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Selling someone else's doll?

Aug 20, 2009

    1. I've been taking commissions for... 4 years and have fortunately never had this happen. I'm not sure what I'd do!

      I'd probably wait 6 months. If I had done an expensive modification or customization, I would be more likely to sell the head to try to recoup my costs. What else is there to do, really? I wouldn't undo the work and send it back, because then I'm STILL out the labor and materials even if the owner is deprived of the opportunity to enjoy the work. And then I've also invested the time into cleaning and basically restoring! And I'm sure not eating the shipping to send out a finished product with no guarantee that I'll ever be paid. While the doll head does definitely have a set market price, labor and materials aren't free... and it's unfair for the artist to get stiffed either. (I enjoy working on dolls, but I really only take commissions from strangers as a means to supplement my income.)

      Someone asked why an artist would charge on completion. This is the way I take commissions - I tend to feel that this is a good show of faith because it doesn't give me all the power in the business relationship (as opposed to having both the head and the payment). It also means that sending payment is the final approval, so later no one could argue that the work was sent out without their approval. Additionally, if I were suddenly unable to complete the work, I wouldn't have to scrounge to find money to refund the owner (though I don't spend the payment until after the head has arrived with its owner either!).
       
    2. Not being a professional face up artist I can't say I've had experience, but I would definitely send a letter to the address it came from if I had it, because as AmyAngel said, someone should be checking their mail if they are in hospital or worse.

      If they weren't traceable for a reasonable amount of time I would sell the doll for either the commision price if they had paid, or give it away in some kid of competition if unpaid. Wouldn't feel right to profit from their ill fortune, whatever it was. Hard to stop the next person from doing that though!
       
    3. I'd probably wait 6-8 months, with lots of attempts at contacting the person. In theory with the original box you would have their address and name, which you can also use to look up a phone number. However, I'm not sure what you'd do if they had the doll sent direct from the factory to you....

      Still, there's always the email address. At the end of the 6-8 months I'd start sending them emails like "In 45 days, if I haven't heard from you, I will consider the doll abandoned property" and then count down from there. "In 30 days..." "In 15 days..." "In one week..." And then send the certified letter. (Though would you need it if you had proof that you'd warned the person about considering it abandoned property?)
       
    4. In regard to not giving a phone number to someone, I have to say, if I'm going to trust someone to hold on to some very expensive property of mine, I'm going to make sure they have my phone number, and hopefully, I will also have theirs for the very same reason.

      Personally, if I were in the customizer's shoes, I'd wait a year before considering it and extensive attempts at contact through PM, email, phone, and standard mail. After about six months, I would likely send a notice through registered mail explaining the situation and reminding them about their head, and that if there was no contact within six more months, it would be sold on -- and see if the letter is returned or not as 'recipient not at address' or something similar. That's something I'd consider helpful information either way. I'd also want to lay this policy out in big, glowing letters in any relevant sales area.

      Realistically, though, knowing me? It would sit in my house for an unholy forever, until I heard something, or until I have to move. I've had this happen with human jewelry commissions more than once, and have just been stuck with the loss on any special supplies and time spent on it. I added two pieces like this, after five years, to the stock we bring to shows, but naturally, they are distinctive enough that neither of them has sold to a random customer.
       
    5. Hm... how would one go about sending a 'registered letter'? I mean like... I want to start doing commissions soon so I want to know all these ins and outs. Maybe I should start a new thread asking if people should be asking for payment up front...
       
    6. I am not sure how it works in Canada, but in the US we have the option at the post office to send a letter "registered", which means we pay extra for a return receipt. This comes back to the original sender, proving that the letter was delivered and that *someone* at that address using that name signed for it.
       
    7. Flying Wind; usually you ask for payment up front regardless - unless it's a large item on layaway. It's usually to stop people from getting free commissions/items from you without your consent. It's a pity, but sometimes you can't trust people these days :(

      ETA: Armeleia, that's a good way to show trust. I never thought of that.

      I personally wouldn't want to be in the position to sell someone else's doll... But then again, no one would. In the end, I still wouldn't do it, unless it's been something silly like two years.

      I'd be worried about the people who 'claim' that you haven't been in contact with them for months and then sell your doll - utter nightmare.
       
    8. I'd try to contact the owner many, many times, and wait a very long time (over a year at the least) before I'd even think about doing something so drastic.
       
    9. If the 'absent customer' was active here, and someone made the claim that they couldn't be contacted, I think it would be fairly easy for the 'inability to contact' to be disproven. All someone would have to do is speak up. Considering how many people on this forum are on other doll forums as well, even if someone tried a scam like this to sell the head on another forum, it would likely be spotted quickly and word would get back to the customer.

      I wouldn't think this would be too great a concern. It would kill the customizer's business outright the moment anyone got wind of a scam of this type, and unless it was someone trying to make a buck and dive out of the hobby fast, it simply wouldn't be in their best interest to pull that kind of nonsense. That assumes that people tend to act in their own best interest, which is something of a leap in itself, but really, it isn't something I would worry too terribly much about if someone had a clause like this in their commissions thread.
       
    10. It's the same in Canada as well.

      And it's the only legal way to claim items that have been sent to you for work to be done. Emails do NOT cut it legally (too many ways to falsify emails once sent on both the senders and receivers end). Neither do PMs or phone calls, even. Of course, if you did sell a head or something sent to you, it would be wise to keep copies of all messages and emails sent to the other person if the other person "popped up" after months and months of no contact.


      And yes, I'm sure some people try and exploit this, for sure. But bad people try to exploit everything that's in place to protect the customizers and buyers in these things. The reason it's legal to do this to begin with is to make sure people putting out services aren't screwed out of their time and money by someone who doesn't have the money, or just flat out doesn't care.


      And on the point Surreality said, if the member who 'abandoned' the doll was active on here, the bad guy trying to exploit this would be caught pretty damn quickly, don't you think?
       
    11. Oh, absolutely!
      But that wouldn't solve the problem for the customer whose doll is gone. Although it would screw up the potential business side for the customizer; how is the customer going to get the doll back? The paging threads sorta show my point; everyone knows about them, but at the end of the day; what's that gonna help with for the wronged? You can only hope that the wronger (?) is good enough to send the doll back.

      This idea is coming from the scammer anology; it's definitely true that not everyone is out to steal your dolls. :)
       
    12. I've heard of people sending heads without the headcap as a means to avoid theft... I would think it would be fairly effective.

      By and large, though, I've found that most people are honest... and while there are occasionally scammers, they are greatly outweighed by the number of honest people. I don't think any legitimate customizer would ever want to sell abandoned property.

      I don't think there's any reason to be concerned that this is the next great scam. To pull it off, someone would have to build enough of a reputation that people would actually send them heads (and not just any heads, but ones that actually have a good resale), and then they would have to wait a certain amount of time (probably 6+ months) before selling the head... without getting paged by the owner. If someone's looking for a quick buck, this just isn't the way.
       
    13. This happened to me not too long ago!!
      The owner of two SD sized boy heads kind of disappeared for about four months I think it was??
      I did everything I could to contact the person. In my commish thread I ask everyone to include a note with all their contact info just in case, but in this instance the note had no info except the person's DOA ID on it. The return address on the box was sketchily handwritten and included no name. I knew the owner's first name, but not her last!! I did send a snailmail letter (two actually) to her at the address and still got no reply.
      I tried paging here, but what worked was that another member found her on facebook and got in touch with her for me (since I'm not on that and didn't want to register).
      Finally she contacted me via email and then by PM here.

      I don't know what happened, but it has made me a bit wary. I need to delineate a policy for this kind of thing in the future, I guess, but it's pretty rare.

      I've been doing faceups 'professionally' here for almost 2 years now.
      Raven
       
    14. What if, say, someone disappeared, and the customizer waited for a reasonable amount of time, tried to get in contact, etc, and decided instead of selling the head to get a body for it and call it their own. If, after a year or more, the doll's original owner pops up demanding their head back, should the customizer be forced to return it? Or are they justified in keeping it for themselves.
       
    15. I personally don't believe so. Obviously the buyer must pay for the work that's been done if they want it back, but it is legally their property. To still have it in your possession and say the buyer can't have it back is, in my eyes, theft, no matter what time period has passed.

      And if you shared addresses with the buyer, you're opening yourself up to a boatload of trouble. More so, if the buyer still has emails or PMs they shared with you which they can use to easily prove ownership.
       
    16. QFT. Unless something literally happens to you where you physically are unable to do anything (injury, coma) you should be able to contact someone who you sent your doll to. Phone, mail, email, SOMETHING. 6 months of MIA is ridiculous to me.

      Although most pay upfront for services, they pay later after customization for shipping back to them. So without contact the customizer would be out of that amount. Also, I would be a bit iffy on sending a doll to an address that the person may or may not be at. Customization usually takes a while, (I've had it take 5 months before for a faceup) people can move/whatever during that time. I've never done a customization but as a seller who has taken layaways, I always confirm the address before I ship. If the person has moved, or can't pick up mail for whatever reason, the package would just get returned or worse stolen! :o

      I wouldn't be too worried about that. I don't know the workings of this forum but as a former mod/admin of other forums, we can see PMs other members send to each other. So if someone was claiming someone else did not contact them it could always be checked. Also the paging system on this forum is an excellent way to get in contact with someone in public so they couldn't claim you weren't trying to reach them.


      But I think this situation could also be applied to layaways. A person could "flake out" on payment. I know lots of people say "all payments nonrefundable" or only a percentage refundable to protect themselves. But if a person "disappears", how long would you wait before reselling it to someone else? A bit different because the item would be originally yours but same basic concept I think.
       
    17. Well, personally, if I was set in this situation, I'd send a certified letter and see what came of it (If that information was offered and correct.). I don't think I could bring myself to sell anyone's things, even if they never paid and never claimed it. I'd keep it myself, that way I could always send it back, just in case it was claimed some time after. Sometimes things happen, and dolls are usually very very loved, so I couldn't just say, no pay, no doll. If it's been abandoned, and a good long time passes, I'd have to just keep it. Weather I liked the doll or not.

      After a year or so, I can't imagine that any lawsuit could really hold you to returning it (Or being held responsible for selling it). If you yourself can feel right with doing so, as I have said, I don't think I could sell someone else's things myself.

      So long as you keep yourself protected with a paper trail, and express how much you have/had tried to get in contact with this said person. If certified mail is returned to you, and you never open it, I'm pretty sure that would sum up how much you've tried to get into contact with this person. Email is good that way too, so long as you get a double of every mail sent to this said person. And send several. Not just one email/certified letter, but like three (At least). This expresses to any person that you have done your end to try and cooperate, but after so long, even the most tolerant of people have to draw the line.

      I think of this situation a lot like a stray dog one; you can be an honest person, and if possible, give it a new temp home, shelter it, and always know that someday an owner could come back and want it. I just don't think I could get in the way of someone else who loves something; regardless of my profession. Maybe that's just because I paint/mod dolls out of passion, not as a career or income. I couldn't blame any artist that does sell a doll for this type of situation,so long as they did something similar to what I have mentioned at least.
       
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    19. I would have to say that if I were in a situation where someone had commissioned me to do a serivice and had not come to claim their items for six months or greater they have abandoned their property and I will do with it as I see fit.
      Though I would make sure and post something like this in bright bold letters somewhere obvious so that they would know in advance.
      We are customizers, Not a storage service.
       
    20. Probably if I were ever to take a commission, I would get more then just their DOA contact information. And also provide that they give me an address and to pay up front first. That way I wouldn't be stuck with a head for months. If that were the case, I would try my best to contact them for the next 2 months but if nothing, I would ask the moderator for advice. But if it came down to it, I probably would.