Sense of Entitlement to Dolls?

used to.
i used to be like : ''yeah, i have this gorgeous limited doll from 05. its pretty expensive, rare, and SO beautiful ''
but not anymore. now i just enjoy my doll, dont care about the price.
i guess i changed due to the lack of compliments i got cuz its my non-limited, not so expensive, but definatly cute thats the most popular in my collection :3
so the ''title'' doesnt mean anything to me anymore.
i've seen some really ugly limited OR badly painted/dressed. when a doll look too bad (or too good) WHO CARES HOW MUCH IT COST?!

 

Yes, it is disappointing that Japan has such policies, but at this point you're not even comparing apples to oranges - you're trying to compare apples to bacon.

Animals are living creatures. It makes sense that when a country condones non-humane practices in dealing with living creatures, people would be disappointed in and even angry with that country.

However, dolls are not living creatures. Dolls can not be mistreated. Dolls can not be handled in a non-ethical, cruel, or inhumane manner. They are inanimate objects. These facts alone make your comparisons to animal rights pointless. Even when an animal has no rights under law, to maliciously harm them is unethical. Dolls have no rights, but to maliciously harm them is not unethical because they are not capable of suffering and feeling pain. Dolls don't even have a pulse.

I think what you're trying to do is to focus on the following: 1) What people witnessing unpleasant actions are feeling, and 2) Whether the individuals causing these negative emotions should care enough about negative perception to alter their behavior.

Should Japan care about the negative perception they get due to their unethical treatment of animals and change their policies? I believe they should.

Should I care about the negative perception customizing gets when I make a zombie mod out of paper mache and puffy paint? NO.

Negative perception due to a global ethical issue =/= Negative perception due to personal aesthetic preference within an extremely personalized hobby

Please define what you mean by "destructive behavior". Individuals that judge the entire world of customization after seeing only the negative are making uneducated judgments. Why care or worry about the opinions of people that are so quick to judge and/or lack the impetus to do the research? Am I to somehow be responsible for their actions?

Why is it again that I should care if other people are disappointed by what I choose to do to a doll that is mine and not theirs? So what, I drill holes in my ultra rare doll's forehead. If you allow my horrible failure to taint your entire view of customizing, I can't be held at fault for your choice. Start looking for the good customizers instead of being disillusioned and disappointed when I next decide to try my luck making stitches with staples and a hammer. I get the impression you're saying that we have a responsibility to pander to the wants of others instead of using this fun hobby to pursue our own interests.

I won't be surprised. If they choose to close their minds to the great customizations and customizers of the hobby, it's their choice and their loss.

Do you have any proof? I'm willing to bet money that, despite all the horrible mods out there, the truly talented customizers won't have suffered a lack of commissions.

Why does it have to be about art? Why can't it be "just because I can"? Also, why would I be smug and morally superior for acknowledging and voicing my rights? I'm floored why you think it's wrong for someone to pursue something "because they can". Could you explain why you think that is wrong?

It seems as though you're implying that, unless you are at a certain talent level and have a certain aesthetic taste, to mod your own doll would be a selfish and harmful endeavor. Exactly what kind of obligations do I have to other people when it comes to my own enjoyment of my doll?

You say it isn't wrong and yet you make it sound like a sin. Again, why is it self-righteous for people to voice, exercise, and defend their rights?

The harsh reality is that we have no responsibility to each other in this community outside of treating each other with respect. We have no responsibility to this community other than to enjoy its resources and follow its rules. We have no responsibility to this hobby other than to enjoy it. We are neither accountable to nor responsible for each other for anything beyond that, nor should we be.

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I await your parry, elphsnt!

 

I really can't help but to butt in to the art debate going on. I can't draw a face or a body to save my life. Whether that's because I lack "normal" hand eye coordination (had some physiotherapy as a child) or because I just haven't found the right way to learn it I don't know. However, the fact that I can't draw the structure (ie face) doesn't mean that I can't do the colouring part. If somebody asked me to draw a fashion sketch the thing that would hinder me would be drawing the body. Once I had the body I could draw and colour the clothes and it would actually look quite good.
I personally feel that resin levels the plain-field slightly (at least when it comes to faceups) someone with a keen sense of colour and style can make a beautiful faceup, without necessarily being able to make objects drawn on paper look 3D. Faceups I feel makes it possible for me to utilise skills that aren't necessarily fine art specific: patience, attention to detail etc.

Now back to the debate at hand.
I really feel that this entitlement issue is a social plague rather than a doll specific phenomena. However I have to admit I've never seen it in adults before visiting DOA.
Just look at a show like Idol, kids walk off the street and get propelled in to megastardom in a matter of weeks. I don't know the musical background of those that actually win but it might seem to many young people that you don't need any training or effort to become a musical star. This attitude seems to seep in to dolls aswell. So really I don't see the question as being what the doll hobby does to draw this behaviour out but what society (and parents) should do to teach the next generation that hard work actually can pay off.

 

I agree to a certain extent to the "financial hardship" bit, it would be nice if there were chances for people with less money who have great interest to have the opportunity to own a doll. (Doll scholarships, anyone?) But maybe this isn't the same idea as "entitlement."

As far as being entitled because someone loves the doll so much...this seems like a strange idea to me. OK, you really want the doll...but so do all the other people? I don't think many people buy a super expensive limited edition doll thinking, "eh, whatever, why not." So, wouldn't everyone who likes the doll feel "entitled"? But you don't deserve something just because you want it!

 

Ding ding. And this is the point I was trying to illustrate by having individuals reach it themselves with a little introspection rather than having to be bluntly told the obvious.

This "me, me, me" attitude is a social issue that is far broader than dolls and is a flaw in individual characters. The argument "I can do anything because it's mine" shows selfishness, greed and arrogance. Although it may be societally acceptable or within the laws or even encouraged within a certain sphere, it shows a serious lack of a social conscience. It's notsomuch with dolls that it bothers me. It's that it can be taken outside of the doll world and applied to other things and not everyone posting or reading comments is as mature as others. I don't like that argument at all or what it may imply.

With anything comes responsibility, hard work and dedication. Sure, dolls are things and they don't require hard work or dedication unless there is art involved. However, with a home, there is neighbours to consider. With dolls, there is a community to consider. Anyone posting on a blog, forum or sharing images does place themselves in that community and there is a certain amount of responsibility that goes along with that even if it's a very small amount.

I'm not saying people can't do what they want. I'm also not saying I care what people do. What I'm saying is that individuals should care about not only what they do, but how they do it and how they may be affecting others in the community to a small degree. I want to see individual expression. I don't want to see complete contempt for other people, however, or for the community at large.

When someone does destructive mods that ruin dolls it does affect how people unfamiliar with good mods perceive customizers, for example. And not all customizers are destructive and deserve far more respect than they receive, in my opinion. Customizing - face-ups, piercings, tattoos, etc. - that is very difficult and it takes a lot of talent to do it well.

In another instance, handmade clothing items. If a person takes a chance on a new clothing artist and the item is flawed, it may affect how one perceives the community of clothing artists. Just the other day I ordered from someone who stated "all items are handmade and cannot be returned due to flaws or imperfections" (or something along those lines). If all clothing artists did this to excuse themselves from producing less than excellent items it would be a very sad day, in my opinion, because they are excusing themselves from taking responsibility for their creations.

Yet another instance, glass eyes. Glass eyes can be tricky and sometimes they can be flawed. If one company sets the expectation (and others follow suit) that no returns will be accepted because they are "handmade" and may "mismatch" is this acceptable? I don't think so. But, if one uses the argument "they are their eyes and they can do anything they want", well, then it sets the expectation that there is no recourse no matter how much one may pay.

There is responsibility in a community - any community. There is a responsibility to be honest about selling items. There is a responsibility to be honest when buying items. There is a responsibility when selling services. Those who don't accept the very small responsibility that comes with BJDs are the ones I hope don't "inspire" future buyers, customizers, clothing artists and companies that make BJD-related items.

And that is why I got so entangled with this debate. I cannot tolerate the argument "I can do anything because it's mine", because the argument is so wrong on so many levels.

 

Here's the thing, though: what you're describing isn't the obligations or rights of a doll owner. You're describing the need for public standards of behavior -- which is actually a very different animal. That's not obligations or rights surrounding doll ownership, it's rights and obligations involved in interacting with the doll collecting community. There is an enormous difference here. Based on what you're describing, one can simply have an interest in BJDs and participate in the community without ever owning a doll, and their behaviors come under this umbrella; conversely, someone who owns a doll as a wholly private entertainment and never shares photos or discusses it with others does not.

Basically, you're not arguing against "I can do anything because it's mine", you are instead arguing that, "I can't just do anything because it's mine and make that known to the public in some way without there being the potential for repercussions." Not the same at all.

It's time to look at this from the opposite perspective. What is more selfish: me saying I can do whatever I want with my doll, or you saying you have the right to dictate what I can or cannot do with my doll*? Because personally, I find the latter not only selfish but arrogant beyond all possible measure.

Which is more wrong:

"I can do what I want with my doll because it is my property."
"You have to do what I want with your doll regardless of the fact that it is your property."

I would argue the latter is wrong by an enormous margin. That is the 'community based' and shockingly inappropriate entitlement attitude people are arguing against here to which the "it is mine and I can do what I like with it" is a wholly legitimate defense.

* Barring the obvious ridiculous extremes like luring a child in to abuse the child and similar illegal craziness that has been used as examples in this thread.

 

People can exhibit behaviors that are selfish and greedy -- there are plenty of examples of that in society. However, that is not what this thread is about. This thread is specific to the doll community. Being flaky on market place transactions, scamming people, being intentionally rude are all behaviors in this community that would be considered inappropriate and just plain bad behavior. Doing what one wants with their own dolls isn't an issue -- it's not a good example of social conscience or the lack there of. You're trying to make it fit your arguments against larger societal issues, when what people do with their dolls does not fit or work as such an example.

Sometimes saying 'I can do what I want' is selfish, but sometimes it's not. It depends on the situation. In the situation we have on this board it's not.

That responsibility to the community would be not flaking out on transactions, not scamming people, not being intentionally nasty, appropriately labeling stories and following forum guidelines. When all that has been taken into account, what a person does with their doll has nothing to do with it. This isn't really a hobby that comes with lots of responsibility unless you're participating in market place transactions.

I'm about to say something that you seriously need to stop and think really really hard about. You say people can do what they want and you don't care, but that is not what you've been arguing. You've been saying over and over again that when people feel like they can do what ever they want with their doll they are being selfish, greedy and entitled -- you've been making a negative value judgment that certainly implies that people should not do what ever they want with their dolls.

When you sit and get on a moral high horse about what people can and can't do with their own property that they obtained legally, that is not breaking any laws you are the one behaving in a selfish manner. You are putting yourself where you don't belong, passing judgment on something that is quite literally none of your business, and making ridiculous accusations as to the 'greedy, selfish, entitled' motives of your fellow hobbyists. This is not an attitude that is remotely community friendly.

And where is your proof of this? Look around at all the people who mod, or commission artists here on DoA. No where has there been a general outcry against modding. This hobby is built around customization, and owners are encouraged to try things -- it's part of the 'making your doll your own' business. If people can't handle that, then they're in the wrong hobby.

Wrong again. It means that you do research before you buy -- ask how the item is constructed, ask for better pictures if you can't get a good feel for the quality, check feedback threads etc. People have different expectations, wants, and needs when they're buying things -- it's not black and white anyway. If the seller was upfront about their return policy, then you have no need to complain. If it bothers you, buy some place else. It really is that simple.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Geez. And to be honest, when you do have handmade goods, there is a greater chance of imperfections -- you see the hand of the artist, as they weren't make by a machine. The industrial revolution brought about mass produced goods of generally uniform quality. However, being uniform doesn't always make something excellent quality either -- infact, mass produced goods are often lacking in that department. We're in a hobby where having hand made or small run items is considered a good thing. Now this said, if a product is too often/too badly flawed, then that will turn people off from buying it, and they will shop somewhere else. In order to be really competitive, makers of things like eyes, clothes, dolls, accessories, have to be able to deliver a product that does reach a certain quality level, that people find attractive, that they feel comfortable in buying. So no, companies who are serious about what they're producing aren't going to start suddenly letting things slide just because they can. However, buyers do need to understand how the things they buy are made, so they know what to expect. Being an educated buyer saves a lot of headaches. They also need to read about what they're buying so they are aware of possible issues and return policies -- the fact that sellers are being upfront about these things, is actually a positive and says that they're being honest. People aren't being forced to buy from them, remember.

Of course! Here I agree with you (and most other people would too). But you know what? It has zero, zilch, zip, nothing, to do with saying 'it's my doll and I can do whatever I want.' This is a whole different tangent you went of into that is also a totally different animal, because being an honest seller/buyer actually does have a very real and tangible effect on other community members. However, being dishonest with marketplace transactions is also illegal, as theft and misrepresentation of goods is illegal, and the difference between actual legal and illegal actions has been brought up many times already. Nobody here has claimed that participating in illegal activities was ok.

You got so entangled with the debate, because you're not differentiating between things that involve illegality or at the very least real ethical issues such as dishonest marketplace transactions and those things that are outside the realm of the community such as owners determining what they want to do with their own dolls. Those are very very different issues, and you can't treat them the same way. Honestly, the last half of your post had nothing to do with people saying "it's my doll, I can do what I want with it" and focused instead on marketplace transactions -- the two are not actually related. What I do with my dolls has nothing to do with anybody else, but what I do in the marketplace does big time. Surely you can see the difference?

You've also been using examples that don't seem to be backed up by anything other than your own speculation as to how people feel about things like modding. There is no evidence to suggest that your assumptions are actually correct.

 

Wishing does not make it so, so the saying goes.

People who think they can dictate what someone else does with their LE are fooling themselves. I understand that there are a lot of people who wanted that LE, and didn't get it, but living vicariously through someone - someone you don't even know personally, may I add - all because they own the LE you wanted is not the right way to go.

The only thing LE owners need to be wary of in the BJD community - or even just this forum - is to follow forum rules and generally be courteous. No place does it say that LE's belong to the community regardless of the fact that someone owns it. They're LE owners, not LE guardians.

In terms of the general sense of entitlement, I'm currently reading an interesting book called "Generation Me". It's all about people born between 1970 and today, and how the rules for society has changed since then. People are becoming a lot more lax about things than we used to be before that. I wonder if this also includes how we see property, like these dolls? Maybe some people feel that they are owed their doll in some form, which is why people feel that they can tell others on how to treat their LE's, or why people are buying recasts?

 

Coveting is perhaps envy. As one of the ten commandments - perhaps this was wise advice. But I think one has to bear in mind that old adage...

I cried because I had no shoes until I saw a man who had no feet.

One thing I do resent is somebody who has a sense of entitlement just "because". It crosses all aspects of life. Sometimes these people don't reason beyond anything else. They forget perhaps you have what ever it is they want becaue you might have worked for it, and earned it. Of course life isn't always fair and it has never stopped being unfair. I am born in a land where opportunity is really up to me. Some people are born in a land where there is no opportunity. A place of eternal war, or eternal poverty. And some people are born with a terrible handicap and you wonder, there but... could I go too.

Today they found the body of a fifteen year old boy competing in a surfing championship. That isn't fair. Some 80 year olds who have been stingy or selfish all their lives just don't die before they've had at least an opportunity... why why why?

When I see a doll I love I have to say to myself... I can't have it even though I would love to have it. And then I think, perhaps one day, it will be my honor to own such a doll, and if and when that could happen, I will love the doll twice as much as I would love it today just because I want it.

I hope this makes sense.

:-)

 

1) Do you feel that some people have a "sense of entitlement" to certain dolls, such as limiteds or very popular dolls?

Yes. My god, yes. Every person who comes up with 'is this doll overpriced' threads reek of entitlement issues to me. And then there are the people who act on this sense of entitlement...

2) If you believe that this "sense of entitlement" exists, do you think it is always wrong to feel "more entitled" than other doll owners?

It is always wrong. We live in a market economy, and dolls are not a need, so suck it up and move on if you can't afford to pay for it.

Or can such a feeling ever be justified by factors such as:
- The great love of the person wanting the doll for that particular doll?

No. Love buys nothing in the market economy.

- The role the person plays in the doll community

No. I don't see how this is even relevant.

- The person's financial status

No. This is a hobby. You won't die if you don't have it.

- Some other factor?

Never ever ever. Life's not fair. Too bad.

 

Exactly. When you (general) first get into the hobby, and you're getting to know what it's all about, I can understand someone going on a little about the doll's price. My friend and I had this surprised reaction when we realized the Volks dolls were $600. To note: it's not whining to say the dolls are expensive - everyone who's in this hobby sometimes gets exasperated at expense. It is whining to call them overpriced. There is a difference.

But the thing is, just because you find the price steep, complaining about it isn't going to make the companies lower it. You have to decide if the price of a legit BJD is worth it; if it is, you start saving. If not, you find another hobby or choose to be an admirer rather than an owner.

My friend decided to start working at a pizza place, and I got crafty with how I spent and saved my money. I've since lost contact with my friend, but I hope she has enough money to buy the Volks she wants. I know my creativity has paid off because I have two BJDs.

 

I've actually never thought about this in this light.
I don't know but I've sort of missed the whole elitism, entitlement and general whininess in the community, I never had a thought about it since I read over and over and over that you should get the doll YOU have fallen for.

There is no denying I've looked at dolls and been like "SO PRETTY ARGH Y U NO LESS EXPENSIVE", because as a third ring student in high school/gymnasium earning the amount of money for that and actually keeping to saving it is pretty... hard.
Not to say it's impossible, I mean, I have 3 dolls and two on the way now because I've been tactical with my money and my choices in my purchases. But I don't feel in any way entitled to own the dolls that I do really want, because I know most of them are on the slightly cheaper side in this hobby, so complaining would be pretty stupid. It's like comparing me being hungry after skipping breakfast to a homeless person who's not had any food for two days - pretty harsh, but my point is that I'd be ridiculous to whine about it, since I could've been going for a Volks and not a DiM doll.

When I think about it, I do think I've seen entitlement here and there, but not to the extreme, I think. *Shrug*

 

1) Do you feel that some people have a "sense of entitlement" to certain dolls, such as limiteds or very popular dolls?
Honestly, I thought this was going to be about people expecting parents or significant others to buy them dolls. Now that's entitlement. I suppose I'd never really thought about it... but, yes, there are those who fixate on price and think that they shouldn't have to pay so much to get the doll that they want. Those that complain and complain but make no efforts towards obtaining the doll themselves are acting entitled.

2) If you believe that this "sense of entitlement" exists, do you think it is always wrong to feel "more entitled" than other doll owners?
It's silly, don't know about wrong.

Or can such a feeling ever be justified by factors such as:
- The great love of the person wanting the doll for that particular doll?
That's very childish. Who's to say that you want and love that doll more than someone else?

- The role the person plays in the doll community -
I don't see how that's relevant. I don't believe in a pecking order.

- The person's financial status -
Not to be rude, but you either have the money or you don't. If you find a great deal, good for you! Otherwise you can't expect a seller to lower a price to accommodate your situation.

 

1) Do you feel that some people have a "sense of entitlement" to certain dolls, such as limiteds or very popular dolls?
As others have said, people seem to feel entitled to all sorts of things. It's one thing to expect basic needs/rights. But dolls? Even for creative purposes, BJDs are not necessary for life.

2) If you believe that this "sense of entitlement" exists, do you think it is always wrong to feel "more entitled" than other doll owners?
Depends on the circumstances. The whole feedback system is designed to show that some people are more 'entitled' - ie they have earned trust. & if a person wants a certain doll, its much more likely they will get it if they look constantly for it. But that hardly makes them entitled to it.

Or can such a feeling ever be justified by factors such as:
- The great love of the person wanting the doll for that particular doll?
Kind of irrelevant.

- The role the person plays in the doll community -
Irrelevant.

- The person's financial status -
? Again, irrelevant.

I might add, I do realize there is a huge division in this community between those who insist it's only a ~hobby~ & others who see it as an expression of creativity. For some, sure, just a hobby. For others, not so much. Those on both sides (hobby collectors, art appreciators) often are horrified at LEs being treated casually, being 'destroyed' by mods, etc. Whole different debate -that is not entitlement (usually) but rather a need to preserve rare & precious things.

 

1) Do you feel that some people have a "sense of entitlement" to certain dolls, such as limiteds or very popular dolls? Yes, and it seems to be getting worse as the hobby grows and expands. This is a luxury hobby. These dolls are expensive. Even the less-pricey brands and sizes are expensive and, as a result, this is not a hobby for everyone. It often requires hard work, savings, creativity and time to be able to afford a doll.

Yet I see more and more people complaining about *how* expensive and wishing/demanding/complaining that prices should be lowered (both from the companies themselves and especially on the marketplace) to meet their budgets. I see more and more of the "I want it and because I want it, it should be available to me NOW and CHEAP" mentality. That's not how this hobby works. Learn to deal with the pricetags, or learn to be content with admiring from afar.

God forbid if someone missed out on a limited that was made 3-4 years ago. Suddenly anyone trying to sell it at the current fair market value (re: rates dictated by supply and demand in EVERY HOBBY EVER) is suddenly a scalper who has no consideration for their abhorrent behaviour in denying someone their dream doll. I cannot fathom how people can have this mindset. It's being a spoiled brat, plain and simple.

2) If you believe that this "sense of entitlement" exists, do you think it is always wrong to feel "more entitled" than other doll owners?
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: yes. This isn’t the Hunger Games, people. It’s not food, or shelter or water or any other thing necessary to survival. It’s a doll. A pretty, expensive doll. We will not die if we don’t get the one we want, and anyone’s denied-dolly angst is only as dramatic as that person chooses to make it. No one’s quality of life will suffer if denied/unable to procure that dream doll. And if it does....I strongly recommend re-evaulating one's prioities and/or seeking professional help if not owning a doll is truly the cause of such devasation. At worst, one will be sad and inconvenienced. However, these days, there is a growing mentality that sad an inconvenienced are unacceptable things to be, and that one should be able to get what they want when they want it at a price they can afford. As a society, we really need to find a way to get over it.

Or can such a feeling ever be justified by factors such as:
- The great love of the person wanting the doll for that particular doll?
Absolutely not. How does one quantifiably measure love, anyway? How could anyone ever objectively and indisputably determine who would love a doll more, or who is more deserving? Would there be an essay component? Some form of dolly reality show where potential owners would complete to see who is willing to go the farthest extremes to bring their dream doll home? Are dolls that are carted around and cuddled every day and slept with every night loved more than those that are kept on shelves or in boxes? Would existing owners be forced to surrender their dolls if they were deemed less worthy than someone else? Someone being "more deserving" to own a doll because they love it more is a ridiculous notion.

- The role the person plays in the doll community - This should be a complete and utter non-factor, and cinnabar_rose said it better than I ever could.

- The person's financial status - such as the fact that they are unlikely to ever have a large sum of money to pay the secondary market price of the doll? Or that they have worked very hard to save up money for a doll? Nope. Again, this should always be a non-factor. A super-rich person who can buy 20 dolls a month has a same right to any doll out there as the person who saved pennies for six years to be able to afford their first-ever BJD.



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