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The Age Gap

Apr 19, 2010

    1. I'm really thrilled that you had the maturity that some children are lacking. I had it at that age, too. I grew up in NYC where kids mature pretty fast, are exposed to things many other kids don't find out about until adulthood, and as a younger sibling, my parents were very lenient with me.

      I do think that age and experience brings a different perspective to the matter, however. As a teacher, I worked with a man who was loved by parents, kids and quite a few other teachers. Teacher of the year several times, completely devoted to his job. Some parents were happy to send their kids on summer trips to Europe with him. He set off some teacher's radar however, for reasons that were a little difficult to pinpoint. Not enough emotional distance between him and the kids, maybe? It was nothing overt, and definitely not something you could report. But that feeling of unease made me trust my gut, because he was later observed molesting a student.

      So yeah, if my kid wanted to hang out with an adult my age (44) or even younger I'd want to meet that person before leaving my son with the person. I'm not finding that "crazy," at all. My son is actually is quite mature for his age, and we haven't sheltered him. It's not him I don't trust, though. It's the people who could hurt him-- even the ones who seem nice on the surface. While my son is in my care, it's my job to do my best to prevent that. It is by no means "hiding from life in fear of something bad happening." It's called parenting.
       
    2. Except... what constitutes a private meetup? I've seen people advertise meets that are in their homes on the forums here, for example. I'd certainly think those people have every right to say: "no one under 18 permitted without a parent". That isn't a matter of subject matter, but as many have said, of legal liability, which is a pain in public places, but an unholy nightmare if it is in your own home. I certainly wouldn't think it unreasonable for a meet organizer to add such a clause, whether it is their home or in another place. Some places -- even certain malls, parks, etc. -- are not especially keen on the notion of unaccompanied minors and have rules about such things.

      Maturity or lack thereof has nothing to do with those things, I'm afraid. The actual minor in question could be the most mature person in the world -- it doesn't mean they might not have an allergic reaction to something that requires a medical decision from a parent or legal guardian, it doesn't mean some other horrible person not affiliated with the meet isn't going to kidnap them or the pervy person who isn't part of the meet but lurks around where it is being held that no one knows about isn't going to approach them. The world is bigger than how mature the people setting out to attend the meet itself are, and that's something critically important to keep in mind.
       
    3. There is this argument of maturity. What is maturity is a legal sense or in a scientific and does it vary across people?

      In USA, the age of consent is 18. Some states in the USA have teens (of course, those who have committed a crime) 16 and above tried as adults in criminal court.
      The sad part of American society is that this society has become very litigious. Any little touch on the shoulder, friendly gesture, a small kiss and etc have become morphed into something greater than just that friendly gesture. It is because the media has paid more close attention to the awareness of child abuse and as a result, many people have taken many precautions for their children against child predators.

      Maturity has many meanings. Perhaps some people have a genetic predisposition in which their brain matures much faster than others. Average people in fact don't have their frontal lobes or the place of rationality within the brain completely grow until they are in their 20's. Teens have a tendency of thinking "this isn't going to happen to me" or "I believe that I am mature because I took care of myself alone" but that doesn't define maturity at least in my own terms. When you brain matures normally in an average person, it opens up to new perspectives for a that person later on in life. I believe the average 15 year old you won't be the same as an average 18 year old you due to your mental capacities growing as the frontal lobe completes development.
       
    4. Age consent, for me, is just a number. A way to classify that after the age of 18, if you do something wrong, you are the one responsible for your own actions, and not your parents.
      I think the scientific view is also valid since our brain is still developing and there are informations that a child can't store that much nor process it well. But after a certain age, like 12 years old, children are very much able to understand things very well and we underestimate their capabilities.

      Maturity comes with experience, and not just aging. Each person has a different background and have experiences earlier or later than others. By your example, if a teen just thinks: "this isn't going to happen to me", he/she is not being mature, they are just assuming. But let's say that something DID happen (bad or good), then, they are learning and then start to think: "Ok! This isn't going to happen to me, because if I do this, that mistake is not going to happen again." And after sometime, more things are going to happen, when you finally end up with many experiences and think like: "well...this can happen, and now I know how to avoid it. And if it happens again I will know how to deal with it."

      And to reach a certain level of maturity, it involves a lot of trial and error....living and knowing yourself better, and not just avoiding.
      well....at least this is my understanding of this matter.

      A more extreme example, are children that lived in war times. They experience the notion of death, pain and sorrow much earlier in a way that many adults may never experience. And if that doesn't evolves into a trauma, then yes, even in a very young age, they do get very mature. But with that, they also lose much part of their childhood.
       
    5. There have actually been studies that show that the part of your brain that's responsible for decision-making and evaluating what's a good decision vs. what's a bad decision isn't actually fully developed until your early 20s. Our brains mature later than you might think!

      Personally I'm concerned with legal age of majority inasmuch as when I'm hanging out with someone, it matters to me who is legally responsible for their actions (i.e. it should be NOT ME). I've definitely met some adults who had no idea how to behave at a doll meet, and some young teens who were a delight.
       
    6. This. DoA is a forum, not an umbrella organization. A BJD club or just a group of enthusiasts having meet-ups doesn't actually have to allow minors at all, regardless of what DoA's age limits are. This isn't actually a hobby aimed at kids - I think that Volks's Tenshi-no-Sato doesn't even let kids in O_o;. Now a hobby or sport that can't attract youth is one with an uncertain future, and there are ways (such as having an adult accompanying minors) that they can be accomodated. I've never been to a meet-up in someone's home, only at places like Dolpas, and I think you may have to be over a certain age to attend those, even, but I wouldn't want responsibility for a minor I didn't even know.
       
    7. But how do you come to a decision that something is a Bad or a good decision?
      It's not like we wait till the age of 20 years old and suddenly the answer comes into mind (I'm not saying that you meant this :XD: ).
      An even if the brain isn't fully developed, that doesn't mean that the part that already is developed does not work.

      And maybe, the age of 20s might be related to the fact that we are still experimenting things in our life so that later we gather all these experiences and formulate your own concept of a bad decision x good decision.

      Well, I think I'm going to a different direction here....Better go back on track.

      You are right about being worried about 'who is the responsible for this minor' because inevitably, the older person around is the one that is going to be the responsible if something happen, even if you have nothing to do with them and even when you don't want that kind of responsability...
       
    8. While the brain doesn't *fully* mature physically until the early twenties, we start being able to reason logically around age seven and to reason with abstract concepts in early adolescence. Teenagers are capable of weighing pros and cons and considering external effects of a decision. They may make more misjudgments than an adult would, but that's just part of the learning process. Also, we have the ability to learn from a much younger age, so we can learn that certain kinds of things are a good or bad idea before being able to reason it for ourselves, and just because adults have the ability to reason more complexly doesn't mean that they use it.

      *Anyways*

      I'm twenty with no kids, but I can think of what it would be like.

      My fiance and I met online, so I don't think I would be right in telling my child that they are not allowed to meet or associate with someone they know from the internet. However, unless they were in their late teens I would definitely feel the need to chaperon to one degree or another unless I knew at least a few of the people who would be there very well. I always got on better with adults than with my own age group, and my younger brother and I have played music with much older musicians for many years, but a parent was always present unless it was someone we knew well. I might be concerned if they were going to be the only younger person at a place, but that's for more reason than their personal safety. (though that is included)

      I think that interaction between age groups can be greatly beneficial to all involved, but I would not let a young teenager go to a meeting of people they had met online--regardless of age group--without being there, and with an older teen I would at least want to meet the people first.

      I was nearly nineteen when I might my (now) fiance in person, after having talked to him and his parents multiple times on the phone and webcam, and my mom was still there the first time we met. Annoying, yeah a little, but I know in her situation I would have done the same.
       
    9. And as a much younger doll owner, how do you feel when you meet much older people from the hobby?
      Well, I'm 15 years old but I consider myself pretty mature for my age. I'm not amused by the silly, petty things most high school girls concern themselves with. I would rather have intillectual conversations with people much older than me, for I find talking to them easier. I struggle to make conversation with "normal" (or what soceity veiws as such) people at school. Outside of my friends, of course. I enjoy greatly meeting with older members of the community and the hobby.

      Was there ever something that bothered you about it?
      Not particularly. Of course there was a time or two where my mind took a turn down the dark road and I had a crazy fantasy of getting kidnapped by a psychotic doll owner. But honestly; that would never happen anyway xD

      I will continue to say that I don't think age plays a part in this hobby at all. If one is responsible enough to earn enough money for one of these dolls and keep good care of it, then I assume they are responsible enough to take care of themselves when in the company of an older person.
       
    10. But it's not "just a number" - it's actually the law.

      There's a reason that the age of consent is a bright-line law. If you're below that age, you're a minor. Period. The child's level of experience, maturity, intelligence, independence, decisionmaking, etc., doesn't matter. NONE of that is relevant at all, if the child is a minor according to the laws where you live.

      And that, in turn, is why conventions or stores or private meetups may choose to refuse admission to unaccompanied people under a certain age, or require parental waivers signed in-person. Accepting legal responsibility for a minor may not always be the kind of hassle that a private meetup-group wants to deal with, when all they want to do is gather & relax.
       
    11. This is exactly what I mean.
       
    12. Yes, it's a law (I'm not saying that it is useless-sorry if that came out that way), but what I'm saying that it is a classification still.
      I just meant that this law is not directly related to maturity. At the same time that someones age does not qualify someone as mentally mature.
       
    13. It comes with experience is what you say. However, what about the foundation of the body that existed before everything including experiences, preferences, personality, and etc? I hope people do not underestimate genetic predispositions. Like I said earlier, maturity varies across people. However, AVERAGE people do not have their rationality completely developed until their 20's. Before experiences, there is genetics which makes you who you are~both physically and mentally. Without genes, people would not exist. Perhaps some people are less mature not because they choose to be less mature than others but the fact that their brains or their genes were not adequate enough to hold perhaps the memories of their experiences or for them to develop faster or etc. For example, some people have genetic disorders or genetic conditions like down syndrome in which they mature differently from average people do. To say that a person with down syndrome that has the same cognitive ability as an average person is absurd.

      In order to even begin to make right decisions, you have to have the a genetic foundation.

      Yes, at age 12, an average child can understand things but not completely everything. It is why the law in USA recognizes that adults are 18. If people tell me that an average 12 year old child has the same rationality as an average 18 year old child, that is just absurd.

      Edit***I like to add that I am comparing the average or normal person, disregarding any abnormal genetic conditions that may affect the person and comparing two humans with different ages that are of normal development.
       
    14. Emotional or mental maturity aren't exactly easy to measure anyways, which is why laws such as that act as they do. To be practical at all they have to be one-size-fits-all. That some adults may not want the liability or responsibility of having unaccompanied minors at a meet-up is not unreasonable, IMO.
       
    15. Also, like I said earlier, maturity has so many meanings. You can define maturity on a philosophical level, a biological level, a sociological level or all of them together. People can only debate what they know of as of now. It is up to the individual to define what maturity is. What seems like an easy answer to this is not one. There are so many elements in defining maturity and debates in philosophy of what it is. I connect maturity with the development of the brain and genetics because I believe that it is a foundation in making a person a person. Then there is this philosophical debate in which what makes you you the same overtime and keeps you the same overtime. Is it memory like John Locke has argued? Is it genetics? Etc...
       
    16. Except that it really isn't in some very serious ways -- namely, liability. Liability is, from what I've seen in this thread, the primary objection to having unaccompanied minors present. I know it certainly is for me. I can't cheerfully redefine the law just because I feel like using a different definition of maturity. I can't redefine the law because someone happens to be exceptionally mature (or exceptionally immature). People are no more or less protected from legal liability because someone is exceptionally mature for their age in any of the ways you're describing, so while the definition may be as fluid and unique and varied as there are stars in the sky, it really changes nothing of the reality that people face in terms of legal liability when it comes to unaccompanied minors.
       
    17. By defining maturity, I do not mean that we ignore the laws of our society. I mean that we get to the root of what maturity means. When does maturity arise? How does maturity arise? Where does it start? Does society have an impact on when maturity develops? Is maturity correlated to the development of the brain? Do certain foods or environmental effects such air, pollution, and etc. influence maturity? Are there any aspects in why or why not people have mature faster than the past 100 years or so? Have there been a change in the development of a person? Etc. These are important questions in my mind that have to be answered. It may seem like it's useless but it is only good that people start to understand the roots of what it is or what things in general mean. By understanding or finding new discoveries in anything can lead to new inventions and ideas. Many people have said philosophy is a useless subject but I prefer to differ. Without philosophy, there wouldn't have been a new science such as psychology.

      Edit: Perhaps we are arguing two different things. What maturity is? and What maturity is in legal terms?
       
    18. I don't think those are questions that need to be answered in this thread. My thoughts on maturity as a concept have absolutely nothing to do with my comfort level regarding underage people present at doll meets. Maturity as an abstract social and cultural concept is outside the scope of a doll discussion forum IMO.
       
    19. Well I got into the hobby when I was 16 and the only person I could meet up with in my town was much older then myself, (30's almost?) I remember telling my friends about who then told the teachers then who banned me from seeing this person (Not like I listened, I'm a rebellious teenager!) Back Than I didn't understand and thought everyone was crazy but after a few years, I've come to realize that there are some scary people out there. Not that I'd believe they'd be on DOA but still.

      If I had a child... I think small meets would be okay for them to go to alone as long as they went with a buddy or another doll owner who I knew, just to be safe. But if it was a bigger doll meet, then I would most definitely either would want an older owner to look after my kid if not myself. Big meets are scary and easy to get lost in, I find! That also goes for those little meets at peoples houses'. If I've not met them, then honey, your not going =__= Simple as that!

      Sorry if my post sounds random xD
       
    20. As a teen, I thoguth myself to be much more mature then my peers. And maybe I was, but I definatly wasn't at an adult level.

      My point here is, we arn't the best judges of ourselves when ti coems to this sort of thing. so the laws are -nessisary- to define it in a way that applies to everyone... I think havingthat standardisgood, and I'm glad its there..

      Soem of the more poinent lessons in retrospect were ones where I KNEW I was old enough to handle something, and I was reminded that I was too young. Period. Limits are important especially to teenagers. Respecting limis on oneself builds a lot of character.

      buuutt on the topics of meetups, I've done lots of thigns on my own from ages 14+ (I didn't knowaobut dols back then but I was really into gaming/larping) this out-on-my-own privaldges came over time. but there were a few key details that I think madethings work. My mumalways knew where I was going, how I was getting there, and how/ewhen I'd be home. She also knew who I was with, and by this I mean she knew myfirends and the kind of peoepl they were. Friends can bea pwoerful protector... if something odd or weird gets by one friend, it def won't get by all of them.

      ifI had a child, I'd prbably go with them to a meet, or make sure mykid was with peopel I trusted... (their friends, a babysitter, family etc) but I'd also make sure it would be okay for said kid to be there, (IE if the event allows minor or not)