddenly start functioning less unless you're ripping the pages out... This probably mostly has to do with business-based mark-up. Anytime you buy from a company, you're automatically paying for more than what the item is really worth so that the retailer can make a profit. Apart from all of that, the reason why people buy second hand is to get a better deal. Otherwise, why not just buy brand new if you're not worried about shipping/waiting?? When buying used, you only have the seller's word to go off of that there really aren't any issues with the doll to the extent of their knowledge (no smoke smell, no noticeable yellowing sans a trick of the light, has the resin been weakened somehow?). So it is always kind of a bit of a gamble to buy second hand. I always figured the appeal to counteract that gamble would be some kind of discount.

 

There seems to be three separate issues here. (a) why do the sellers do it (b) do we feel it's legitimate and (c) would we pay it.

(a) They think they can get it.

(b)

Bingo. Not only that, the seller has had time to play with it, therefore they've gotten value for the purchase. If they didn't play with it, for whatever reason, well...too bad. Unfortunately, I fear the hobby is rife with people who impulse buy and find themselves with dolls they don't really want and are trying to absolve themselves by this particular ploy. Me.... I'm not going to pay for their lack of control.

(c) The only things I've purchased on the MP, I got for less than the original, and their previous owners were people I thoroughly enjoyed dealing with. These are people who realize that resin ages. It gets brittle. Elastic wears and needs tightening or replacing. If the doll has been posed a lot, the resin has worn smooth and you're going to have to do something to get it to hold. Purchasing a second hand doll of a sculpt still readily available is purchasing a used item. There's nothing "collectible" about it at that point. It won't BE collectible until it's no longer in production, and even then, until the company is out of business, there's always the chance they'll put it back into production.

I'd never pay more just to get it a few months faster---unless I intended it for a gift and wanted to be there when the recipient opened it, but even that...I'd be more likely to give them a picture and say "it gets here when it gets here." For my own purchases, I'm not so desperate for something to do that I must have it ASAP. Besides I rather enjoy the anticipation of the wait. When I buy on the MP and get it in a handful of days, it's like purchasing a new Hard Drive for the computer. When I order it and wait and wait and suddenly that "shipped" email shows up and I watch it went its way across the world through the tracking number...then open it and see that unique little face for the first time...that's just kinda cool.

Most importantly of all...I want the companies to stay in business. Unless I see a deal I can't pass up on the MP, I'll always opt to support the company.

 

I'm about to put a new doll I didn't attach to back on the market. I'm not going to charge manufacturer price for him, but I am going to get back what I paid but include all the extras that I bought to go with him, extra head, wig, and eyes, complementary. But asking closer to what I paid, I have more wiggle room to move it down if I'm a little over someone's budget.

 

Which companies are you thinking about, if you don't mind my asking? I have BJDs that were cast in 1999, and their resin hasn't gotten "brittle" in any way. If you're experiencing some major change in the durability, density, or texture -- as opposed to the color -- of a doll, then it seems as if you might have some poor-quality resin on your hands.

Also, you go on to suggest that BJDs need help (sueding?) with posing only when they're old and the resin has worn smooth with friction; your point, if I'm understanding you correctly, is that this wear is a major reason why secondhand dolls should be sold cheaply. The problem with this argument is that your premise really isn't accurate -- many brand-new BJD bodies need sueding, silicone discs, or some other minor mod right out of the box in order to hold poses well. The joint engineering is the real variable here, not the age of the joints.

I appreciate your point about supporting the companies, and I'm sorry to raise objections to these other two points, but I really hate to see misinformation spread around in such an authoritative-sounding way.

 

Thank you so much for bringing this up! I could not have said it better myself.

 

You are missing the fact that you don't get to set the price.

If you were selling a doll, would you want someone else to come along and say-- "hey--you MUST sell the doll for this price because I think that's the right price"???

If you sell things, you get to price it. The buyer gets to say, "No way would I pay that!!!" And you can ignore them, OR if no one is buying and you need to sell, then you can lower the price and hope it will sell. Sometimes you will have to lower the price a LOT in order to sell.

That's how the system works! It's "supply and demand." If you have the only supply of something--it's rare or whatever, then you can jack the price up and people will pay it if they want that item. If there is NO demand, then it doesn't matter what you paid or what the item is worth or if it is super-rare. You have to adjust the price to sell (adjust it to the market price).

It's a basic tenent of the marketplace, ANY marketplace!!! Unless there are some weird regulations in place that mess with that, anyway. But in a relatively free market, that's how it works.


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Look, I don't like paying for people's extra costs, either... but my power is that I don't have to buy. People will often start high and lower their prices. If they go down enough, I've bought. If they don't go down and I don't want the doll enough to pay that much, then I won't buy--or maybe I will want to just buy it and not worry about hunting down another. But it's up to me. It's really an easy thing and no big deal.

 

That's all understandable, but kind of worries me a little. Actually because, if there are a good number of folks who pay so much more because they simply didn't know any better or didn't have the courage or patience to wait the price down, then prices can start to get inflated. And some folks can use this to their advantage to over-inflate the price of a product so they can buy and sell and make an actual profit... they essentially end up abusing the market. I don't routinely keep watch on the marketplace here, so I don't really know the trends. I'm just easily paranoid about these kind of things. .___. ;; In fact, I'm thinking the marketplace here is probably pretty good at self-regulating itself since so many people are easily willing to haggle a price down.

But all that said, I think it's great to have a discussion like this so that people can compare their opinions and get insight on why there's a price increase in the first place. That way they can decide on whether or not they'd still like to pay out based on that knowledge. And if they do, welp... they do...!

 

According to true marketing, it should be lower than retail price.

 

before I buy anything, I always do price comparison research. plus, I see if there are acceptable substitutions. also, who is selling and why. I've paid fair prices (vs the bargain prices I would prefer) because of the seller(s) reason(s) to sell, and also for things that show up less often. I will not pay a premium for wait time and am all for giving the gift recipient a photo and waiting for the item's arrival.

For the other variables: face ups are not valuable to me - in fact I'll have to spend time to remove them and worry about staining. I might like the clothes included, but I'm not buying the character, and if I'm charged for them, I'd rather just buy the naked doll for less. If there are chips and mods and yellowing etc, I expect the asking price to reflect them, too. If the item doesn't come with CoA when one is provided by the manufacturer, then the price should reflect that as well.

I get that things might not be worth selling if it dropped to a certain price. Guess that's when one looks for alternative means of disposal. IMO collecting dolls is like collecting art (unless we're talking blue chip art) or anything else the value of which is based mostly on emotions - make the investment based on one's enjoyment of the item, and not on any possible financial returns. Resin doesn't have an objective market value like gold does.

 

I've been checking out the bjd market for over ten years. Believe me, it was way, way worse as far as pricing in the early days. Now you can usually get a doll for a decent price and often you can get a doll for just a fraction of the original retail price.

If people want to pay more to get a doll--that's their business. Sure, it sucks for people who want the doll for less, but that's life. If you're selling dolls (which most doll owners find themselves doing now and then), then you can understand that you'd prefer people who would buy at the price you want to sell for, and would be not as happy to sell at a much lower price. It's a two way street. The buyers always want lower prices, the sellers don't want to sell for next to nothing.

Second-hand does not always mean the item is worth less than retail. If you look at any kind of marketplace at all, you will find that many things sell for much more. It all depends on what people are buying and how much they are willing to pay for it.

Many dolls are limited. If you are talking about dolls that are always in-stock and basic, then, yeah, it's crazy to buy for more than you can buy it new ---Although... if someone wants to be crazy, that's their own business--maybe they have their reasons! Maybe they are getting a gift and need it in a certain time-frame? Maybe the doll has a special faceup that none of the others has? Maybe they like the owner and want them to get a good price? Who knows? But it's their business!

But, look, that is NOT going to be a common thing! Most people will want to buy for less.

And sellers want to sell. They aren't going to sell if they have prices that are too high and people won't buy.

So I don't think this will be a problem!

MOST dolls, however, are not basic and not in-stock. Most are sold out and limited. There are many times when someone has been searching for a doll for YEARS. If they find one for over the retail, they might just buy it if they can afford it, because it may be the only opportunity. That's just how it goes. Sure, someone may then put the same doll up for sale for less, but that's also how it goes. You just see what you can afford and if you determine it's worth it to you, you buy it and just have to be happy.

But prices of bjds have been gradually falling ever since bjds have been around. I don't think anyone needs to be concerned... even if they can't find the doll at the price they want, usually all they have to do is keep searching and wait. But maybe they will never find it. That's why they might take the risk and pay more. It depends on how much you want the doll, really. It's a rare situation, though. Most dolls will sell second-hand for less.

...but it's still the right of the seller to set their price. And the right of the buyer to not buy it!

 

What are some of the problems of buying a used doll and how do you tell what a good price should be?

 

It has been a bit more than a year since the last post on the subject, so I am wondering if things have changed. The economy still is down everywhere, but the only thing that never changes is that there always change. Here's to it all improving for everyone! I have seen BJD likened to cars, but don't see the comparison at all. Cars depreciate because they wear out. Special cars still sell for much more (ten of thousands and millions) than they originally cost, and there are many car enthusiasts out there who have something in their garages that used to be all over the roads, but not so much anymore, that they are spending fortunes on renovating (talk about an expensive hobby......). These types of cars appreciate in value.

I do not really understand the used bjd thing. Does the resin have a shelf life? old dolls are outdated? Do the tires get bald? The dolls' engines need an overhaul? I thought these were essentially a collectible, an art object in the first place. Though bjd have been in existence for a long time, this type of bjd is quite new, historically speaking, came about only 16-17 years ago. I can see that well maintained early dolls could eventually escalate out of sight. Dolls made today seem nicer than some of the very early ones, but I have never seen any really early ones in the flesh, or in the resin as it were.

I can see heavily modded, damaged dolls losing some potential value, but who knows where even these examples will be in one or two hundred years from now. Who knows, maybe everyone will have a 3-D printer at home, and they pay for the artist's design. Anything crafted by hand, or with an artist's design is valued. I think these dolls will end up appreciating in value, depending on the condition.

Would I pay more for a (and here we need to think of a better and more descriptive phrase than used or pre-owned, after all, nobody calls the Mona Lisa a used painting) doll if it were selling for less from the company? Probably not. If the doll is no longer being produced? Yes, I might, indeed there is a doll I would love to be able to find on MP, as soon as I am able to access it. I understand adding on customs, etc., that I would pay if I had imported the doll in the first place. I can see that some in the EU would also do so without batting an eye as their customs, etc. is so infamously onerous. Condition, rarity, having the original box, the CoA is important. I won't pay for someone's character if I even engaged in that activity, (and I don't,), I would have my own. I would not want a stained, tattooed or modded doll. If I really, really wanted the doll, I might pay the first price stated so as to not miss out or get-out bid. I would not pay more to avoid a wait. In the end, you have to depend on the honesty of the seller, and if the doll is misrepresented, there must be a way warn others, a blacklisting, some way to stop that person from doing it again.

The market is self regulating, supply and demand rules the day. As more people get into this, as the population grows, vintage (ahh! there is the term I was looking for above), yes, vintage dolls will not increase in number. The price will hold or go up. The economy will improve, and then fall again, then improve, and so on, and so on....

 

Right... some things go up and some go down and some remain the same. Check out Antiques Roadshow to know that some really old things can go up and some don't, but not everything old means cheaper. Although it CAN mean cheaper than retail/new!!! Most BJD owners trying to sell dolls will complain about dolls not selling or not holding their prices. Years ago BJDs held prices or went up DRASTICALLY. Now, prices of dolls have fallen a lot. Not, like, cheap, because these aren't cheap dolls, (if they start at $1,000, they are still going to be hundreds of dollars when being re-sold. That only makes sense).

 

It's economics, demand will eventually set the price or the thread will go cold. If they post too high, it won't sell. It could be that they are attempting to recoup costs, as a faceup adds $50 and then there is shipping or customs fees. Or they are out of touch with current market trends, or are making a poor decision in attempting to profit from a longer wait for a new one.

Second hand dolls should not be disregarded simply because they had a previous identity with someone else. As a buyer and seller of dolls on the marketplace i can attest to the care that goes into this hobby.

 

I think the price will be up to the seller. If I would sell my dolls, I'd probably price them the same or a little less than the original price..

Buying is different though, If it's a limited edition, the higher price makes sense.
If not, I'd rather order a new doll.

Some people might buy 2nd hand dolls for higher prices so that they won't have to wait anymore or if the seller is nearby = 0 shipping.

 

Do not know if this has already been mentioned but it also might be that the seller put in a lot of emotions so to them the doll really is worth that much. We are in a hobby where most of us feel connected to our dolls and see them as our little artsy babies.. also maybe they have a more expensive faceup done by someone proffesionally or you will get extras with it.. even if not.. I think most of it is an emotional thing. Also another theory could be that they want people to really seriously be interested and feel connected to the doll so that it gets a good home? once again.. probably has to do with the emotion and effort that they put in to their doll