Sense of Entitlement to Dolls?

It's not a slap in the face, and doesn't really have anything to do with anybody else. People have been in the hobby for different periods of time, and financial resources differ depending on the person. For instance, there's a difference between being a student that can only work a lower paying part time job or who has to save chore money/holiday money etc and an adult who has steadier full time employment. It also has nothing to do with entitlement if they have the means to get the doll -- or at least, people really are honestly entitled to decide how they want to spend their own money. Also, depending on what sculpts a person likes, they may have to shell out more cash to get them -- that's just the way it is -- it's an expensive hobby, even though there are more price options than there used to be. Also expensive is relative -- to some people expensive is anything over $300, to someone else it's over $500, and to other people it could mean $1000+ (just something to keep in mind).

I don't think it's a matter of how people view customization -- either a person has the right to decide to customize their own dolls or they don't, and there is no rational basis for saying that they don't. Even when customizing goes awry or someone didn't do enough research on materials, I still wouldn't consider it entitlement in the negative sense that the term is being used here. Even if I don't personally like the outcome, the choice is completely theirs as it should be. It's simply not up to anyone else, and I don't think it's wrong to make your own decisions about your own stuff, even if the outcome isn't the greatest. Also, everybody starts some where -- not everybody is going to be as skillful starting out, but people learn through doing and by making mistakes. I think rather than entitlement causing mods to fail it's more likely lack of experience, needing to do more research on materials, or somebody bravely taking a chance that just didn't work. But if nobody ever took chances, there wouldn't be some of the impressive mods that there are. In a hobby that encourages modification you have to take the bad with the good, because not everything is going to turn out.

 

oops, messed up posting--sorry!

 

I wonder, if you have a limited edition doll, are you then "entitled" to keep that limited edition doll a limited edition? I mean, and I have seen it happen several times: People buy a doll limited to a number of X and then the company re-releases that limited doll. People still have their dolls, but the dolls are no longer limited to X, but to Y, so in essence their dolls have changed. It is no longer the doll that was originally bought.

Personally I wouldn't mind if my limited edition dolls would become standard molds everyone could get. They'd become less special, but would still be special enough to keep. I'd love it if more people could get sculpt that I love. However, I do know people who would mind, because their dolls have become less special and are no longer the same as the doll they had originally bought.
Just like the question should some people feel they are entitled to certain dolls, there's the question should some people feel they are entitled to keep the limited status of their dolls? They did pay for it.

 

Perhaps, but I have had a person in this hobby who literally told me my dolls were crap and "Don't you wish you could be me?" when I complimented a rare doll she had and after she asked me what kind I had. Luckily for me, AIM has a block feature and I haven't had to deal with it since. It's easy to ignore the few who actually do lord dolls over people. Money can buy great dolls, but it can't buy class or manners.

Sense of entitlement in this hobby? Probably so, but I've only seen it personally once. Many, many people in this hobby understand what hard work is, and (I hope) most others can be happy when someone else gets their dream doll.

 

So, in other words people are ~entitled~ to do with their dolls anything they please?

I agree with you to an extent and applaud those who do customize their dolls, however... research, work and skill is required. Sometimes, this isn't considered and some people jump in prematurely and end up adding another damaged head to the pile of heads in a true customizer's "to do" pile.

I'm all for edgy customizations and think it's great. I also agree it's personal choice. However, some people feel "entitled" to keep their dolls original. Others will feel "entitled" to change them. And then some may feel "entitled" to leave them in bright sunlight and color the eyeliner with a sharpie - something that is a very well known "don't do".

I agree it is a personal choice. But, there is the choice to be respectful of the object or the choice to treat it as just another "thing". In other words, there is "entitlement" which I feel is a very human emotion and a necessary one to motivate people. But there is also "entitlement" with a "take it for granted" attitude. It's the second attitude that bothers me not because I dont' think people shouldn't do what they want to - quite the opposite - but because I think that if someone is going to buy a doll (demanded or not) that doll should be treated with some respect by doing research, etc. And, with all the past modifications and current customizers, research is entirely possible. This isn't ten years ago anymore and things are much different. Risks are sometimes necessary but sometimes people take unnecessary risks.

I think I ultimate agree with you, Taco, but I see an element of gray.

 

The problem is, no one is born a 'true customizer'. It takes practice. It requires trial and error -- and the errors are going to happen. Back in my art school days, a number of my professors insisted that we will learn considerably more from the mistakes we make than we will from our successes. There is always the chance for a 'happy accident' as well -- but more importantly, our mistakes teach us not only how to NOT do something, which is a valuable lesson in itself, but also present us with equally important learning opportunities: how to repair them, work with them, work around them, or if all else fails, to accept a project as a failed endeavor and move forward with whatever comes next.

I see what you're saying about biting off more than one can chew; the problem is, someone may genuinely not know what is too great a challenge before making the attempt. I don't think this necessarily reflects poorly on them, since even with a whole lot of research and even a good bit of practice, things can go wrong very easily. Are you familiar with the old saying, "no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy"? It is much the same.

 

Basically, yes. Just like people are "entitled" to flinch if they see a mod they think didn't turn out well. Saying their opinion out loud, however, is something else.

 

I agree with you. But, then it comes down to perspective. Is a BJD a doll or is a BJD art? And, if it is art, whose art is it?

And this is why customization will always be a delicate issue. It's not because people want to limit others. They simply perceive the dolls as dolls and not as art.

And I should reiterate that sometimes risks do need to be taken. But, sometimes people take unnecessary risks. I'm not a customizer, though, so I really can't say what those are.

 

So, in some societies where pets are considered "property" and animal rights is a foreign concept would you still feel that "people are entitled to anything they please with that property"? And if people are entitled to do anything they please with their doll, does that include lure children? Use the dolls as a form of pornography? Through dolls insult and discriminate against others? Make copies? These are, of course, hypothetical questions.

To use a doll for ~anything~ is pretty broad. For the most part, doll collectors do monitor themselves quite well. But, sometimes, I feel rules are needed and limitations need to be set to reign in those who may not have the ability to do that themselves. This is where the "gray area" comes in. Ultimately I agree that people should be free to do with their dolls as they please, but to a point.

And if anyone can do anything with any doll then why limit people with their opinons? If anyone can do anything why set the double standard of letting people have free reign on their dolls yet limit people's freedom of speech?

This debate is so much more fun than studying, lol. I don't mean to offend you. I'm using this debate as an excuse to avoid my homework.

 

Well, in the sense that people do have the right to do what ever they please with their own belongings.

This is different from somebody assuming a right that they don't have -- such as feeling LEs are unfair, because not everyone that wants one can get one -- despite the fact that owning a particular doll is not a given right. That's what this thread addresses really--the negative sense of entitlement that demands a 'right' that is not theirs to demand.

Yes, that can certainly happen -- especially when you have beginning customizers who don't know the ropes yet. Skill is something that is honed. A person can start out with perhaps a greater inclination to be good at something like customizing, but without practice they only get so far. Likewise some people starting out may have more of a struggle, but through hard work can become quite competent. However, with practice does come mistakes.

That is their choice then, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's the point of people being able to do whatever they want with their own dolls. It goes both ways whether or not you want to customize or keep a doll as original and pristine as possible. Neither is inherently right or wrong. It's all down to what the individual collector's personal interests are.

What equals respect differs from person to person. One person's idea of respecting their doll and showing love and appreciation towards it and the original artists can be to keep it in as perfect condition as possible. To someone else it maybe packing their doll around with them which incidentally exposes them to more sunlight and other possible dangers. Or through modding (even if the result is inexpert) the owner can feel more bonded to the doll. We don't live in each other's heads, so there is no way to completely be sure of another person's motivation. I would rather give the benefit of the doubt unless they really show otherwise.

To me, the issue is more clear, because I recognize that the only dolls I have control over (and should have control over) are my own. I know what I am and am not comfortable with in terms of their care and what my own skill level is at certain things. Therefore I can comfortably make decisions about my own dolls whether it's a matter of wiping a faceup and doing my own, what doll I should buy, or how I handle traveling with them as they do periodically go out and about. However, I can't speak or act for other people who may feel very differently than I do -- they are the ones best suited to make decisions about their dolls, so as far as I'm concerned they can have at it.

I love and respect my dolls, but a lot of the bonding and sentimental feelings I have towards them is due to the fact that I handle them and work on them -- things I don't do with dolls belonging to other people. I treat my dolls with what to me is respect, I handle other people's dolls with great care, but I don't get as sentimental about dolls I don't own. I appreciate them, but they are outside of my own sphere, and what might happen to them is simply not my business or anyone elses.

This is actually pretty simple -- they are both, but not in the way of say a painting or sculpture. They are created by artists, but they are made to be finished by their owners. The companies themselves encourage customization, so it's pretty clear that customization is ok. That doesn't mean that everybody that has bjds has to enjoy or participate in that part of the hobby. However, it does mean that people should be aware that it has been a major part of things since the beginning -- that's one of the reasons I find it out of place to get upset when people mod their dolls, even when it may not be an expertly done job. It's simply part of the hobby. People who want to keep their dolls original should be respected, but they're going to have to respect the fact that other owners are going to treat their dolls as customizable pieces since that is what they are. Bjds in large part are canvases for their owners.

 

It's easier just to make a second post than make one gargantuan one replying to both of yours -- Yes, this debate definitely beats cleaning my kitchen

Comparing animals to dolls rarely works. Animals are living, breathing creatures that require a certain amount of care to keep them healthy. They also experience physical pain -- when you start talking about living beings, the issue changes. You're moving beyond sentimentality and respect and into the possibility of a living thing suffering and possibly losing it's life due to neglect. Dolls can be replaced, though it can be very painful to have to do so. An animal can't, end of story.

Normal healthy people (which make up the majority here) see a difference between a doll and an animal or a child and act accordingly. People's rights extend to the point that they step on other people's or endanger them in some way. Luring a child would be doing something that's illegal. However, most things people do with their dolls are individual activities with little to no tangible effect on others (simple annoyance is not a good enough reason to stop someone from doing something with their doll). They are done with dolls they themselves own and whatever work they're doing can simply be avoided if it's not to someone's taste. Basically as long as people are obeying the rules of whatever forum they're posting on (since forums are private they can dictate what content is ok. This does not keep people from doing what they want however, it just means they might have to post certain things elsewhere), and they aren't doing anything illegal they really can do what they want.

 

Does it matter? What's the difference between running a BJD over with my car and running a painting over with my car?

What rules would you put in place? Some of the ideas you stated are already illegal (like animal and child abuse).

I'm confused. What limits are you talking about? DoA has rules about what you can/can't post, but those are there for legal reasons.

 

I'm with Taco here -- they're both, art and an artistic resource at once.

Creating art as art resources is actually what I do to pay the bills, in its simplest form. I make virtual 'character' texture skins and morphs for 3D models for sale. There's an example in my icon, actually, that's a detail of a finished image created with one of them. Creating it is an art, but so is whatever the end user does with it, and I don't think either is any more worthy an art than the other. Some people make some potently hideous things with them, often due to inexperience, or because they don't want to invest in good tools, and so on -- the issues involved are remarkably similar to those involved with dolls, with the principle difference being that, unfortunately, we have as yet to find a way to make an 'undo' button for reality. (It's on my cosmic wishlist, it really is!)

Do I cringe when I see something hideous done with them? I sure do. Is it my business to say anything about it? Absolutely not. Is it my place to restrict or even suggest restrictions about what is done with the set? Beyond basic legalities in the license agreement -- 'don't pirate this' which is roughly analogous to 'don't recast' -- no, I do not, and I'm saying that as the creator of the thing, not a bystander, which is really what we all are when it comes to the collections of others.

It really isn't a delicate issue. We can cringe internally all we want, but we can't make rules for others about their property unless it actively conflicts with our own rights in some manner. "No, you can't stab me in the eye with your doll," is obviously reasonable. "No, you can't stab your doll in the eye with a knife," may be reasonable to hope, or think, or grouse about to oneself, but it's not a rule we can make for someone else, as it isn't our property.

 

To take it some further: Beating someone to death with a doll? There are enough rules already set. Both killing someone and luring in children are illegal no matter what you use. People can make pornography with their dolls if they want to, but distributing pornographic material is bound to whatever laws apply in their respective countries with good reason. No matter what you own, you are not entitled to break the law with it. So you would be entitled to do whatever you please with your doll as long as it is not illegal, but that applies to most properties.

I don't see much harm when someone hacks up a doll and ruins it. It's a shame something like that happens to dolls all the time, but it's not a crime. I do see harm in openly insulting someone's mod work and telling someone what they can and can't do while owning their own property. In the least, it's bad manners, while scribbling with a scarpie on your doll is not bad manners. Merely a bad idea.

 

Wow, you guys are getting way heavy for me to follow. (not really, but a pitiful attempt at frivolity is sometimes a useful thing...)

The original question was do we think SOME people feel this sense of entitlement? Answer: Yes. I think SOME people feel this sense of entitlement. I recently dealt with someone who felt entitled to use MY money and other people's money for something other than what we sent it for; because her wants and needs were more important than ours. That's an extreme case, but I've seen others.

I had a whole lot of other stuff to say but I'll just shut the trap and add: Raven, JennyN, Taco and Surreality are all my heroes. I want to be them when I grow up (if I manage to do that before I die of old age).

 

This is an intense discussion, reminds me of those Saturday nights in college when over beer and pizza we discussed politics or philosophy and never came to an absolute answer. Entitlement means something a little different for me as I worked in a college environment where we frequently had students and their families assume and then behave in a manner that said financial aid, scholarships etc. and education were owed to them, to be served up like they wanted it. Very little is really owed to anyone, but one should be able to expect to be treated with respect.

I discovered BJD dolls a few years ago and when I get really excited about something I tend to research and study and spend alot of time looking and listening to anything about that subject. I don't become an expert but I build a foundation to work from. I love dolls, I especially love BJD dolls and enjoy talking about them with others who share the passion. Hence participating and listening in various on-line forums. I spend a great deal of time looking for the face that captures my attention, then the look for that doll that captures his/her personality. Thats the fun, changing eye color, hair color and styles, deciding the best way for this particular doll to look. That is my customization. I can't even imagine myself doing a face-up but admire someone who takes the plunge and whether I like the result or not....I appreciate the energy and motivation. Its not fear its skill that prevents me from doing it. Someone who makes drastic changes and it truly impacts the structure of the doll, that is kind of sad and I think what a waste. That shows very little respect for the artist or the doll. I am retired now so I have to pace my purchases and save up for a particular doll and there are some that I would love to have but their price is out of my range and always will be. Someone else will have to assist that particular artist in surviving by purchasing their art. My collection is personal, each of my dolls is personally selected and "customized" for me and/or by me, can anyone discount or dismiss them....they can try but I will judge them by that even if its subconsciously. Am I "entitled" to my ladies and gentlemen dolls? I've earned and saved for them, I've selected them specifically and they are close to my heart and give me joy. Are you entitled to your dolls, certainly, do I hope you care for them and respect them as a beautiful item, of course. Can you do whatever you want with them, none of my business unless its illegal or does some damage to me or my dolls. Can I say you are "entitled" to do whatever you want with your doll, its up to you to decide what to do with your doll(s). Just don't assume that anyone else will agree or even disagree with what you do. And common courtesy might even keep them quiet instead of offering you their opinion. Wow, this discussion even made me serious for a few minutes....doesn't happen alot anymore...life is a celebration!

 

If people want to jack up their dolls with shoddy mods, sharpies, inexperienced x-acto hacking, etc...that's fine with me. Maybe I'll see one of those dolls on the MP later and have a project

 

Woohoo! Now, THIS is debate. You can't have a true debate without voicing true opinions and being honest even if others may be offended.

That's the point. It's all perspective. What I see as a negative form of entitlement and what others see as a negative form of entitlement is different. And in debate certain views will offend. But just as it's someone's choice to express those views it's also someone's choice to take offense. This is DEBATE.

I'm not saying customizing is bad. I pay others to customize my dolls. But to do -anything- to a doll just because one can, well, that's can lead to destructive tendences. The argument makes customizers look likehacks which many aren't. Many are talented artists in their own right.

So, customizers, stop using that catch-all phrase to justify what you do. You do it because you love it - not because you can. You do it because customizing the doll is more important than having the doll. But, it's also important to realize the opposite is true as well and a response to that doesn't require one to be defensive. Customizers should be proud of their work.

But a true customizer is talented and takes on challenges. A hack destroys dolls leaving the messes for the customizers to clean up.

 

If people didn't like customizing they wouldn't do it. The reason people keep saying 'it's my doll, I can do anything I want with it' is because there are people in various threads who get huffy about modding dolls (among other things). The fact that the owner has a genuine interest in modding doesn't seem to enter into the equation. Besides, that statement that you object to is a simple fact not a matter of defensiveness -- what people do with that fact is up to them and varies, but it doesn't change the truth of the matter.

Secondly, do you think the people who you feel are real customizers started out being brilliant at it? Isn't it likely that they became better over time with practice? Besides if a person had no interest in modding what so ever, I doubt they'd try it to begin with 'hack' or not. In the cases of major modding mishaps the issue is more likely related to lack of experience and/or research rather than lack of interest.

You can decide what to you is a negative form of entitlement, but that doesn't mean that it really jives with what the term 'entitlement' actually means. To feel entitled is to feel one has the right to something -- when people don't have that right but claim it anyway, that's what gives the word a pejorative connotation. However, people really do have the right to decide if they want to mod their own dolls -- it's not made up, and it's not something that is infringing on anyone elses rights or personal safety.

For the record, I'm not offended. However, I do not understand your logic. This isn't really a matter of perspective -- it's actually very cut and dry. You can dislike poorly done mods all you want, but that doesn't mean they fall under the umbrella of entitlement. This is starting to remind me of all the times the word 'elitism' gets thrown around and completely misused -- I wonder if the term 'entitlement' is going to become the new 'elitism.'

 

i agree with Katyok just engrave this phrase on the 'gates of bjd heaven' and call it a day:

Everyone may be entitled to their own opinion about what you should be doing with your own doll, but you are also entitled to tell them where to get off. That's about as much entitlement as I think is necessary in this community.