The Age Gap

In Target, I found those hollow plastic ball pit balls... I'll be honest, I thought about the logistics of turning an entire room into a ball pit because of that strip.

Back on topic, though, I think it's true that 'Stranger Danger' isn't the biggest factor in young people, maturity, and doing things without their parents around. Despite the staggering naivete of my teen years, I knew what not to do in that arena because that's what kids are warned about, all the time. Parents warn kids, teachers warn kids, TV warns kids...

But if I was in an unfamiliar situation and something else went wrong, I would not have known what to do. Someone getting sick or injured, losing my wallet, or simply being on my own in a place I didn't know my way around, all those things could have led to a major panic attack. Honestly, I'm still pretty young and all of those things still could. And sometimes the nearest meet is in the next town over, or with people you don't know well enough to be comfortable turning to in a minor emergency, or what have you. So there is that, which if I were a parent, I would worry about just as much as I would worry about the people in the group (well, also, if I was the parent, I'd make a point to meet the group of people my child was going to be with beforehand...)

As much as parents do need to worry about who their kids spend time with, though, I think cross-generational friendships can be a wonderful thing. When I was very young, I was often completely cut off from people my own age, and sometimes knowing just one or two friendly adults was really important to me, because I needed someone to talk to. Of course, those adults were people from the school or church, and my parents knew them... I think it's good for kids to have someone occupying a 'mentor' type position, and I think some adults are very good at remembering what being young was like, and those adults can be a good friend and role model.

=^__^=
Anneko

 

Doll-collecting isn't my first hobby so I'm already used to meeting older people. In my first hobby it was alittle bit strange because the atmosphere is almost completely college-y, with people talking about careers and marriage.

When I started homeschooling in middleschool I was rather shy and didn't make many friends. I'm an only child. All of the people I talked to ended up being people from my church and my parents' friends (anywhere from 20's to 40's). Probably because of that, I'm socially a very mellow/low-key person. So I always find it easier to be around people who are more calm and mature (not jumping around excited or gossiping about boys like many of my friends my age xD).

My mom and I are like best friends so she's always with me at meet-ups! I think that the other collecters like her too. In some hobbies she's considered the "mom of the group." X3

What bothers me about being younger is that, for one, I can't on a whim decide to do something with the group. For instance, if everyone wants to go out for ice cream after the formal meet it must be run by my mom first- I have to ask first if she's interested and if it's okay to spend more time (in case she wants/needs to go back home for some reason). Normally this isn't a big deal but sometimes when I'm ready to do something else she's just tired (understandably).

Another thing is that, since I'm young, other people often affect my schedule. Lots of times my (non-dolly) plans are set only days before the date so there's no telling what days I'm available for a meet. Also, generally if my mom is busy, I'm busy. That doesn't allow for much set-in-stone time & date planning.

This is more just a part of me than my age (since others are the opposite of me) but I do still have a hard time conversing with people. It doesn't help that I can't really talk in-depth about anything regarding college, jobs, appartments or marriage.
I've been coming out of my shell lately but it's still a W.I.P.

What I do like about being younger (in a group of older people) is seeing the more mature and interesting atmosphere and the unique personalities of my collecter friends. It's nice to be able to experience all of the different age spectrums of friends in my life (middleschool, highschool, early college, late college, out of college, so forth).

Doll-collectors are of course more accepting of strange hobbies so that's nice. ^^

If I were a parent I would go to meet-ups with my kids. I don't feel comfortable thinking of leaving them by themselves. I'd like to take interest in their interests. Hopefully we would have a good enough relationship that he/she would want me around.

<______< It looks like I wrote an essay. Sorry for the long reply!

 

Several people have mentioned the fear that youngsters will be exposed to "yaoi" or other controversial things while at doll meetups.

I think there is a big misconception. I am not AFRAID that my son will discover yaoi (for example), it's just that when/if he does, I'd like to know about it so that we can discuss how it is viewed by our religion, social group, and family.

Yes, he's allowed to have his own opinion on it, but he should make an educated opinion. Yes, he should see and experience many different things, but he should do so with a parental safety net.

 

Eh, the only thing I can really say is that I feel a lot of the posters here underestimate young teens just a bit. Of course you would want to supervise your kid on the first meet or two, but after that...? A young teen (13/14 and up) isn't the same as a ten-year-old. I'm not saying you shouldn't be careful, but some posters here are being a bit silly. We have cell phones and we know how to use them. To an extent, we can take care of ourselves. We're young adults, not little kids.

Also--If you don't think your (hypothetical or not) young teen doesn't know about yaoi (especially in this hobby!) and other adult things, and doesn't use choice language when hanging out with peers, you've got another thing coming. That kind of stuff is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid once you hit high school, at the latest. Most of the time, middle school is full of it too. You would have to lock yourself in a box and live there for the rest of your life to not know plenty about sex, homosexuals, and bad language at 14 years old. That is not really the issue, it's more the whole internet predator paranoia, which is blown WAY out of proportion, but nonetheless is real in rare cases. Which can be avoided be supervising just the first few meets.

After that, the whole legal liability thing... well, let's just say it's really not likely that a 13/14 year old would wound themselves badly enough to need to go to the ER (and press legal charges after...?), barring any serious medical conditions I guess. I personally don't think that's enough to say they can't come, imho of course. A young teen will do other stuff by themselves just the same, anyway.

Anyway, adults can be both good and bad influences, but so can teens, and there are more stupid teens out there than stupid adults. XD

As for younger kids, I think they definitely need to be supervised. That's all.

 

Personally, I've always had older friends...on average I'd say about ten years older than I am. I don't think there's anything wrong with young people getting in on the hobby and having older friends and vs. versa. As long as everything stays age approiate. Ex. You have a twelve year old conversing with a thirty year old...you're not gonna talk about dolls in a more...intimate nature.

Now in regards to meet ups, If I was a parent of a child in this hobby, I would come with them to the meet up or having someone I trust take my child to the meet up just in case. We actually have a girl on our boards here in Newfoundland who's younger than most of us and yet she's really been fun to chat with and we're all thinking of doing a meet up in the summer. At Tim Horton's of course, not someone's house, but Tim's is great. Public area where we can all sit around and chat about dolls and where we live if something started to happen, I'm sure other adults in the area would react.... or at least I hope they would.

I'm not sure if any of that was clear. I think I'm getting sick and so my brain is now starting to go, but bottom line, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

 

To tell the truth I've been a lot more comfortable hanging with people older than I am. It's only been now that I've felt comfortable hanging with people my own age. I've always been into hobbies that don't exactly translate very well in a small town.

how would you feel to know that your kids are hanging out with much older people from the hobby to play with dolls? It wouldn't bother me, when I eventually have kids, becuase for the first few meets I would accompany my child until I felt that the people hosting them and around them were responsible adults or responsible people in general.

And as a much younger doll owner, how do you feel when you meet much older people from the hobby? Doesn't bother me. Each age group has something different and a unique aspect to bring to a conversation. Some things I can only share with those older than me so I honestly enjoy it.

Was there ever something that bothered you about it? Not really.

And what are the things that you like about it? Everything.

 

*sigh*

A young teen is the same as a ten-year-old in a lot of respects, including the most important one -- the eyes of the law. I think you're missing entirely the fact that a lot of posters here -- possibly the ones that you consider 'silly' -- are thinking in terms of legal liability. I don't really care if you have a cell phone and know how to use it. That doesn't change the fact that if something happens to you while you're at a meet I'm at, I could conceivably be held responsible for it (and don't even say 'nothing will happen' because that's bull pucky and we all know it). I do not want responsibility for anybody else's child. Period. If an unattended minor showed up at a meet I was at without prior announcement, I would get really pissed off because I don't particularly like having responsibility shoved on me without my permission...especially when it's responsibility involving children. It does not matter if you think it's "really not likely" that something serious could happen; the fact is that it can still happen and thinking otherwise is foolhardy. vonbonbon's post illustrates precisely why this is a big issue.

Additionally, I wouldn't be rude enough to foist that same responsibility off on others when it comes to my own child. If my daughter wanted to go to a meet? I'd go with her. There is not a chance in hell that I would allow my daughter to run off on her own with a bunch of older people she met on the internet. I do not give a flying rat's ass if she thinks she can take care of herself. I don't trust strangers to take care of her if something goes wrong, and I know damn well that I would jump all over any adult in my daughter's presence if she was there on her own and something went wrong. Why in the name of god would I willingly open myself up to that kind of thing?

In a nutshell -- the age range isn't a bad thing. It's great that people of all ages and all backgrounds can bond over something as neat as dolls. HOWEVER, there are some huge legal minefields when it comes to the under-18 segment of the hobby, and I really wish that some of the younger members of the hobby understood this and recognized that for some of us adults, it's so much less how old you are and so much more how your age impacts us at meetups/in MP transactions/etc. We're not 'silly'. We're practical, and we're covering our own asses.

 

Discovering yaoi through this hobby? Oh, honey*, I didn't need any outside influence to discover yaoi. All I needed was my own unshakable belief that Sam Gamgee loved Mr. Frodo. This was way before the movie. I wasn't even ten years old. I knew about boys' love before I knew what sex was, and kids definitely hear about sex from their peers before most adults think they're ready to learn about it.

=^__^=
Anneko

*Honestly, I don't know who I'm referring to when I say 'oh, honey'...

 

I agree with this statement. In the course of my work I have been present when teens have gone into anaphylactic shock, had seizures, lost their passports in a foreign country, gotten lost in the wilderness for over 13 hours, and been taken into police questioning because they were mistaken for another teen who committed a criminal act. I can assure you that all of those things you think "will never happen" absolutely do happen -- and they almost always happen to the minors who are the most confident that it will never be an issue for them.

 

I'm afraid at 13-14 you are a lot more like 10yr old kids than "young adults". Young adult typically denotes some one between the ages of 18 (or age of consent in your state) and 21. Legally an adult but not old enough to drink. This may vary in other countries. Before that you are a pre-teen or teenager. You may have a cell phone and may be capable of handling things, but you are still a teenager and still the legal responsibility of an adult guardian. There is no reason a teen or even a child cannot have older friends, but some reasonable parental supervision is needed. No one is saying teens shouldn't attend meet ups and associate with the other members regardless of age, but some thought should be put into it. From the perspective of a parent, a meet in a large public place is safer, as long as the teen in question is familiar with the location, but it is only reasonable that you would attend at least a few meets with your child to get to know the other members before allowing them to attend alone. If my child was going to a meet up in a private residence I would want to be very familiar with at least one other member attending who agreed to at least watch out for my kid, and I would want to talk to the home owner first as well. I can understand why a home owner would not want my unattended child in their home. From the perspective of an adult attending the meets, I don't mind associating with teens. I am kind of in the middle age wise in our local group and I get along with people both older and younger than myself. However when I open my home for meets I prefer that parents accompany their teens. Do I think something is going to happen? Probably not, but if it does I will be responsible. I do not want a parent calling me screaming because of something their child was exposed to in my home. Now if this was a teen I knew well from other meets and I had discussed the situation ahead of time with the parents I would probably change my opinion. It isn't about teens not having older friends, it is the difference between friends and acquaintances. You may think these things could never happen, but they can and frequently do.

I cannot say what I will and will not be comfortable with my own children doing in the future. My oldest is only 8 now, and he is autistic so he can't do many of the things other kids do. He will probably have to be older than most before he can go out on his own. These are things I won't know until we get there. However I would not be comfortable sending my child out alone to meet a group of people I didn't know, nor would I be comfortable putting the responsibility of watching my child on an unknown adult. That is what responsible parenting is about.

As for concerns about what my kids will be exposed to. I'm honestly not concerned. I don't censor much at all. We are an incredibly open family. I curse, and I know my kids have picked those words up. I talk to them in an age appropriate manner about sex. They are very aware of what homosexuality is. My best friend was gay, he died when my oldest son was a baby but I have pictures of Uncle Scott around and I talk about him all of the time. They do not know exactly what yaoi is yet but they know of it. I have a bookcase full of it in our library but I don't let them read it yet. They wouldn't be interested anyway though they both love manga. For my birthday hubby was asking our youngest son (who is 4) what they should buy me. My son said "Mommy gets chocolate, dolls and yaoi for her Birthday!!" Obviously I have very little fear of what they will be exposed to, and whatever it is we can discuss it together. My concerns are for their safety and that they continue to enjoy whatever hobby they may happen to be in. I know a bad experience with a hobby group can really sour your feelings for your hobby when you are just starting out.

 

As an addition to what Tez and iris0110 have said:

It wasn't all that long ago that I was a teenager, and I remember pretty well what it was like. I've always gotten along well with and been able to carry my own in conversation with much older people, and many people commented that I was mature for my age or mistook me for several years older after rather lengthy conversations (and in one case talking almost daily for the better part of the year) as young as 13 or 14. I was pretty good at thinking fast and had a healthy suspicion around strange people and situations.

Would I, as a parent, have allowed myself at that age to go to a meet of people I knew from the internet alone?

Absolutely not.

There is a huge difference between knowing how to use a cell phone and being mature enough to save up your money (an example other people have cited) and being able to handle yourself in a dangerous situation or an emergency. There's also the (sad, but all too true) fact that kids are easy targets, and most people into BJDs are girls (the more common target), so in a public place, there is that danger, more so than with an adult, especially if the child doesn't feel that they "fit in" and isn't socializing quite so much. Most adults don't know how to defend themselves and don't react as quickly in an emergency as they perhaps should, let alone teens/kids.

Also, while a 13 year old may know about sex and yaoi and all that, I don't want them having explicit conversations about the subject matters with adults they do not know.

Maturity is really relative. I have a friend who is two years younger than me. We've always gotten on great, and throughout high school I was impressed with how mature she was and how well she handled herself with older people. After spending a year living on my own, paying my own bills and totally fending for myself in a new city, she seemed a lot more naive than she had before. A mature teen is not necessarily as mature as a adult, though of course there are plenty of very immature adults as well.

 

I don't care how mature someone thinks they are, I am not going to be put into situations where I could be legally liable for them and their actions. Either a parent stays or the group gets a thoroughly spelled out, signed and sealed release form, period. I'm not going to court because someone got their knickers in a knot over Precious getting hurt using tools or restringing dolls during a workday meet. I'm also not standing in the cold waiting for her parents to remember they dumped her off at a meet-up with no other way home. Realizing, of course, that if I took her home myself that the potential ugliness were we to get in an accident is enough to make my head spin. A minor, riding in my car, without parental permission; I could be arrested and bankrupt, possibly both, and my insurance would likely drop me like a hot potato.

Silly? Honestly, that attitude alone suggests you're not nearly as mature as you claim.

 

*snort* Yeah, so did not need the help of these dolls to discover Slash. I just needed my mother She hands me a fanfiction she 'mom proofed' for my brother about Smallville and also gave me a gen fic for Jack and Daniel from SG-1 and the rest is history. I read the mom-proofed version and then when visiting her, I was curious as to what the original was like and so she gave that to me. And the gen story had a sequel that was slash and so I went and tracked that down. I was twelve

Oh, and for the record, if I'd asked, mom would have given me the original to begin with. I didn't know it was slash until she mentioned that she had to take some stuff out for my brother to read it. The Identical series by Lanning Cook is made of Win!

But I will say that one of the reason I got into BJDs is because of slash. My friend Sirius53black has two dolls, a DZ Hid she named Kurogane and a MNF Ruth she named Fai...and yeah, they are so together. So, seeing that, I then wanted my own Kirk and Spock I own Spock now...we're just waiting for Kirk to get here.

Do I mind talking about this with younger people...or older people for that matter? Not really. I don't see the difference between homo relationships and hetero...it's all love to me. Plus I started ready slash and...yeah, very mature fanfiction at the age of twelve, so I really can't say 'No, don't tell the young ones' considering I was a young one

 

Still, it seems a little extreme to ban somebody from coming along just because of their age. Part of this hobby (to me) is about reaching out and sharing your interests with others. Especially in an area that doesn't know BJDs from Barbies. Our Omaha group has members from all age ranges. However, there are very clear instructions specifying how this group runs. We consider it to be a "PG-13 group". Parents are strongly encouraged to accompany their kids.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested banning all young hobbyists from meet-ups. I have only noticed people insisting that minors be accompanied by a parent or guardian.

 

Cinnasmum, I actually quite liked your explanation of your experiences as a younger enthusiast. You are quite realistic regarding your age, and I respect that. foxdragon, also, I quite agree with your statements.

Before I was eighteen, I accepted it as a matter of due course that I would rely on parental supervision and guidance. I was not an adult yet, in any sense. If I went out to a large gathering, such as a convention, I was generally accompanied by my sister or parent (I thought nothing of this, as I enjoyed being in the company of my sister and parents), but I believe I honestly would have been a liability otherwise. I would not want to be another person's "responsibility," and would never want to inflict that type of "babysitter" mentality on another person. Why immediately strain a relationship?

I will agree that listening to my mother lecture me with, "You simply don't have the experience," was a bitter pill to swallow, but you cannot deny its importance. Considering driving. Yes, you may be quite intelligent, and understand perfectly the mechanics of how to drive a car, know all the laws - but you still cannot be considered a capable driver, until you have actually experienced driving and proven yourself in certain situations. Perhaps when you first began, you could be considered a "good driver" for your level of experience, but compare that to two years after driving, after experiencing the actual situations - there is a huge, undeniable difference.

You may be quite intelligent, but how do you know how to conduct yourself in a situation, if you have never been confronted with that certain situation? How can you understand about living on your own, or paying your own expenses, or even encountering terribly painful experiences, without actually having experienced it? Yes, there can be a distant comprehension, but not a true understanding - and that understanding comes with experience, which often correlates with age.

I still do not feel like an adult, honestly, even though I'm recognized as such by the law, and am currently living on my own. To be honest, I'd rather not! There is a playfulness in my life and this hobby, which I cherish. There is a difference between according yourself with a semblance of dignity, and casually stating and maintaining that you are "mature," and expecting those words to be taken as truth, without establishing a basis for it.

I agree with Lizzard's comment; there are quite a few collectors who, though younger, assume they are quite mature for their age. I dislike the statement of these assumptions. True maturity does not require you to say, "I'm mature for my age," to offer it as proof. They are essentially empty words. The true test of this so-called "maturity" is in how well you express yourself and how well you hold yourself and act. Even then, as others have said, despite how mature and adult-like a minor is, a minor is not recognized as liable for their actions until they have reached a certain age. That liability naturally transfers to that minor's accompanying adults. Accepting that, instead of arguing that you are capable of handling yourself, is a much more positive inidicator of your future behavior, in my opinion. It is not a persecution of younger enthusiasts, but a simple statement of fact, and taking the necessary precautions in light of the law is simply a good idea for all those involved.

Personally, I would pity those who honestly are "mature for their years." I've read of child geniuses graduating from college in their very early teens, but they would not have had the same experience, as they would be limited by their age and emotional development, even if not limited by their intellectual ability. If you cannot legally do the same types of things as your "older" friends can, due to your age, such as drinking in a public setting, or entering bars, or any type of age-restricted activity, there IS a disconnect. We live in a society where age is used to determine restrictions. Accepting that is the first sign of actual maturity.

Edit: Apologies for the long-winded post!

 

Yeah, all that would really have to suck... I remember reading one of those stories when I was a kid, and my reaction went from 'that's so cool' to 'oh, dude, no!' pretty quickly.

=^__^=
Anneko

 

THIS absolutely.

Having hosted many many meet ups, let me convey an incident that happened at my second meet. These are at my home. I have a large house and these meets are anywhere from 20 - 35 people.
I was new to the hobby and was still meeting people. Almost everyone who came to my house was 30 or older. The majority were women in their 40's like me but a few were younger 20-ish collectors.

As the afternoon progressed I realized there was some growing tension about a guest who was dressed in lolita. (handling dolls without permission, pulling boy pants down,etc.) She was young but she was taller than me and then she mentioned her mom was sitting in the car outside. I figured she just didn't have a car of her own and got a ride so I invited her mom in.
Mom stayed about 10 minutes...I was busy hosting when she left. Later as the party was breaking up this same girl said she needed to call her dad for a ride.......ok.....45 min later he knocked on the door. She left.

THEN I find out from another guest, she was 13 years old ! ! !

THIRTEEN yall ! ! ! Her parents left unsupervised her at a strange home with 20 people they never met for an entire afternoon.
Her immaturity and conduct aside...she was THIRTEEN ! ! ! I swear to you...she looked MUCH older because of her size. Her mom never even planned to come in and meet me. And when I did meet her she never told me her daughter was only 13...THEN didn't say anything to me when she left, like "My baby is only thirteen do you mind if she stays here without me?"

I don't care how mature you or your parents think you are, you never know what can happen and I have no illusions that in this
sue-happy society, that if she had been hurt, left on her own and gotten lost, been abused in any way by another guest, that *I* would have been held responsible. I am NOT a babysitter...and my guests should not be subjected to the unsupervised conduct of any child.

I now have some rules for my meet ups because of this incident.
Does the age gap bother me?
Yep.
But it has nothing to do with the dolls, behavior, maturity or the years between the ages.
It has everything to do with responsibility and liability.
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Quilibet, thank you! I really like your driving analogy. It's true- someone can feel like they have an adequate understanding of a situation, but until they experience it, they can't really know all that it entails.

Ah, I have a genius friend. I think she's about 14 now, and she's graduating highschool this year. While she has an air of maturity, I know that her experience doesn't compare at all to college life. I really hope that she decides to stay in school (despite finishing her 12th grade courses) because I don't want her to miss out on all of the great highschool experiences she hasn't had yet.

 

And with all the mentions of young people who are geniuses or prodigies, I really, really need to say this, because it cannot be overstressed-- maturity and intelligence are NOT THE SAME THING.

They may frequently go hand-in-hand, but not always. Many people with developmental disorders that affect their maturity in terms of either naivete, ability to function in the real world, or both, happen to be extremely intelligent. You might meet and talk to someone like this and assume that they are very mature, someone who at age thirteen or so could engage in intellectual discourse on par with an adult, but who as a legal adult might make decisions on the level of a thirteen year old.

Okay, /rant. TL;DR, maturity and intelligence may be vastly disparate.

=^__^=
Anneko