The consequences of copied dolls

well said taco.

People care because:
1. it's wrong (ethically and legally) to profit from someone else's intellectual property
2. it's wrong (ethically and legally) to pass off a fake as the real thing
3. it causes suspicion in the marketplace, particularly if there's no obvious way of telling from photos (or even possibly in person without a direct side by side comparison) and the possibility exists that buyers would be over-paying for an inferior product

I've seen several claims in this thread that the knock-offs are bad for health. Can anyone provide specifics (ie, somethign more than mere speculation)? I was under the impression that cured resin is perfectly safe - that only the dust from sanding, or the liquid (uncured) form of resin pose health risks. Please, to those making these claims, elaborate and cite facts?

 

I think the health issue comes from the dolls out of China, during the lead-scare earlier in the year with the toys coming out of China with too much lead in them.

I'm sure there could be all kinds of hazardous material that could mix into the resin and leak out over time from companies that just did not care. Companies that care enough to create their own sculpts, no matter where they are based, can be trusted a lot easier.

 

that's my point - it's just speculation and unfounded accusations!
The lead issue is completely irrwelevant as that is in paint and these are not painted. "hazardous material" may or may not be present. Just because these are coming from China does not implicate them for hazardous materials. Those claims were also made about legit chinese doll companies when they first came on the scene. So far, not proven to be true.

 

This isn't about unfounded accusations, this is about being cautious, which is never a bad thing. Blindly buying knock off products made out of unknown materials is foolish. No matter where they are from, if they are cheaply made pirated resin dolls it's a pretty reckless thing to purchase. You have no idea what went into it. You brought up it only being the paint that had lead in it, but that's not the specific concern. It's what regulations and standards are in place, what company is going to stand behind this product and be liable for what they are putting out. How about those pet food products? Paint isn't the only loosely regulated item coming from another country. I'm certainly not knocking China, but you have to be very careful about purchasing things that do not have a company and it's reputation backing it or accountable.

How about the dangers of epoxy resins (not just inhaling but skin contact) from a government site?
http://www.dhs.ca.gov/OHB/HESIS/epoxy.htm#HOW_DO_EPOXIES_ENTER_AND_AFFECT_YOUR_BODY

If you are dealing with an unscrupulous business pirating dolls, do you think they are worrying about your safety and using the proper resins? Now I believe there are isocyanates in the casting resin for dolls. The reactivity of isocyanates makes them harmful to living tissue. They are toxic and are known to cause asthma in humans, both through inhalation exposure and dermal contact.

Resin isn't something to be all cavalier about.

 

Non-legitimate companies care more about instant profit and less about their customers, regardless of whether these companies are based in Asia or not. I've heard nothing but good things about the legitimate Chinese companies, but since health and safety requirements differ vastly between the east and the west, I wouldn't be surprised that there were concerns!

By the time your doll arrives home and you discover there have been dangerous additives in the resin, the company already has your hard-earned money and might have dissolved that company name and set up trading again under another name. That's how slippery these criminals are...and they are all the same all over the world. Building a reputation is not what they are about, making a quick buck is.

Lead additive isn't the only dangerous thing that can be added to paint or resin, if your request a face up for your doll lead might be present in that paint. If there haven't been any toxic additives, the resin was probably not cast with the same care as legitimate dolls, there have been evidence of poor quality dolls cast with sawdust in the resin or else full of flaws and air bubbles. Either way if you buy knowingly or unknowingly from an unscrupulous source, you could end up with a poisonous doll or a dreadful quality doll and regardless of those factors it will be an illegitimate rip-off.

 

The lead hazard is irrelevent--I doubt resin + lead would be something that would cure anywhere near right enough to form a doll.

However, the issues with hazardous fillers in the resin came up before the lead scare. When Forever Doll was still in operation, some people had severe reactions to them (or so I have read). I believe that this is where the concern of unhealthy resin comes from. The issue is not whether a doll comes from China (or it shouldn't be--there are some fab Chinese companies out there now), but the scruples of the people manufacturing them. Are the folks who are bootlegging dolls to make a quick buck trustworthy? I don't know what the bootlegs on the market are like in terms of resin, but quality is a valid concern. I personally wouldn't bet my health on them.

 

i think i'd be more worried about the ethics of the company that copies than anything.
if they copied a doll, i'd be wary of them. what else would they do, you know?

 

I recently saw some copies for sale and i got really angry because i thought everyone would research abjd before buying their 1st one tho recently i realised it's not the case. I know a few people, one being my friend, who doesn't know anything about bjd and she is buying one relying completely on my knowledge. If she went of her own she wouldn't know the difference between a copy and an original.

Buy I don't think the abjd market would be affected. The community is very against it and many (if not the majoty) can tell a recast from the original, doesn't matter how similar they are, they still have differences in resin tone and quality and how well they are detailed. People buying copies because they don't want to spend too much money on the mold they like will become totally outcasts. Those who bought it by mistake will learn a lesson and not do it again.

 

Just wanted to answer the debate question ...

I believe that the long term effects would be that the 'outcasts' create their own communities. Some just do not care about owning the legitimate product or whether they would be accepted in certain circles. And companies making them will keep doing so as long as there is a market for them. Not much can be done about it.

Basically, selfish reasons would keep recasts/copies around for a long while.

For me, it doesn't matter if the companies turn 'legitimate' in the future. They are not innocent and are aware of what they are doing. The money they used to build their company would have been obtained by dirty means. It is unfair to the companies that have worked hard to get to where they are today.

The only thing that can be done is to not support copies and in doing so we support the artists work as well.

 

bootlegs happen for most products, but bootleg dolls scares me. i mean, i don't care so much for copied CDs or DVDs or cheap knock-off brand clothing but a recast of a doll? that's kind of creepy to be for some reason

i think it is very clever, even if it is wrong, to copy something like that. i was always fascinated by fakie pokemon cards when i was younger. i still collect pokemon cards and i can tell a fake a mile away, no matter how fantastically alike the fake is. some people are like that with dolls, i know.

it doesn't necessarily make the dolls bad, i mean, it wasn't the doll's fault they're a fake. i wouldn't bin the doll because it was a fake; i think i would feel sorry for it. the main people who would suffer from the bootlegging would be the companies.

 

This thread was started because of the Lolidoll knockoffs that are still up on ebay.
As of right now, they have had three successful sales of their knock-off dolls (that we can see with feedback). I know that all three buyers have already been contacted by at least one person on this site.

So what are their consequences? Yes, they have all knowingly bought knock-off dolls. They saved cash, and should they be on DoA, they will likely post their pics of the dolls labeled as the real thing (as fakes cannot be legitimately posted).

Since the topic of this thread is about the consequences of copied dolls, I do wonder if there really are any huge ones, besides the buyer having to lie as long as they own it. The company doesn't seem to receive any consequences (other than spam mail) -- they're still in business after all, and surely they do not have any shame of stealing other's work.

The buyers seem content, and posted good feedback for the fakes. I would have to wonder, if after some time, there was any effects at all? Such as, was the resin dust safe, or did the buyers end up risking their health? Was the resin quality alright, or are their dolls already breaking? I suppose those would be questions to pose to the buyers themselves, but I'm sure they've been bothered by it enough already.

To sum this up, this was a pretty big topic, and knock-offs can raise a lot of strong emotions in people, but copies will always be around and people who feel entitled to getting them will still buy them. As for the consequences? Realistically, and possibly in this case, there's no major lasting effects other than getting people stirred up.

 

They're still on eBay? Bit disgraceful really.
Death can (should be) be the only option

 

Well . . . Rainman, the sculptor of Elfdoll, is seriously concerned about lasting effects, because his name has been stolen and attached to at least some of the copies. (See the thread about this in the News forum.)

For those who created the original dolls that are now being copied, I believe there are most definitely real things to worry about, ranging from loss of sales of the original product to loss of professional reputation. If--no, when, because the knockoff sales are happening and will probably continue to happen--the copies are believed by consumers to be accurate examples of the original maker's work, I think that will have a real effect on the good name of the original companies. And that matters to them. It matters to all companies, large as well as small.

I have a thought experiment in mind here. Don't y'all suppose it might be a good idea to try thinking about the original dollmakers' creative, technological, and financial investments as important parts of the BJD hobby? I believe that those investments are important to those of us who buy the dolls, not just to the makers themselves. Yes, without buyers, there is no hobby . . . but I believe that, without original, innovative dollmakers who keep inventing new body styles, new headmolds, and new concepts for BJDs, there is no hobby, either. If knockoffs affect either the original companies' business or reputation--or both--then why should the original companies keep plugging away in a consumer climate that doesn't reward their originality and innovation?

So, the way I see it, to a very real extent the original companies' (and I use that term loosely--for example, ShinyDoll is a company, even though, as we all know, it's a one-person operation) self-interest is also my own self-interest. And so the sale and purchase of knockoffs, because it injures the original companies, also hurts me.

 

Yeah, I can understand the lasting effects of this on the makers. They too would suffer the consequences, though they're not at fault.

I would say that identity stealing is a bit more drastic than simply copying a design as well, as that could clearly have long-lasting reputation effects. I realize too, that because of this sort of behavior, future doll-making companies may decide to have more limited edition type dolls to avoid having copies sold. That would affect consumers as well so...

I suppose that most of the consequences discussed here (for buyer, maker, and copier) wouldn't be immediate but long lasting.

 

Agreeing with Cynthia, I think it has an especially bad impact on small companies such as Elfdoll.

The larger companies, like Volks or Luts, may be able to weather this sort of rip-off, or even sue the makers.

Ms Cholong has said that Rainman cannot bring proceedings against Lolidoll because they are in China and he is in Korea.

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Volks managed to successfully sue and stop production of Forever Dolls, which were an early rip-off made in China - but of course they may have different laws in Japan that enabled them to pursue the company.

However, even if Rainman had the power to sue Lolidoll for breach of copyright, it would cost him an awful lot in fees.

I suppose as a creative person I feel quite strongly about this.

 

It is sad and dreadful. A small company has to work very hard to succeed and maintain. It not only hurts the business, all the employees, but also all of the supporters of lovers of that business. AnnMarie

 

Since the issue has been brought up, can anyone read Chinese? They seem to be claiming these forms prove their dolls are non-toxic. Though of course even if it does say that they are made of safe products, they could well have sent the original to be tested. They also are most likely to be full of bubbles, a company like that probably sells miscasts without a thought.




For the price of these fakes a person could easily get an original doll from one of the reputable lower priced companies.

 

(Quoted from a different thread on the Buying/Shipping Qs and Advice category)

There's also a few other comments on there about the safety of the resin, but it was brought up that they may have used another company's resin for the testing rather than handing over their own. Because they're already using fakes (fake dolls, fake names and even a fake logo -- They copied the Disney logo on their main site! ) I really can't bring myself to trust anything they use or say for evidence. X.x

 

I am in agreement with pretty much every one who said this:
It's wrong. Just wrong.

That said...Bootlegging and copying is something that has been around as long as there have been products to sell and markets to sell to. It's unavoidable, and unchangeable, there will ALWAYS be those who copy and sell those copies for profit, uncaring about any of the things that make the original products what they are.

And there will always be those who buy them. It hurts all parties involved, save the bootleggers, who make money off of immoral, illegal and illegitimate businesses.

And its true! For the price of some of these lesser quality rip-offs, you can get a doll thats legit from a cheaper reputable company! For example, instead of buying a ripped off Volks, why not look at the Abio Angel or Doll Zone dolls, which are not nearly as expensive, but still very very nice!

Or save up. If you want the doll so bad you're shelling out for a fake, save yourself the trouble of the stigma, and the stress of lying, and just SAVE UP for the real deal like the rest of us do.

And never buy secondhand with out seeing a picture atleast...Really! If the picture is unduely small/blurry/dark, request that they take one in better light and try to hold it steadier! If they want your business, they shouldnt be to averse to doing this for you...

Really, its horrible that this happens, but bootlegging is inevitable. All we can do is do our best to maintain that it is WRONG and will NOT be tolerated. At the very least it will cause unease for the knowing owners of bootlegs and those intending to buy them.

For those saying we are elitist because of this: No, we have standards and respect the time and effort put into the dolls we all love, and are disgusted with the lazy "turn-a-quick-buck" bootleggers who, instead of honestly attempting to make their own moulds, are preying on the uneducated and effectively stealing those dolls we love from the makers we respect.

One day, the buyers of these bootlegs probably WILL just make their own communities, and angst about how we "dolly elitists" shun them. Lets just hope the futur doesnt get TOO messy....I may not like the bootlegs and people who KNOWINGLY buy them (because the people who didnt know, or werent educated about them are being swindled. I cant get angry at people who didnt know any better..) but I still dont want witchhunts happening.