Social Status

I can understand that, yet at the same time, when bad stuff does actually happen (and to be fair, it sometimes does), people often feel the need to commiserate plus it is a topical story. I don't think not sharing stories because they are negative is the way to avoid exaggeration of a perceived issue or hurt feelings. It's better to recognize that yes, there are some crappy people out there as there are in all groups, but they are a very small minority. That is the truth of the matter after all. When you start getting into accounts that aren't first hand, stories start to become more problematic and that's where I can see more issues popping up, but a first hand account of an experience is a bit different.

By the way, assuming that someone is purposely spreading negative stories based on the type of doll that they own really doesn't sit well with me, and is the kind of attitude that doesn't help the situation.

 

All people are different and deal with situations with different ways. I think that @Issen post was more flaming than @pygmalia ! Just relax and enjoy your dolls!

 

Hi Taco. Yes I see your point but I am not finger pointing any specific doll owner or doll type. I am unhappy that these posts happen and seem to exist to fan the flames of anger between people. There are some people who feel very defensive about their doll choices and really it doesn't help to use stories like the one above to prove that other owners are snobs.

I stand by my post.

domination - Yes sometimes I do get frustrated. Stores like the one posted really bother me because I believe this community is pretty well behaved and polite.

 

You said you suspected her of purposely causing trouble because she possesses a BBB. I'm not saying that you feel all BBB owners are trying to cause trouble, but that in this one particular instance it threw doubt on that particular poster's motives. However, that was not a reason to suspect an ulterior motive behind pygmalia's post. It seemed like an uncalled for accusation.

I understand that. I have trouble with negative posts that are hearsay -- "my friend knew some person who had such and such happen blah blah blah" where there's no way to know if the story is real, if it became exaggerated in passing it on, if multiple people are referring to the same instance but thinking it had happened more than once etc etc. That kind of thing can really help give the impression that there is much more snobbery than there really is.

Yet, expecting people to only share their personal experiences that are positive is asking an awful lot. I too believe that this is overall a very nice community to be a part of, and I don't like some of the assumptions people make about other hobbyists, but that doesn't mean that everyone will only ever have positive experiences. Getting frustrated and jumping on somebody for sharing a personal experience looks as bad as the stories you don't want spread IMO.

 

Sorry I just don't agree with you.

 

I can kind of see where Isenn's coming from. I don't know, it just strikes me a somewhat exaggerated to think that someone at a doll meet would happily toss someone else' doll across a room and not get ripped a new one by everyone else present but then perhaps that's because such behavior is just so removed from what one would expect from anyone over the age of four.
Honestly, if that happened at a meet and someone saw it, or heard the apparent mocking afterward, why was nothing said to the woman in question? She sure as hell wouldn't be welcome to attend any future meets if it was my local group.

I agree that stories like this can't be dismissed just because it's negative and they shouldn't be censored based on the fact it could lead to more negativity but at the same time I think a little common sense is needed and they should perhaps be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

Wow I totally don't understand why you're so upset. I apologize if I've somehow created some sort of animosity. that was NOT my intention. I was merely trying to state that there is definitely a status issue in the community. Also I didn't own a doll at all when I went to the meet-up so I don't know what sort of bias I could have held. I was referring to the entire world needing less hate, in general, to point at me and say that I'm some sort of hater means you totally missed the point. I have posted only positive things in this forum (until this real life event anecdote) because I am a positive person. The person that throws doll be it a Volks or a Bobobie (I have a resinsoul, they are different) is to me a negative and status obsessed, disrespectful person. I'll reiterate that the "hate" comment was about the world in general and as there are some people that try their hardest to find things to get all angered and violent about, whether it be in the doll world or elsewhere. I am sorry you seem to be so upset about this, but seriously there was no reason for you to accuse me of being a negative person because I shared an OT story about the status obsessed crowd, I have never done anything "negative to gratify" myself, I find that not only harsh but totally uncalled for.

 

I'm gonna be blunt and say that I believe what people are trying to say here without sounding accusatory is that this story sounds like it needs a veracity check.

But what happens at a doll meet is not so hard to verify. Lots of people from Seattle are on this forum. Who is this lady and when did this happen? Who owns the Bobobie because I believe she should be told that an acquaintance is treating her possessions in a damaging manner. Who else attended the meet? Did all of them remain silent in the face of someone acting that way? If they didn't see it, shouldn't they be told that amongst their midst is someone prone to flinging items of high expense across the room if it doesn't live up to their standards?

I'm not even questioning the existence of elitism in the hobby. It definitely exists. But it is usually a lot more subtle and rarely involves physical acts against inanimate objects. Even direct confrontation of elitism (someone saying face to face that one company is inferior to another) is rare enough.

 

Yes it did happen at the very first meet I ever went to when most of the people were already gone and or in the kitchen there were 4 others in the room with me and they saw me go over And pick her up. but they only heard the scoff and thump they were facing me so they didn't see the throwing. But yes there were witnesses and yes it did happen.
I will not mention who it was the issue has already been talked over and I was merely sharing. there are other negative things I've witnessed at events but I will not mention them or point fingers or name names. THAT was not my point and I believe that people can learn from their mistakes.So Yes it happened and yes there were witnesses but no I don't think it's anyone's concern past that as it's been handled and adding fanning to this fire was never my intention I just wanted to share a story that I thought was on topic.

 

pygmalia was this a recent meet up? Were other DOA members there?

This reminds me of a similar story of someone that grabbed someone else's doll and slammed it against a wall that was circulating around the doll community about 5 or 6 years ago but was never officially proven to have happened. So don't be surprised if some DOA members may not believe the incident because there have been similar stories circulating before with no more than a single witness.

 

I don't think it's that simple.

The items themselves vary, even if it is just in terms of their style. If there were two identical items from different brands, or at different price points, the choices would indicate status-based choices, but mostly it's aesthetic choices from what I've seen in the doll community.

I would be thrilled if some of my more costly dolls were made by companies with lower prices, for instance. I am thrilled with the dolls I have that do come from lower cost companies. None of that has anything to do with where they come from, who made them, or how much they cost -- it's all about how they look. I don't care if space monkeys from Xenon Prime made them and are selling them on the street corner for $5 a fullset; if it's something visually appealing to me, I'm going to like it. That seems to be considerably more common than jockeying for status with one's wallet around here.

To address pygmalia's point,

You know, as someone who has a lot of dolls... no. Having a lot of dolls does not make someone special, cool, rich, superior, awesome, or whatever else. It just makes them someone with a lot of dolls.

I'd suggest taking a look at some of the threads where people who have more than just a few talk about their experiences before marrying yourself to that interpretation, because I haven't seen a single person speak up to present that attitude. Maybe they're just smart enough to not do it here, but ascribing nastiness to a random comment about keeping some dolls in boxes -- which is also pretty common just as a protective measure in certain living conditions and not at all an indication of snobbery -- seems like looking for the worst possible interpretation without all facts in evidence. That person might keep their dolls in boxes because they're afraid the aliens (read: cats) will come to get them if they aren't, or just because their shelf space is at a premium and they rotate which dolls are or aren't on display.

 

I'm very curious about this story also. I haven't been to a Seattle meet lately but since I go when I have the time, I'm interested to know who's handling other people's dolls in this manner. I know I wouldn't be comfortable trusting my dolls in the hands of someone who thinks dropping ANY doll on the floor is appropriate behavior, and I KNOW at least one person has been asked not to come to Seattle meets anymore for doing less than that, so your story really does not ring true for me absent some other verification. You say you don't want to name the person involved because it's already been discussed, but that's not the sort of accusation you can make and then just let it hang. Mishandling other people's dolls is pretty serious stuff.

I don't think not having any dolls means you don't have biases. I think you're clearly coming from a position of assuming the presence of some pretty hardcore doll snobbery in Seattle, for instance, which isn't something I've seen in particular.

 

Has it been handled beyond what you have described here? Because other than for veracity's sake, I feel I would have the right to be told if my doll was flung around by someone else and even if I wasn't the owner, I would like to know for future's sake. People can learn from their mistakes but shouldn't a group of people who regularly trust each other with their dolls be given relevant information on how another person is handling other people's personal belongings?

On the veracity side of things...I want to clarify that I'm not jumping on you or anyone else who has had a negative experience. But when it comes to such extreme circumstances, I feel some verification needs to happen. It would set good precedence. There has been a number of extreme 'experiences' people shared (including destruction of dolls at conventions) that has circulated and added to the negative emotions to do with elitism but most (if not all) has never been verified.

 

It's entirely possible there is someone out there who would throw a doll across the room... but to me, that isn't snobbery, it's just insanity! The person obviously needs help and has major issues!!!!

Snobbery of any sort requires making judgements such as "people with money are somehow superior" or "owning a certain type of doll or designer fashion item is superior"... Yeah, some people can think that way... but does everyone else have to BELIEVE it, too??? I don't. I think there are are good people and bad people with money and good people and bad people who own certain dolls. If they think they are superior, hey, go right ahead, but I don't believe they are!!!

I happen to have quite a few dolls--but then, if you all were buying since 2004 and haven't had a big financial crises and had to sell so far, you'd probably have a number of dolls, too... At any rate, I know people who aren't rolling in money who have a lot of dolls.... I don't think it means anything other than some of us are doll-hoarders and some will sell dolls they don't need so much in favor of buying others... Or they just haven't been around buying for as long...

I don't think it makes anyone a better or worse person if they own more or less dolls... or if they own a BBB vs a Bermann...

And yes, there are crazy-people out there!!! I don't deny it. Buy why focus on them? There are crazy people everywhere... and some own BJDs and some don't. Do we have to talk about them to know that they exist??? Well, maybe, for some folk. I know I don't... but them I'm older and have seen all kinds of crazy and all kinds of good. I know the world can be a bad old place, but I have BJDs 'cause I don't want to focus on the bad stuff. I want to look at pretty dolls and have fun. I'm not ignoring the bad... I'm just not interested in wallowing in it... Or even hearing more about it. I just have to watch the news to know about bad.

But everyone is different. I think all viewpoints are valid. If someone needs to work out the bad things... that's what these discussions are for. The those who don't like more edgy debates can ignore these threads (I usually do!).

I just pop in now and then and give my 2cents in hope that people see there are people who aren't crazy or snobby out there... AND to say that when you do encounter the bad people, you should understand that you shouldn't take it to heart because most people don't think that way and the people who are crazy or snobby shouldn't be encouraged by anyone (except maybe marketing people who work on selling designer items!). If more people were not so affected by them, they would make less of an impact!

I'm definitely all for discouraging such behavior, myself. But hey... if they are happy being snobs or throwing dolls around--go ahead--but groups I know would totally ban their asses from attending doll meetups, and I think that's fair and right!

 

Definitely. I mean, unless you really know the person you're talking to on-line (which isn't really the case with most DoA interactions), you won't always know if someone is being truthful or exaggerating or outright lying. On the other hand, as April pointed out above, there are crazy people out there so it's within the realm of possibility *shrug*. The way I see it is that hypothetically, if the story is true, then it's awful for the people involved, yet when it comes to the community as a whole, it would be a very unusual isolated incident and that's what people need to be reminded of -- really bad behavior is atypical so don't live in fear of it. I'm less concerned with every story being proven since it's often not possible (and stories of this severity rarely come up) and more concerned with the overreactions people tend to have over even the thought of a possible less than positive interaction. Whether or not this particular instance happened as described, the occasional negative encounter *will* come up and it's up to hobbyists to start using their heads and start pulling themselves out of the victim mentality that's been claiming so many people lately.

I think the real issue is a lack of confidence where people are fearing the reactions of their fellow hobbyists. Any group will have at least a few unpleasant people (and probably a real crazy here or there), but the possibility of a chance encounter with a moron shouldn't be something that causes the kind of fear and defensiveness that has been showing up on DoA. And it's not just discussions of elitism outright -- I think it also appears in the constant questioning of "is it okay to...?" I remember being nervous before my first doll meetup because I tend to be a very shy person. However, it never occurred to me to be afraid of other people's reactions to my doll.

 

Yeah, there is a point where this isn't all a courtroom. Personally I will take any story like that with more than a grain of salt, because my grasp of this community in particular and society in general doesn't suggest to me that this would be treated as acceptable behaviour at a meetup.

But even if it did happen, can't incidents like this be a case of the exception that proves the rule? If on rare occasions there are a-holes saying their a-hole things in doll circles, but that shocks other people present, and in the vast majority of times people are not acting in this way at all, shouldn't the standard behaviour be the more accurate representation of the community?

I've got a lit degree. I analyze language by nature and training. But I've seen some experienced members of the forum come out and say on some threads that if it isn't explicitly written in a post, don't act like it's there. I think it's impossible to act like any speech act lacks implications and connotations, intended or otherwise, but in terms of what doll folks are saying I think that's the most sensible policy. If someone says, "I'm better than you because I own X" or "I would never own X because it's cheap crap" then you've got something. If they say, "I keep my dolls in boxes and out of sunlight because they were very expensive and hard to get," take it as a simple statement of fact about what they do and move on. It probably has zero to do with you and what you may or may not own.

 

Oh, timid! Thank you for making this point. I'd wager that a lot of hurt feelings come from subtext, both intended or otherwise.

 

I have been floating around in the BJD fandom for about five... maybe six years now, but have only owned a doll for about nine months (My lovely grumpy bastard, Gabriel who is a SoulDoll Chiron). Now, I don't have a lot of money at all, in fact it took me the best part of a year to save up for Gabriel, but he was the one I wanted, to me he is perfect and I feel that the wait and all the saving and not having other luxuries was well worth it. He is my gorgeous resin man, and having him around is a joy. I do not keep him in his box, but I do not think other people are elitist because of it. I think the only negative comment I have had was someone saying that SoulDoll are far too expensive for what you get and that Gabriel has a mean face. And you know what? Honestly. I'm really not bothered, that is their opinion and they are entitled to it. Yeah, SoulDoll can be rather pricey at times, but that doesn't really change anything for me. If I want a doll bad enough, then I'll just save up for them. Because of this, it means that i don't get to buy the Monthly dolls because I don't have enough time to save up. So, I am currently making my own Sard out of bits and pieces I find on the Marketplace. I am actually having more fun with this than just buying a doll as a whole.
I do not think that my way of collecting is any better than anyone elses, and yeah sometimes I do find myself looking at the more expensive dolls and wishing I could have them, but at the end of the day if I -really- wanted them, I'd save up and get them.
My first meet was a Preston meet, I didn't have a doll and I was nervous as all hell, but they were all so lovely. People were letting me play with their dolls and everyone was marvelling over each other's resin kids, it didn't matter which company each doll was from, everyone found something nice to say and I didn't even get a hint of elitism.

I'm rambling aren't I? Bugger, I always do this!

I guess what I am trying to say, is that yes you do get elitism sometimes, but for the most part people are lovely and are just as interested in your doll as you are of theirs. Perhaps most of this elitism is in people's heads? At the end of the day, we are grown women and men playing with dolls. Let us enjoy this simple pleasure and not waste our time sniping at other people, or being worried about what people think of our dollies.

 

To be perfectly honest, I also have my doubts about the story... But that comes from having been involved with the Seattle-area doll owners for a fair few years now. I've never seen or heard behavior of that sort from *any* of the locals. Neither the older collectors I know nor the younger ones who have shown up more recently have ever seemed to make much of a distinction between brands. Particularly not to the point of mishandling someone else's intentionally.

So, call me doubtful, but I'm skeptical that things really happened quite the way Pygmalia described. >_>