The Age Gap

This may be too much of an aside, but since it keeps occurring in the thread I feel compelled to ask. Why is it that most younger posters on DoA claim to be more mature than their years? It may very well be true; perhaps there is something about doll collecting that attracts the most rational, stable, and mature individuals. But based on the threads that are started around here sometimes, as well as behavior I have witnessed at large meet-ups, I don't think doll collectors are any more mature than any other group, and I doubt we have a higher percentage of mature youths than other hobbies, either. I know I certainly wasn't any more mature than my fellow teens when I was younger! I had different interests and my own style, but that's not the same thing.

Just curious, since it seems a number of people have brought up the "unusual maturity" argument as a reason why the age gap shouldn't concern anyone.

 

We don't. It's just that pretty much *everyone* thinks they're more mature and reasonable than they really are at that age. I know I sure did... And I was just as mistaken in that belief as most of my peers. XD

That aside, I come at this whole issue from the "other side", so to speak. At 40, I'm one of the older local owners, and to be completely honest about it I can rarely find much to talk about with the younger owners who show up at our meets. I'm not uncomfortabe around them, exactly... I just don't have much in common with the majority of them. I also seem to have very different ideas about what's appropriate in a public venue and what isn't, and that can make our interactions uneasy for both sides... I don't like having to remind a bunch of squealing teenagers to use their "inside voices" any more than they like having some bitchy old hag shush them.

Given that, I've followed a fair few of the other older locals in basically bowing out... I don't attend many meets any more, and the marked lowering of the average age of the other attendants is one of the reasons. The kids may not be comfortable hanging around with us Old Farts, but not all of us are particularly comfortable with them, either.

 

What kills me about this, in the end, is that thinking others should casually absorb legal risks and responsibilities simply because of a shared interest in a hobby seems to be a sign of an impressive level of immaturity -- or at the very least, a profound lack of understanding of what happens when you turn 18 and suddenly become considerably more responsible/liable under the law.

 

When I was in primary school, I thought I was the most mature person in the world and I could leave home at any point with no problem.

When I was in high school, I started to see the reality of the world but still thought I might leave home as soon as I turned 18.

But now, at uni, I'm like "no, mommy, dont throw me out~!"

It's kind of funny that I would act like that. One's maturity really is a subjective thing, isnt it?

 

I can see what you mean, but times are changing and certain situations force alot of kids to grow up alot faster sadly D:

Me? I've been living on my own since I was 16 xD I like to think I'm mature with a dash of immaturity on the side. I think alot, if not most, of the younger people on DOA probably are. I mean, they'd have to be, we're spending alot of money on dolls, after all : O

 

I think we all feel that we are "more mature" as teens. We don't understand what it really means to be an adult. I thought I was so mature as a teenager, and while I might have been more mature than many, what I really had was far more experience and that isn't necessarily a good thing. Most of that experience was the direct result of my immaturely putting myself in bad situations. But of course I didn't see it that way at the time. Looking back from the perspective of a 28yr old with kids of my own I can fully appreciate how immaturely I was acting and I can also understand what it really means to take on true adult responsibility. Age isn't a guarantee of maturity. I have had the misfortune of knowing plenty of individuals well over the age of majority who still acted like teenagers and relied on some one else (typically far to forgiving parents) to take care of them. But legally I am not responsible for a very immature 21yr old who acts up in my presence, however that is not the case with even the most mature 16yr old.

 

This exactly.

What I was saying, perhaps not as clearly as I would have liked, was that it seems to be a sign of immaturity to me to demand that others (who are likely strangers) face very real risks because one thinks one is 'exceptional' in some way. Whether one is exceptionally mature or not, the law doesn't recognize that 'exception'*, so demanding that fellow hobbyists do because 'hey we all like dolls!' seems to be very immature to me, and very lacking in understanding of what it means to actually have adult responsibilities.

*Save for in rare cases of emancipated minors, or even cases of people older than 18 who are not considered legally able to make decisions for themselves/etc. It can actually go both ways from the 18 marker -- but I doubt a majority of the people going on about how exceptionally mature they are have these legal ducks in a row to back that up in a way that protects those around them.

 

I understood what you were getting at, and I can definitely relate. I can also still relate to how teenagers feel, but being on the other side the legality issue is what sticks for me. Though here in my state 17 is considered the age of consent, unless I am much mistaken when a 17yr old commits an illegal act it still falls to their parent and responsibility for their safety could be placed on those over the age of 18 who are with them in a given situation. I'm not saying I would not be willing to assume that responsibility for some one I knew well, but I'm not willing to for a stranger. And from the reverse, as a parent, I don't feel it says much for my maturity and responsibility if I expect strangers to look out for my child. I put my child at risk as well as the others in the group. It is different with people you know well, but it shouldn't just be assumed.

 

Leaving the legal issues out of it, as I feel they've already been well covered, I can say that age gaps don't really bother me that much. I haven't been to a doll meet yet, but I am involved in other hobbies where I fall on the younger end of the age spectrum (I'm 20). I do Reconnaissance faires, for example, and was part of a writing group. Even though I was 18 when I went to that fist writing meeting, and even though it was in a local, busy book store, my mom still went with me. She sat off to the side and left me alone, but she still went. It seems perfectly reasonable for parents to want to go to a few meets with their kids first, and, in all honesty, if these minors were as mature as they say they are, they wouldn't mind Mommy sitting in the corner at a few meets.

 

I'm sixteen years old, and I haven't even considered going to a meet up because I think it would be awkward for both parties, adults and teenagers. And of course, there's always a possibility that it wouldn't be safe for me to attend without a parent or another responsible adult. No matter what I like to think, I'm still just a kid and I'm at a completely different point in my life than an adult.

I don't mind talking to people of all ages on a forum, because it's a lot different than trying to hang out in person.

I know my mom would be uncomfortable with the idea of me going to a meet up due to the age difference, and also the fact that she and I both don't know who might be there personally. The internet is a strange place. I find this completely understandable; if I were a parent, I wouldn't be surprised to think the same thing when it came to my child.

 

From my point of view, I defiantly don't mind. I've always been a tad mature for my age, resulting in older friends. I'm 17 now, and almost all my best friends are older than I am. I have quite a few friends who are much younger as well.
The age of my friends range from about 12-30 lol. :')

I was new to the hobby at about age 12-13. I didn't get my first BJD until I was 13/14, and I went to my first doll meet at 14.
At the meet, we met at Boston University (in one of the common areas), and almost everyone at the meet was at least 5 or more years older than I was.
My parents were obviously concerned, first because I had a sudden massive interest in resin dolls, and second because I wanted to go to a meet at a college (while i was in middle school) to meet other people with said dollies.
My mom figured it would be okay, as long as she walked in with me to make sure nothing was super out of the ordinary, minus the dolls. My dad was a little more wary. I'm also the third child out of 4, so I got to do a LOT of stuff really young, since I was more reliable at a younger age than my older two siblings. (I started traveling alone internationally at age 13).
Since it was at a trusted University, and all women at the meet, my mom was a little more comfortable, and I slowly got "adopted" into the group. There's one member in our group now that has officially named herself my caretaker, so she makes sure nothing happens to me, and makes sure I get to the meets alright.
Now, since I'm older, I'm given a lot more leeway, since I can drive, and I'll be entering college myself soon, etc.

But as far as it goes for the age gap, if the child, or younger teen is comfortable with older people it should be alright.
Although I think they would need to be mature enough to handle topics that might arise.
(Ex: I felt it was a tad awkward for the older members to be talking about doll yaoi/doll bits/other mature topics while I was around, since coming from an older point of view, its weird to talk about that sort of stuff with little kids.)

I guess it depends on the perspective of who's viewing the age gap: parents, or the kid :')

 

When I was a small child, I was a lot more mature than my age-group. But at about the teen years, I was markedly less mature, at least in terms of worldliness and naivete, than the other kids my age. As an 'adult'... I recognize that I am intelligent, but in many ways not *mature*, and I'm really glad that I had people in my family looking out for me (and still looking out for me, really, when I need it). So I don't just think it's the perspective of child/adult, I think maturity is a fluid thing that develops differently in different people. You might be above average in terms of maturity at one stage in life, but not at every stage in life.

=^__^=
Anneko

 

This is such an incredible astute point, it really is. I can relate to this a great deal also. I grew up around all adults, was mature as a child, and think of myself as a big kid now in many ways.

While thinking about the questions here, I thought for a bit about what I was doing during my high school years -- which was hanging out almost nightly at a community theater, either working backstage or rehearsing, with a group of people with ages spanning from about 8 to 80 quite literally. (There were about a dozen of us under 18, with five or six around on any average night, with ten to thirty adults, depending on what was going on.) We'd be there until the wee hours of morning, yes, even on the school nights, if that's what we needed to get done for that day. Conversations weren't particularly moderated, not everyone's parents were present -- though some were, and those parents present were known to everyone else's parents -- but there were limits on what people were permitted to do based on age due to the liability issues. Mostly, no wandering outside the building without someone over 18, no fussing around the lighting, catwalks, lighting/sound booth, no working with the power tools/sprays/strange chemicals, etc.

The kids from this same group all tended to pile over to one family's house for the weekends where we'd hang out, watch stupid movies, play AD&D... and that was a group from 12-18 or so, co-ed, all sleeping on the same couches in the same living room, and no one so much as flirted with anyone else all the while unless breaking into deliberately cheesy spontaneous performances of Les Mis counts. (The lack of worldliness? That was... so us. And yet I bet just about every parent of a teenager still felt their blood run just a teensy bit cold at how much could have gone wrong while reading that regardless. )

The reason this worked is something that might be worth looking at -- mainly, it was a very tight-knit group, even though it was rather large. It was also a group that had complete control of the meeting space, which isn't necessarily something that will happen at a meetup even if space is rented, unless it's at someone's home. (And that's asking that individual to assume a lot of risk, minors present or not, if it's open invite.)

So, yeah, there are certainly rewards for the necessary maturity to Not Be An Idiot and environments in which it does work nicely. They just don't always translate well to every hobby or every group.

 

Magic white lady makes a very good point, one that the underage doll lovers on this debate need to listen to, whether they study philosophy or not... legal issues aside, we simply aren't the best people to judge our own level of maturity until we are MUCH older. I was a precocious child, I got on much better with adults than people my own age and most of my hobbies involved me hanging out with older people. I was also quite willful and hated the fact that my parents were always interfering and demanding to meet my friends ... they made me feel "like a kid".

When I was just legally old enough (by a few weeks) I was out with a group of older people (we went on a landscape painting trip) without any warning I had my very first epileptic fit and hit my head so hard that I had concussion and temporary amnesia... in hospital all I wanted was my parents.... if that had happened a few weeks earlier an experience that was already very distressing and traumatic for my companions would probably have had some legal issues attached too. What if the damage I did to my head had been worse and I'd needed an operation? No one would have been able to give consent, as it was no one could track my parents down for nearly 24 hours because the only person who knew where they were (me) was unconscious.

OK, so someone could have an accident at any age but when it happens to someone legally deemed a "minor", the ambulance crew won't be asking how mature you are... and now, much older I look back and realise that even in my early twenties, I may have been intellectually mature, I might have been reasonably street wise... but I wasn't emotionally mature... and that has a huge effect on our decision making. Parents are our guardians until a certain age legally for a reason. The line has to be drawn somewhere and it has to be drawn by the law.

I wouldn't be happy at a doll meet with young unattended kids either, that seems to be coming across load and clear on here, and as everyone is saying, that's got nothing to do with maturity levels and treating people like kids, it's down to the law.

 

Doll collecting attracts various ages. It's ridiculous to think that public events whether they be physical meets or online discussions will automatically exclude younger collectors unless this is explicitly stated. I appreciate there are legalities to consider, however, as relevant this factor is it isn't one that carries much weight on this forum despite some very mature material. If someone were to post a risque picture, for example, there is a strong chance that at least one minor will view that picture even with some kind of "warning". In fact, the warning could be exactly why the image was viewed. Parents don't generally view the material that their children look at on the Internet particularly on forums which require login credentials. It's not unreasonable to think that this could possibly reflect in reality despite the legal factors.

How would you feel to know that your kids are hanging out with much older people from the hobby to play with dolls?

I wouldn't let this happen if it was my child, however, what I would do and what Person X would do is a completely different thing. I also wouldn't let my child join a doll forum unless it was a forum I was familiar with. But, that doesn't necessarily mean my child won't sign up secretly and keep it from me. Yet another reason not to procreate. The Internet isn't always a safe place just like in the real world.

And as a much younger doll owner, how do you feel when you meet much older people from the hobby?

I haven't met older collectors in real life, however, I have made some very good friends on-line who are nearly twice my age. But, we were and are adults. I don't think an age gap is as relevant if people share a hobby and can develop friendships based on similar life experiences. But, it's difficult for someone who works to develop a friendship with someone who never has irregardless of age. A 22 year-old who has only ever been a student and never worked will likely relate better to a teenager than to a 25 year-old who has worked for a few years. Life stages carry more relevance than age, in my opinion, in many situations but certainly not all.

 

Elphsnt, you make a very good point. Life stages are at least as important as "maturity" (whatever meaning of the word you choose to use) when it comes to the age gap. So, a hard working 17 year old could possibly enjoy a meet more when talking to an adult, as opposed to a 16 year old that has never had a job. On the other side, however, I personally enjoy talking to people who are in different stages then myself, because I like to hear different perspectives.

 

My kids are 3 and 1 right now, so it's a hypothetical for me, but I'd be a little uncomfortable with them hanging out with significantly older friends. If my kids wanted to go spend alone-time with an adult I didn't know, I'd be uncomfortable about it. I guess once they get to be 15 or 16 I wouldn't be as protective, but again, it's hard for me to imagine my babies as teenagers and predict how controlling I'll want to be. If my kids are into the doll hobby, that'll make it a lot easier for me - I'll just go to the same meet/convention/event as my kids and keep an eye from afar!

 

The age differences don't really bother me personally, but I know that my own mother gets worried some times. The first dollmeets I went to, she went with me. Eventually, she realized that most of the people there are either moms themselves or people within my age range. If there were more guys in the hobby, she probably would have had more reservations. I think her approach was right, and I'd do the same for my kids.

 

It seems a lot of people feel that 'overprotective' parenting in ridiculous. My mother was indeed overprotective of me and my siblings, which was tough at times.

But she wasn't strict so when she let us go out, she wanted us to be safe and out of general respect we would always tell her where we were headed and that we safe.
That kind of motherly protection doesn't just die either, she stills asks us to let her know we're okay. And I respect that, because that's all she asks. Protective or not, she's still reasonable.

And I will tell you now that general feeling of mom thinking about you is like no other feeling and you will never feel like an unloved child because of it.

But I think since 'predators' and general bad people are not the only thing you have to worry about when a child is miles alone that that's probably what would set a parent off.

Sure you have those worries when you're at school and their at home/work, but I guess since those two things are mandatory they trust you to be safe.

To me it's not about 'stranger danger' safety, but more of :

"Will they know what to do if ---- happens"

Or maybe do they trust you to be alone. Sometimes protecting your feelings is another thing parents look at. I don't know if anyone has ever had an experience with feeling
'unwanted' or 'shunned' at a meet so I'm wondering if that might be a concern.

Some of us have experience with kids, some of us don't. For good reason. And vice-versa. It seems to be divided thus far, though.

 

I like having older doll friends as it verifies a very awesome XKCD comic:

We are adults now. We decide what that means.