Sense of Entitlement to Dolls?

I fail see how that is the case at all. The statement "people can do as they please to their own dolls" doesn't make customisers as a whole look like anything. It's not actually an argument, it's a fact. If someone did not pay for a doll and it is not in their home and their hands, they do not have the slightest bit of say in what is allowed to happen to it, which is what people are being "defensive" about-the fact that people are attempting to dictate to them what they are and are not entitled to do with the dolls in their possession. I also don't see how doing what one wants to a doll because one can (in terms of modding, not, say, putting it through a woodchipper or something) might lead to destructive tendencies. I have two dolls which I dyed, carved and otherwise modified-because I could, because I wanted to and because I am allowed to and I haven't yet found myself taking a hammer to my other dolls, slashing up paintings or burning down buildings.

As for the bit about some customisers being quite talented-well, yes, but how on earth do you think they became talented? I can guarantee that they did not awaken one day and find themselves suddenly endowed with wonderful faceupping or modification skills. Even the best had to start somewhere, and to deny anyone the right to experiment on their own dolls is to potentially deprive the community as a whole from someone who might turn out to be, given a bit of practice, the next really amazing customiser. Anyway, why does *any* customiser do what they do other than both because they love it and because they can? It isn't an either/or. It does not seem likely to me that someone is going to go "Yeah, I hate customising dolls, but I'm going to take a dremel/ paints and pencils/sandpaper to this doll anyway." People already do customise dolls because they enjoy doing so. I agree that customisers should be proud of their work, but it can be difficult for them to feel that way when there are people demeaning them and their hard work because it isn't good enough for their tastes, or is too gory/"weird"/"ugly" for the individual looking at the customised doll. I can't imagine someone who put, say, ten hours of work into their modified doll is going to be able to feel particularly good about the job they did if someone tells them it's horrible and they shouldn't have bothered simply because it didn't come out as well as they would have liked it to.

 

Yes I saw that whole episode as it unfolded - at points, it was so ridiculous and unbelievable I thought it was an Asian TV melodrama....

Anyway, I also want to say Raven, JennyN, Taco and Surreality are all my heroes. I want to be them when I grow up (if I manage to do that before I die of old age).

LOL LOL

Like many people who have been here for too long, my crew consist of many dolls- because Tinies and pretty faces are addictive - plus my dolls say they are entitled to own me as their slave.


I think Each Doll is entitled to have a good home and to look their best to their own desire and liking either modded, seriously modded or default or sharpied (if they must they must)

 

And there y'all go with that sense of entitlement regarding MY dolls. Do anything at any cost no matter who or what gets hurt. But again it comes down to perception as to what is too much and what may not be enough.

To a point, I agree. But to a point. If every human being possessed the same perspective about all objects, well... I think there is a limit. That limit is when destruction is seen as acceptible. No one needs to agree but I kind of see a doll like a tree. Should the tree be left in it's original form or should it be reshaped and changed by people? Well, there are two extremese and a whole lot of gray area in the middle.

And, for the record, I don't care what people do with their dolls but I love to see how people get heated up over objects "they can do anything they want with" when people decide to "say anything they want". Not so much fun when one gets called out on that double standard.

It's one thing to want a sense of entitlement for oneself but then the least one can do is to respect that others will want the same in a different way.

 

Sorry, but I have to say this is one weird thread topic! IMO it's so
obvious...but perhaps at the original point this thread was made it
wasn't as apparent? *shrugs*
There are people with the "entitled" mind-frame in all things (as was
mentioned before) sometimes it stems from their upbringing OR because
they feel slighted in their life. NOBODY DESERVES a doll (except my Mom!)
more than the next person, sadly this is the hobby of "whoever can afford it,
gets it" OR "whoever clicks fast enough.." Some people just need to complain.
I might be guilty of this too. It's hard when you really really want that LE and
you see ALL these people who already bought a ton of dolls, seriously like one
after the other etc, and there they are getting the doll you simply can't afford...
it sux, but that's the hobby and that's life in general. A lot of comments mention
things that just seem like people who have bad attitudes, maybe I'm missing
something?

IMO if you buy a doll it's yours to do whatever you want with it....even if it's a
highly sought after LE. Because it's a doll!!!!

I once yelled at a guy who was yanking on his puppy's leash because it was late
and he wanted to go home...the poor pup was crying in pain..I said "stop that!!"
(through the safety of my house window) he freaked out and his response was
"it's MY dog!!" THAT is NOT OK!! You CANNOT say this is my dog or my kid so
I'll mistreat it however I see fit. At least the jerk stopped and maybe he thought
twice about his actions, I hope. But everyone seems to forget that these are just
dolls. Yes it might pain you to see that someone altered a doll that happens to be
YOUR dream doll but there's nothing you can do about it.
Sorry for being a bit OT but I think the original post was lost ages ago.

Again I'll state that this hobby consists of the following: "those who can afford it"
& "whoever clicks fast enough" any sense of entitlement is merely someone's
attitude/opinion and can be ignored. I've seen and ignored it. This really seems
more suited to GD than debate. *shrugs*

 

I am very confused, so just who or what have I hurt when I pushed the "buy" button and later when the doll arrives at my front door?? Or when I send the head off to get a new face up? I thought (especially when I buy from US vendors) my purchases (however big or small) was stimulating the weak economy as my purchase was count toward the figures which contribute to the monthly Consumer Confident Report that the White House and the Financial institution like to quote during their monthly announcement. (FYI, living in the real world there are a lot of expense. Every month, after deducting the rent/mortgage, food, clothing, utilities, transportation expense (car payment/insurance/gas, public transportation etc), taxes (income, property, sales etc), saving for retirement and family expenses (such as kid education etc); most people have less than 5% of their entire net income to spend on hobby or luxury items. Thus I do not see the support for your statement of "Do anything at any cost" - I really do not think there is anyone in this hobby or any hobby that is doing anything at ANY cost - there is always a spending cap. A very few individuals have been irresponsible in their actions and get into trouble transaction but that is not the norm)

I also do not understand your usage of the term- "double standards". I have been around for a while, but I have not encountered people who own "non-default" dolls saying to people who own default dolls that "They cannot have default dolls" or it is wrong to own or like a "default" dolls. From my experience, there are as many people who love non-default dolls (who created many odd or many gorgeous beyond belief non-default dolls) as there are owners of beautiful default dolls. From both groups of people we all know that customization can affect the value of the said dolls and the market place always proven to be fair in that respect for all cases of non-default dolls. The true "judgment" shows itself in the the form of cash in the marketplace or ebay or YJ.

If you are referring that when "too much mods" is too much or destructive; then again, that really depend on the person who is looking at the modded items. "Jail breaking" your mobile phone voids your factory warranty entirely; but many people do it. And some people will pay to have their phones modded. Some individual takes their new phone completely apart for the purpose of posting pictures online. The only thing they hurt is their own wallet. Although the phone has lost its function completely, it hardly can be considered "hurtful to others" nor it is even view as being "destructive".

BTW, do you know that many of the plants and vegetables that we grow on this planet are genetically altered?? Many fruits and vegetables are grown in ways altered from their "original state of growth" to yield good crops to sell in the super market. Wild (unattended) cucumbers do not grow straight, they grow in a curvy shape. The cucumbers that we get in the supermarket or restaurants are cultivated in clear plastic tube to achieve that straight look you are familiar with. Should we all boycott cucumbers now?? Most if not all plants (either domestic or growing in the wild) have been altered greatly directly by the ecological changes which the human race has created due to our needs and technological advances - these changes are taking places even without human physically go there to reshape and change the branches, vines, roots etc.

I do not share your view of a doll like a tree or like a child or like a pet etc. For me, any living creatures however big or small, domestic or wild are not objects and cannot be used as a relative comparison. If you must consider an analogy, I think the mobile phone I mentioned before is more or less at the same level as commercial Asian BJD dolls- Both are man made objects (both are of recent human creations) which owners or potential buyers pay more attention to the "Social Status" aspects of this possession rather than the physical functions the phone when they make their purchase choices. Many people also decorate (mod) to personalize their phones.

 

I think we have a misunderstanding. You keep comparing BJDs to living objects (like trees and people), while most people have stated that BJDs are simply objects. Beautiful, personalized objects, but still objects. There is a huuuuuuge difference between carving up a BJD and carving up a child.

People are getting "heated up" because they're being told what they can and can't do with their property. If I came over to your house and said "you can't jump on the bed" or "you can't toss your phone on the couch", wouldn't you be upset? Because it's your house and your stuff, right? Same idea.

 

Wait, how is this affecting YOUR dolls in any way? I don't see anyone telling you there is something you can't, or conversely must, do with your dolls.

Actually, I see a lot of people describing limits involving the laws where they live that they accept. "Do whatever mods you want" is not the same thing in any way. "I want to sand her nose down" is not the same thing as "use doll parts to murder a small child while a kitten and your grandmother look on."

Certainly. Because if someone finds the above equivalent, they've lost enough perspective that their grip on reality isn't one I'm going to trust for a nanosecond, and I'm going to weigh their views accordingly.

This is really better suited to the thread about mods, not the thread about entitlement, to be completely honest. "Where is the line" regarding creation and destruction in art isn't an entitlement issue, but it IS one that has been thrown around with much disagreement, and has a lot of steam on its own. I suspect if you started a thread on that specific subject, you might get more answers that discuss 'finding the line', because that can be more about specific judgment calls on whether something was a good idea or not, rather than "does someone have the right to do the mod". Well, yes, we do have the right to do the mod -- but I think what you're trying to get at is something more like "was it right to do that mod" if I'm reading this properly.

Really? Because there's an art form dedicated to precisely that; ever heard of a bonsai tree? http://www.nachomarin.com/ has a number of examples (work safe site, though it isn't in English).

I'm with Ostrich here; I don't see dolls as equivalent to living beings of any kind. For someone who does believe that their particular doll has a soul or has life, that's their doll and that idea would likely shape their opinion about what they do with their doll, but should not infringe on what I do with my beautiful, inanimate objects.

 

What? That doesn't make any sense. When has anybody told you what you should be doing with your dolls? You have the right to do whatever you want with your dolls -- if that means keeping them in their default state, then that's fine. Nobody's telling you otherwise. I'm also not seeing where people are getting hurt. Huh?

You're making this into a bigger issue than it is. I could go into detail about how I relate to and what I consider my dolls to be, but that would drag this greatly off topic. It also would not change the fact that not everybody feels the same way about dolls -- all the more reason for them to make their own decisions.

What is this double standard of which you speak? Seriously, I'm not seeing a double standard anywhere. "I can do what I want with my dolls" applies to you as well. Your dolls your choice. The only person suggesting otherwise is you yourself. I don't see this is as a super heated debate -- people just don't agree with you, because your view is becoming less and less logical.

 

I have felt the sting of people with a "sense of entitlement" as well. I don't know if I can quite add to the discussion or if I'm just repeating. But I have experienced people being quite spiteful about people owning not even the same doll but the same one from a series. Such as someone owning one of the Cheshires from the Alice in Wonderland..NOT THE SAME ONE...just one from each or owning one of the Lishe and a Soo from the new Fairyland Chic Line. They will say how that even though they are both fullsets how one doll is soooo much more better! Even though they start from the same place. It kinda bugs me! If one person spams their Lishe the other person spams their Soo...and it gets annoying

The other thing that kinda annoys me is the idea that people have rights to certain molds. IE. If you own a Delf Shiwoo and three other people end up buying a Shiwoo. You going around and telling these people that you're Shiwoo will never be as awesome as yours! I really HATE that. It kinda pisses me off. No one really has a monopoly on sculpts or dolls! Alot of people want their dolls to be the best. But I think its subjective. I've found some people who do amazing things with their dolls. And makes me look at my dolls and wish I could do more with them. But I have limited funds and life keeps happening. So I just look at them with determination to get awesome clothes and accessories and hone my photography skills more. But it does make me a lil irky!

 

People who have a sense of entitlement about dolls definitely have a sense of entitlement about life in general. I can't see that as being a trait that only comes out for one hobby. No one should have a sense of entitlement about anything, IMO. We're all humans, and even though we're all different, we're all very much the same.

 

Wait, where are you seeing a sense of entitlement regarding YOUR dolls? Nowhere do I see anyone saying that they have more of a right to your dolls than you do, or that they have the right to tell you what to do/not to do with your dolls. YOU are the only one here who's telling people what they can do with their dolls. No-one here is talking about bludgeoning old ladies or robbing banks with dolls, so "do anything at any cost no matter who or what gets hurt" is just a touch melodramatic, don't you think? Who exactly is being hurt when Jane Doe in country X decides she wants to sand her doll's face off? You? Me? All the puppies and flowers and fluffy little kittens? I think not. We're not saying "Hey, if you want you can go bash a random passer-by's face in with your doll because it's yours", we're saying "You can turn your doll into a six-armed rainbow-coloured alien mermaid if you want because it's yours".

A doll is not a tree. It is not a child, or a plant or a fuzzy little duckling. Dolls are not naturally occurring objects, they are ITEMS which are made for customisation. Whether any given person likes it or not, that is what they were originally designed for. There is no grey area in that, it's very clear-they are meant to be customised or not as any given owner sees fit.

There is no double standard. There is not a single person here saying that they're allowed to do what they want to their dolls, but no-one else is allowed to do the same. "I can do what I want" is not a double standard to "You can't tell me what I can and cannot do".

Uh...a sense of entitlement is generally a bad thing to have, at least in the sense it was originally being used here. The idea attached to the term here is someone feeling that they have the right to something (i.e., a certain doll) just because they want it. Nowhere here is anyone claiming that they have the right to anything other than to determine what happens to THEIR OWN dolls.

 

Actually, not to nitpick, but that is an entitlement: to be free to do what one wishes with their property. A sense of entitlement is actually not inherently bad; in and of itself, it's fairly neutral. It doesn't actually mean "just because you want it" at all -- that's the negative behavior associated with people claiming they are entitled to something that they are not.

An entitlement is a granted right. There are perfectly reasonable -- and positive -- rights that people have, and the right to personal property* is one of them. We are entitled to do what we want with our personal property within the bounds of the law, until it comes into conflict with someone else's rights. That isn't something I, personally, would call a bad thing under most circumstances. (Again, there are plenty of absurd hypothetical extremes, but they're the exception, not the rule.)

Are we allowed to do so without criticism of any kind? Nope. That interferes with the rights of someone else to speak or have an opinion about what they experience or observe.

Are we entitled to express that criticism? Yep! ...provided it is permissible, and presented in a permissible form, in the place where we are doing it. For instance, criticism of a mod or design or project would be forbidden here outside a critique thread, per the rules of the board. The rules of the board grant a poster, ideally, the right to not have someone tear into the poster's photos with critique in places on the forum where it is not invited.

None of this is "the rules surreality just made up" -- it's the rules of the board, and the rules of the society in which I live as directly applied to the matter of dolls, mods, and entitlement.

The negative forms of an entitlement mentality -- claiming rights one does not, or arguably should not, have -- is a different animal. It's the other side of the coin. It's where you find the double standards. "I'm allowed to buy whatever doll I want, but once I buy it, no one else is allowed to because I say so!" for example, or the ever popular, "I want it, and so you have to give it to me/give me a lower price/give it to me instead of that other person/make it easier for me to get and harder for that other person/etc."

* In most societies, this is a common right. It isn't universal. It can also be revoked, or suspended by law, but that's really not the point, eh?

 

Right, sorry. I need to fix that to explain a little better. I knew there was something I forgot in that post. *Goes to edit*

 

This debate seems to have diverged from "entitlement to dolls" to "entitlement issues surrounding dolls".

Just the same, here are my two cents:

You are entitled to buy whatever doll you want, and however many you want, with your own money. Whether you want a slew of Volks Shinkus or a baker's dozen of Bermanns, if you have the money and time to find them, then all the power to you. This hobby is well established as being first-come-first-served.

You are not entitled to have any/every doll you want available to you when you want and for the price you think is 'reasonable'. Your wants neither supersede the laws of the market nor the preferred policies and practices of the manufacturers. This is life. Deal with it.

You are entitled to do whatever you want with your dolls, unless whatever you want ends up causing physical harm to another living creature and/or breaks the law. You are entitled to use drill bits, sharpies and excessive glitter on your doll/property if you choose. You are entitled to run your dolls over with your car if you want to. Yes, even your really expensive, ultra rare ones.

I am NOT entitled to stipulate what is right and wrong in regards to the treatment of your own inanimate property. I am entitled to have my own opinion and think what you do is horrible, but I do not have the right to try and exert my wills and opinions over you and attempt to impede upon your personal freedoms. By all means, drill speed holes in your Woosoo's body. I'd think it's a waste, but whatever floats your boat, buddy.

In the spirit of free speech, I am entitled to voice my opinions on things you do with your doll that I don't like. In the spirit of manners, I will only do so when asked for an honest opinion. In regards to individuals who exercise their right to free speech without tact or decency, guess what - you'll come across a lot of them in life. Life can't be censored to suit delicate sensibilities, so make use of the mods in reporting unacceptable behavior and/or develop a thicker skin. Remember: your doll, your rules, and to heck with the rest of them. It really is that simple.

 

"This is starting to remind me of all the times the word 'elitism' gets thrown around and completely misused -- I wonder if the term 'entitlement' is going to become the new 'elitism.'"

Aaahhh, dear Taco, you misty-eyed romantic! I'd say we are well beyond the point of no return on that one!

 

I'm just going to directly reply to the original post because I feel like in this thread there is a lot of confusion with the topic of dolls and a 'sense of entitlement' and how it related to the world of dolls.

1) I'm sure they do. I, however, do not. I'm not "entitled" to anything in life, including dolls. Additionally, it's not for me to say what other people are entitled to since I do not live their experiences, know their life or how it applies to their attitude towards their hobbies. The only thing I have noticed about the doll community is this wacky competitive collecting- i.e. the joy people seem to get from their dolls is overshadowed by the "having" of the dolls or the latest new "thing". I say "thing" because people have this attitude towards many things, motorcycles, cars, TVs, cell phones, video games. In my own personal experience it's kind of a 'hollow' win (so to speak) when you are acquiring things in such a fashion.

2) You can't measure your feelings versus someone else's feelings. I don't believe in "right" and "wrong" when it comes to emotion but I do think it's sort of a waste of energy. There are inevitable things (including disappointments) in life that we all face and it seems like energy would be better spent in some other fashion then trying to measure your worthiness (doll ownership or not involved) versus someone else. The fact is you can never know someone else's life experience so to try and analyze it is really an unproductive mind bender!

Hopefully I understood the question correctly because it seems like what is really being asked is: "Is it okay I feel this way: (insert emotion here) and do you feel this way too sometimes? Why and how do you deal with it?" it seems like there might be some emotional processing going on and it's totally cool DoA is here for you to talk about it.

Just for the record, your emotions are always okay and natural. It literally took me FOREVER to believe that. It's okay to be jealous or upset when someone is able to afford what you cannot or they get lucky and by some means acquire what you cannot. It can be really upsetting! I know I have totally felt that time and again. After feeling frustrated for a bit I generally find something new to focus on and then... more often than not an opportunity to acquire said item will show up in the future even though sometimes that seems like quite a ways away. it's easier on you to focus on something you can accomplish in the moment and feel good about that achievement than it is to stew over feelings of '(non?)entitlement'. The better I felt then then more solutions presented themselves to me and before I knew it, I was reaching my goal of the item I wanted under the conditions I desired it.

I hope all the responses help you sort things out internally. I know it can be tough- there are a lot of beautiful dolls, cars, TVs, vacations, etc out there to want and I think humans always want. "Wanting" is a natural way of moving through life and opening the next door into something wonderful. Good luck! ^^

 

AmyJ, that was beautifully stated. Emotions are neither right nor wrong, they merely are.

I have to admit that a few posts in here have really punched my "worry buttons" -- hoping I've never inadvertently flaunted my overabundance of resin. Sure don't mean to make anyone feel bad, but I can absolutely understand how they might, remembering back to the days when getting a $5 plushy dragon was a HUGE treat because there was no money.

Reading your post made me return to that "omg I'm sorry if I made anyone feel bad" moment and think: the description of being "slapped in the face" was just a description of an emotion - and an understandable one at that. Likewise my kneejerk wince because maybe it was directed at meeeeee..... (you can see how this is a monstrous cycle to start...)

I don't think that "elitism" and "entitlement" are being used interchangeably. In the posts and threads I've read, the "elitism" charge is used for those "X type of doll is better than Y type of doll" events and "entitlement" is more "I ought to be able to get one because they exist and YOU have one" events. At least I hope these terms aren't being -- or about to be -- used interchangeably. They do not mean the same thing at all, in the English language.

Another sub-message I see running through this discussion is the same one taking place in the "state of the market" debate thread. I hope that I don't offend anyone -- but "USED" means "USED." I saw up above here someone getting testy and expressing it as "you're saying used is used." Well, yes. It is. That is what the word means. Unless the language has been magically altered, I can't envision any situation in which "used" means, say, "new." Now, *subjective value* is another issue entirely, and as we have all flogged to death and back, it can vary depending on the economy, trends in doll sculpts, rarity, personal preferences, and a whole bunch of factors. Some sculpts will likely always command big bucks. Lots won't. But a doll that has been owned previously is still a USED doll, and (here's MY sense of entitlement) -- I'm entitled to refuse to pay full price for it.

Just means it'll go to someone else . That's all.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I can't think of a time that you've ever flaunted anything. I can understand not having the resources at ones disposal can be very frustrating -- I had far more resources and did most of my doll buying during the first few years I was in the hobby when I was more financially stable. Over the past almost two years, the money has not been so easy to come by and I've had to cut back on doll spending a lot (thank the gods for tax returns is all I can say). However, in an expensive hobby that involves collecting as well as sharing -- doll forums being largely about sharing pics and projects with one's dolls -- hobbyists are going to come into contact with folks who's financial situations are different from their own. It's ok to be frustrated, but it's also important to not take that frustration out on fellow hobbyists who have greater resources at their disposal and/or who have been in the hobby longer allowing them over time to end up with more dolls. People should hopefully realize that it's really not a slap in the face or the sign of a stuck up entitled fool to have larger doll families.

They aren't being used interchangeably, but as this thread has progressed I'm seeing 'entitlement' being misused in the way that 'elitism' is misused. There is a very real basis for this thread, however, some of the things people have been calling entitlement really aren't, just as people sling elitism around in other threads when that's not what's happening. It's ok not to like something--I agree that we can't always help the way we feel. However, that doesn't mean that that the person in question has actually done something wrong or is behaving in a way that is entitled (in the negative sense of the word that is). Entitlement and elitism seem to be hurled at people so that the offended party can make a claim that what the so called 'entitled' person or 'elitist' is doing is somehow wrong in a larger moral sense rather than being a simple matter of different tastes or at worst perhaps a misunderstanding. That is not to say that there aren't people who behave in an elitist fashion or behave in way that really does smack of entitlement, but elitism has really become an over used word, and this thread is making me think that 'entitlement' is going to end up the same way.

 

It does, thanks.

Yep, and I absolutely agree. I have to confess that my point was a poorly-disguised vent at people (not just here on this site but everywhere) who either refuse to use the language properly or can't seem to figure out how to determine the meaning of a word. (A dictionary is our friend!) It's... something I had drummed into my head for soooo many years. I guess what I *should* have said was "Please please please let's not continue to do that!" or something to that effect.

 

I think entitlement as a word has been used a lot outside of DoA, too, with varying degrees of accuracy . I think it's replaced "rights" with some people as something they talk about without necessarily understanding . . . (I worked in a health and safety agency when no-smoking regulations changed a few years back, and I can't tell you how many people used words like "smoker's rights" - uh, there's nothing in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms about cigarettes, folks.)

There are people who do seem to take it personally that there are LEs they can't get, or contests they can't enter or win, or that some people have more money than they do/are willing to spend more to get what they want. I personally never get angry because someone else got an LE or One-Off that I wanted. With One-Offs, you often get to see the delighted look on the winner's face, and that is always so nice to see that it softens the blow . Here on DoA, you can vicariously share in the owner's joy. The fact that there are hard to get items and sculpts means that one day I might be the lucky one! I have felt anger when scalpers get hold of those dolls, though, and that's not just because they got in the way of me getting what I wanted at the price I was willing to pay - they did it to a bunch of other collectors, too -_-;.

It is an awkward thing, though - places like DoA are designed for you to show off what you have, but you might be misunderstood as trying to make other people feel bad. I think there's nothing wrong with being proud of your collection, yet I wouldn't want to make others feel like I'm lording it over them. O_o