The consequences of copied dolls

It's mildly interesting but the French copyright and other rights law is much more extensive and stronger protection than the US. It seems likely to have the most impact on eBay's business operations in France or possibly in Europe generally.
Furthermore, France is primarily concerned about protecting French brands that French companies make a lot of money off of. I doubt you'd get the same kind of reaction to a copyright or other rights violation involving a brand or a work from some other country.

 

I am new to this ball jointed doll business and I really cannot believe that copying goes on to be honest even seeing a picture I do not know if I could tell the difference and that is scary to me I spend the money only to find that it is fake down the road! How would I feel after bonding with my doll to know that essentially it is stolen property? I shudder to think of it. I am all for those of you who make their own dolls to take elements of dolls you love into your own work as that is a sign of respect but just to steal? and deceive? bad bad thought

 

Personally, I find the faux handbag analogy to be entirely accurate comparison, yet there are differences.

Let me start with another example of highly marketable art: the dresses we see actresses wearing at the Ocars. These are one-of-a-kind works of art from designers that work very hard to get attention from them. The month following the unveiling of these designs, knock-offs appear at Macys, Nordstroms, and other department stores. Yet this is entirely accepted, even in the well-policed US market. The difference though, is that there is always some obvious change. The original was one-of-a-kind, so every shopper KNOWS it's a knock-off, and everyone who sees it can easily tell the design or the fabric is different. It is advertised as an "affordable version" of what the stars are wearing.
Now with Coach purses etc, there are also hundreds of knock-off brands. But the patterns used will also have an obvious difference. Rather than the tell-tale repeating C pattern, there will be Gs or Ds or Ws or whatever. Everyone who sees these knows it's a knock-off, clear as day. We all know what the original was, and we all know what the copy is. No one is getting duped by this trade.

Now, take the concept of these bootleg dolls. There are some serious issues that make this MUCH shadier.
First, unlike the dresses at the oscars, the original dolls are not usually one-of-a-kind. They are either sold as a limited edition, like an art print would be, or are an openly available model. They are often being sold at the same time as the copy, meaning the original could be obtained at a similar price to the knock-off. (usually doll knock-offs are only about 50% cheaper than the original anyhow. Compare that to the ridiculously high difference with designer clothing!)
Second, the new company is calling this model their own. Few know what the original is, and it is not being sold as a copy at all. It is being taken as its own new sculpt. That is plagerism. It is illegal, as well as simply being unethical to anyone who cares about the original art behind this hoby.

I personally would never want a bootleg doll. There are too many chances it will not be up to the quality standard of the original, and I rather like having something that holds up as excellent quality. Further, I am an amateur artist and I know I would feel extemely hurt to see someone else taking my art and making money with it, when I got none of the credit.
If, however, bootlegs in this hobby were going to be accepted as a free-market extreme, I think it would be important for the copying company to change something on the doll to make the copy identifiable, and then to sell this as a "Copy inspired by volk's new limited" or something of that sort. This would blur the line of ethical/unethical enough that it might get by. But as the copying stands at this point, I don't think anyone can very well argue that these bootlegs are ethical or acceptable on any level.

 

If you couldn't spot the doll as a fake from the way it looks, isn't there normally a difference in the way the resin feels?

 

I buy loads off ebay, clothes, wigs eyes etc. I've always used ebay as a means to get things I cant get otherwise, or can get cheaper. If I hadn't of known Anntagonist or been on den of angels, I may of ended up buying a 'copy' or a 'knock off' just because I didn't know any better. Then when the time came when I finally join DOA, by the sounds of it, it would of been spotted, would of then been an outcast here, just because I bought a knock off doll without knowing?
There would be no resale value then, because no one else would want. I'd be forced to put said doll back on ebay and resale again.
Its bad to copy the dolls I agree with that in full. Whole heartedly I really do, but what if you buy without knowing?

 

Hi Syryn, actually there has been a thread started in the debate forum just about what you mention- what if you bought a knock-off dolly by accident?

 

Eep sorry :3 I just started reading this thread and felt the need to ask.
I'll copy the question over. >.<
Lol I always feel like a newb

 

sorry if this has been asked already but how do you tell a fake from the real thing ie on ebay, if it's your first doll, in order to prevent buying a bootlegged dolly?

 

Further pursuant to the Tiffany v. eBay business, the US case was decided last month in eBay's favor. (I'm not particularly surprised.) Note that this was only a trademark law decision and not clear what would happen if the same type of case was brought based on copyright law in the US. There is a pretty good discussion and analysis of the opinion on the National Law Journal site here:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202423571347

 

This conversation is being very ambiguous about the term "knockoff". If we're talking about purses, one can either be referring to
a) a cheaper version in a similar style
b) a counterfeit, which is made to look exactly like a brand name and has the brand name on it but was not really made by the company.

Copied dolls are an example of B. They are in no way like buying a cheaper but legit handbag at Mervyn's. Even if the doll is sold under a different brand name, but copied.

I buy gashapon toys sometimes but I would never order from Ebay or any place that sells out of China, because I have no way of knowing whether the toys are legit. So even if there is a legit seller on Ebay, he will not get my business. I also occasionally hear of noobs buying this way and only figuring out once the toys arrive, or are compared to legit toys, that they are counterfeits. It makes everyone more wary. Collectors are much more cautious about where to get the toys from. And of course it defrauds the company of its profits and the buyer of being able to sell it as a legit item later on. It's a real poison to the small community feeling and confidence in the marketplace (in general, not just here).


Re: patents... I guess you can get a patent for a specific way of stringing or putting the doll together (shoulder cups, kips maybe?) but as far as individual sculpts, it would be a trademark issue. Trademarks are a whole different bag o' beans.

haha, in the My Little Pony community, there is a market for a generic brand knock-off pony who is orange with an open-mouth grin full of white teeth. They call her Princess Rinse 'n' Spit and she is very popular! XD At the point where the supply is limited, however, the product has usually ended production and is being sold second-hand, so if it makes you feel better, the original company isn't making any money and the fact that it's a knockoff/counterfeit is part of the attraction, not hidden.

 

Aggity - I think one issue with "knockoff' v. "counterfeit" when you are buying online is that you can't see the actual item, so people buying from a website or eBay or the Marketplace are incapable of making that distinction, and there's really not much of a distinction in the online context. Often you have to look at a knockoff purse fairly closely - open it up, check the materials, the stitching, etc. - to see the differences between the genuine item and the knockoff; same with a doll. You can't do that till you have the item in hand, and most of these dolls are not bought at a physical location where you can see the goods in advance, they're bought online. To make matters worse, people who buy a suspect item online often don't have a genuine article handy to compare the item to.

 

I think it is unfair to copy dolls because if the origonal doll was sold for a high price and the copier sells the copy for the same price your being ripped off. this is because your copied doll wont realy be worth as much!!

 

I confess that I haven't read all the posts, but there is one thing to take out of this discussion, ie, when buying second hand ask for proof. Meaning: original box, papers, receipts, arrival photos... something I will definitely do that if I ever buy a second hand doll, because I'd be devastated to find out that I had bought a copy (however "real" it looks), not to mention how upset I'd be for expending so much money on a copy

 

There are companies who are known copiers, so sometimes there's no doubt! And if you're buying a "Chanel" purse at 30% of retail off some guy on the street, I don't think that's a gray area either. But that's what my gashapon example was referring to: not feeling secure about buying from a third-party marketplace because of fear of buying a counterfeit.

 

Well personaly I wouldn't buy a knock off of another companys dolls because thats just plain theft.
But then again what about people who are new to this hobby and buy a doll without realising that it's a copy of a real doll just cheaper?
It has happend.


If anything to prevent this ( there isn't really a way)
Is just to make sure it has the name on the back of the head to proove authenticity.
But that's just me, I could never tell a fake from a real just by looking at them because some remakes are really good.
:/

 

My opinion on this is: of course one can make a recast of a certain doll model so that noone would notice.
Especially in bjd business when it's so popular among the community to mod their dolls.

The real issue is: money. People who make recasts, or any fake brand products, usually look for easy money. The materials are not right (cheap), the details are omitted, things are completly wrong etc. Those kinds of copies would be easily distinguished.
But there might be companies (people?) out there counting not on fast gain, but a longer term. Their copies would be made with care, with best materials possible. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Thankfully, it's more unlikely because as I said, those kind of people are way often into fast gain.

 

Aggity-I totally agree with your post

I limit where I make my doll purchases. I have unfortunately offended in the past with this comment but it is the truth. First, because I am concerned about purchasing a knock off doll or an illegitimate item. The result would not only be my own embarrassment and loss of money BUT that I would have accidentally undermined the artists who make this hobby so special. Craftsmanship and artistry are not a thing to be easily found in our current world of MASS production and I don't want to contribute to pulling the rug from under the original artists.

 

I personally rather buy straight from the company or from a reputable seller. Even when buying from the seller, i got in contat with the factory, just to make sure they had the seller's details, and that my order was going to be in good state.

 

I know with counterfeits there may be trouble with materials not being up to standards. The counterfeiters don't care about things like... lead based paint. They are just out to make a buck or two. If you are worried, it's best to buy from reputable buyers or directly from the company.

And people care... because people are artists too. And it very easily could be their own art that's being made copies. I don't know about my fellow artists, but I'm not really known yet. So someone pretending to be me or selling copies of something I made is like taking money away from me. I can't afford that. And it's frustrating. I mean, what's the point in making anything new when someone is just going to come along and steal it from you to make a profit for themselves?

That's why I gave up fanfic writing. At least I acknowledge that the characters were borrowed... they didn't even even bother to give me credit when they copied and pasted me word for word. If I stop writing not like they can release anything "new," right? Heh... That's why I made the transition to my own characters. Then I can use lawyers if need be.

 

It sounds like a matter of supply and demand, possibly with the addition of ignorance.
That said, I wonder how much demand there is for fake dolls.