The consequences of copied dolls

Who do knockoffs hurt most? Definately the doll owners.
We have to take a risk everytime we buy something 2nd hand on photos only (no you can't always tell just from photos and not everyone who buys a 2nd hand doll is going to already know that mold inside and out).

I'm a bit of a bag-fiend and I buy both counterfiets and 'real' bags, having seen them side to side you often really can't tell the difference even though the counterfeit might have cost just a 10th the price of the real one - because manufacturing bags in factories already geared up to sell bags is cheap and the originals are marked up disgustingly by the designer brands.
The trouble with dolls is you can't make them that much cheaper. It's a labour intensive 'cottage industry' process using relatively expensive materials and the dolls you buy direct from the manufacturer aren't making the ridiculous profit markups like desiger bags do. If a doll is sold significantly cheaper it means that corners must have been cut and that's no good for the buyers.

Also ANYTHING can be copied these days, literally anything so having the box and the paperwork and the headcap plate doesn't prove the doll isnt fake. I had a fake chloe paddington bag a few years back thet came with the chloe hologram label, dustbag and authentication leaflet just like the real one.
I don't think it's always wrong to knowingly buy a fake product, but in the case of dolls I just don't think they fake is going to be good enough quality to be worth it. buying a fake doll screws us all because it keeps the fakers going and makes us all take a risk when we buy 2nd hand.

And while I agree witch hunts and ostracising people who inadvetantly buy fakes is bad I think the doll owning community is the only way to keep on top of fakery and hopefully make it too infeasable to be an attraction to potential copiers. There's not much the doll manufacturers can do to prevent their dolls being copied when the sell them, it comes down to the vigilance of places like DoA.

 

I appreciate the harsh stance the community, in general, has regarding copies and recasts. But... sometimes, I think that the witch hunts result in innocent people being judged before their case was heard.

I buy direct from companies and have only ever bought one BJD off the secondary market (original in box with original paperwork, etc.). And this is how people can protect themselves - documentation. Frankly, I think it should be a requirement for selling dolls on the forum.

 

Well there is a way to certify these dolls, or at least the heads...microchipping. A microchip embedded in the head resin of the sort that is implanted in pets. I can see companies like Volks and Soom going in that direction.

 

Many consumer items are already getting RFID tags, I agree I could see the bigger companies easily going that way.

 

I have to wonder how much something like a microchip would cost though...o_0 It's already such an expensive hobby, I'd really rather not spend $100 extra on a chip that doesn't really enhance my doll in any way. If however, you could load it with info like a dog's chip it might be more useful.

 

Passive RFID-style chips are small and relatively inexpensive since they can be mass-produced. The only potential down-side would be all of us needing to invest in readers to access their ID data if we wanted to check them against company records.

 

When I originally saw this topic, I was just going to skim it quickly and be on my way- but when I actually took some time to read it, I realized that this is a really scary thing, especially for people like me who buy their dolls legitimately, but naked and blank from the company. The customization of my dolls (which includes modding) is one of the first ways in which I bond with them, and my favourite part of the hobby. None of my dolls have default clothing, only one has a wig that he came with, and not a single one has a default faceup because I like to do it myself, and make all the clothes by hand. So what then? If it gets to the point where I'd need these things to prove the truth about my dolls' origins, I'd be out of luck. I agree with what others have said, that hopefully if we all continue to shun knock offs and fakes, then we can keep the hobby relatively free of such things, but it still makes me worry.

 

1. The signature on my papersheets is written by HAND ... copy this (re-sign with another persons signature) means criminal impersonation ,none does this, date-serial number-name of sculptor signature is by hand, it is not printed it is WRITTEN by hand , this dear cannot be coppied if someone photocopy/scan/print this then those will be printed too not written... printed and the difference obvious believe me ... no some things cannot be coppied that's why paintings worth more than posters , a poster can never keep all elements of a painting ,end of story.
also Soom and some other companies have serial numbers and this can be also a measure as they know exactly how many casts must be arround
But paperwork definately helps you because a human person uses his/her hand and writes with a pen on it differenly from all those fashion companies who just print the paperwork.

Have you ever seen anyone copy the backhead marking , me no! never , why ? Because method copying bjd is not the one used to make fake money ... none will risk everything to make something exactly with markings and signatures, and never will because bjd are things and not money not € , not pounds so they must be sold to give the copier money back ... sold to a certain audience of the certain type of dolls ,who also likes this sculpt, and in lower price otherwise someone will take the original ... etc etc with all restrictions those bring... so no most things cannot be copied and pass unoticed (especially a hand-written signature on papersheet) ... and no the best counterfeiters in the world make fake money or other more profitable frauds than bjd copying , we are safe...
.... Please I even saw hysteria about microchip to secure sculpts in this thread ,it's hillarious such an overeaction (& ehhhmm microchip can coppied much easier than a bjd)
....Just calm down people backhead marks/boxes from the company and paperwork from the company secures truly ,it starts to become hillarious this insecurity.

2. PLUS
I don't care about bags etc & I can't see how so many people thinking of such flat things & compare them with sculpts , It seems to me all this more like a fashion victim hysteria than concern for an artist (with very few enlightening exceptions). None compared them with copying a music cd.
... for me , especially when the company is more a sculptors centered small company like dollshe or notdoll ,I take in "recast and then sell" like p.e. taking a quality diachronic music cd make it mp3 and sell it through a site.
... I feel a bit bittered because very little people used artistic examples & I say no, designing a bag is not art is manufacture that's why next year is thrown away as 'out of fashion' in opposite with art painting/music etc.
... it seems people here care more for clothes and fashion than music or arts in general and most people here just pretend an artistic self ... I'm not saying that to insult anyone but this thread speaks of itself. sorry

As about the theme no copies will not destroy anything not the artists, and nothing for people who want the sculpt in it's perfectness but for those who just want a luxury dolly to play and snob the ones who cannot buy those I don't know & don't care ... (for now as I see those dolls are mostly used like highly poseable luxury barbies,sorry!) ... I know that musicians who play quality diachronic music never died because of copies or mp3 because audience is always there for a musician or group of musicians who respects them and try to play especially quality resistand to time music... so as much as you see those sculpts as fashion/luxury toys they are in danger. I know of course quality diachronic music stands higher than sculpts of dolls, but If the audience sees them more as quality-unique sculpts or p.e. something like coin/stamps collection & like something diachronic & lasting and if the companies can be proved worthy of such a title in sculpture (inspired) and resin quality and in general as a philosophy , then they will be not in danger no matter how many copies will come.
This is my opinion

 

Not all some dolls are marked up and your paying for the name. Why do you think Volks are more expensive because you are paying for the name as well. Plus i have seen companies who start of low cost but as soon as they get more popular then they up the price. Keep the doll the same quality. So in a sense the companies are like designer labels, so if one is wrong they both are.

It would be really messed up if that happened. Because if you have bought from the company you shouldn't be punished for knock offs especailly since so many claim they can "just tell the difference" if that was the case then they would know if your doll was real or not.

I think it is no different really, and it depends how you see them hobby. I don't really care how much i a accepting in this hobby i like the dolls for my own enjoyment so in your argument it would be ok for me to by a fake. I wouldn't because i know there is a health risk with toxic resin.

But designer bags are no different to BJDs in a sense, because people who care about designer stuff tend to hang around with others who do the same really.

Plus i hate this argument about "cheap dolls" being not as good, i think a lot of people are so up Volks @$$ they don't see the fact they put the prices up to pay for the name, which they do. If people are willing to pay that then it is fine. But i have seen some cheaper dolls from real companies which are just as nice and are very well made. I think the base price off the dolls cost a lot, because of the work. But i think some companies add to that because they know people will pay it.

I do also think people can buy fakes not really knowing and i think it is bad enough that they find out they have spent all that money on a fake and then people have a go at them. By all means "name and shame" bad and companies that fake. But education in to the harms of fakes is better then saying your no longer welcome to our hobby. I think it is a bit dodgy when people know it is fake though.

And back to comparing designer dolls to designer bags, how do you think the designers of the bags feel when people fake them, i am sure it hurts because to them they have put hard work into designing the bag and it is an art in its own right too.

 

I haven't caught up with the whole thread yet, but from a business/artist standpoint, the sale of the copies is stealing from the original business/artist.

Friends of mine, several years ago (wow, long enough ago that what we all have as a decent home copier was a really expensive pro-printer) had a small business producing cross stitch patterns of their own art work.
People would buy the patterns, photocopy them and sell them!
Each copier, maybe made a few hundred dollars each, hardly significant.... but there were SOOOOooooo many people
doing this that it turned into a BIG loss for the artists running this small business.

People were also making things from the patterns and selling them in craft shows... HUNDREDS of people scattered across the country.

The artists made so little, and saw so much money going to the copiers, that they shut down their business.
No more art seen, published now, from ANY of the artists in that group. They felt so burned by the theft they
just didn't feel like sharing their art/designs with anyone anymore.

One of the artists recently moved cross country, she found a mess of kits she'd had stored away,
and put them up on EBAY, cross stitch kits OF HER OWN ARTWORK...
She got a cease and desist letter from one of the copiers, who claimed to hold the copyright to the art!
All the old anger at how their work was taken, and sold with no benefit to the artists came back...
even with a registered copyright, there isn't the money to get a lawyer to take it to court...
AND since no SINGLE copyist made significant money off the sales, taking the individuals to court would
cost more than the damages they'd win.

 

Of course the companies add to the price of the doll... it's called profit, and it's how businesses survive, all businesses. If they make no money at all because they sell their goods for exactly the cost of production, they may as well not be in business at all.

But the other thing to consider in the case of Volks, and I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread as well as any other that discusses the price of dolls, is the cost of labour.

Minimum wage in Japan is 618-739 yen an hour ($6.57-$7.86).
Minimum wage in South Korea is 4110 won an hour ($3.69).
Minimum wage in China is 2.69-4.66 renminbi an hour ($0.39-$0.68).

All wage references from Wikipedia, converted to USD by Google, so perhaps the information is not 100% accurate, but as accurate as Wikipedia is. Anyway, I'm sure you can notice the general trend, and compare it to the general trend of doll prices- namely that Japanese dolls tend to cost more than Korean dolls, which tend to cost more than Chinese dolls. Wages are only one way to compare costs, but the companies also have other costs of business which vary by location, such as renting or purchasing their offices, storefronts, etc. Part of what you are paying for when you buy a Volks doll is the company's profit, but a large part is simply the increased overhead costs of operating in Japan. Now, to be honest I don't know for sure where all of the companies actually cast their dolls. I've heard variously that Volks casts their own dolls in Japan or that they get them cast in China, but they still have to pay for all of the work which does get done in Japan!

I'm sure this has all been raised before (in fact, I think I've pointed this out before myself), but just because a Volks doll costs 3 times as much as a cheaper doll from China doesn't mean you're just paying for the name and Volks is just sucking up the entire difference in profit. And just because they are making a profit doesn't mean they gouging or overpriced. For the record, I don't have a Volks doll, I'm not a member of some "cult of Volks" with my head stuck up the company's metaphorical nether regions, and I find nothing wrong with legitimate Chinese dolls.

But bootlegs are a different matter entirely. I think it is always wrong to outright steal and profit on the works of another. Sure, like any other person I've bought things that are inspired by designer clothing and bags (because the way that the fashion industry works, pretty much everything is inspired by designer clothing and filtered down to the mass market) and technically all of my dolls are inspired by Volks (because they were the first company to make modern ABJDs, and all of the other resin ABJD companies are, to an extent, basing their products on Volks' original manifestation of the idea). But I have never knowingly bought an actual bootleg or counterfeit item, and part of this is because I take a bit of time to figure out what exactly I'm buying instead of just clicking a few buttons on eBay anytime I see something that appeals to me or buying DVDs off a blanket on the sidewalk.

 

This.

Costs of doing business are higher in Japan than in South Korea and China. As a result, their prices will be higher.

I have to agree with Fantasy Dolls about the fact that some people feel more expensive dolls are "better", because I don't think this is true. Every company has its strengths and collectors need to find the company that best appeals to their doll desires. I like Volks resin, the heaviness, the less mature bodies and I live in Japan. So, I have Volks dolls. But, if I preferred more mature bodies, lighter dolls and more poseability I would likely opt for Fairyland. Not all collectors want the same thing in their dolls.

 

I agree. It is not OK. We are taking money directly from the designer/artists when we buy from bootleggers. These are not big faceless corporations we are talking about either. These are legit artists making a living in a super niche hobby. We enjoy their dolls and they deserve our support. Bootleggers are thieves who steal business from talented people and in some cases they can ruin a reputation by branding their poor quality goods with a name they don't rightfully own. Every doll company deserves our respect and support in keeping this hobby legit.

Why are we dragging this up here? Honestly, how can you post that Volks only marks up because of their name without any hard facts to support? Comments like that have zero foundation since Volks always charged a lot for their dolls. It is not like they started raising the price big time after they gained market mind share.

Japan is an expensive place to live and work. I think that has a lot to do with the price. I own Volks dolls but I hate brand names. I really hate them to a point where I often pick off the stitching and labels on my clothes with an exacto knife I hate being free advertising for companies. But I love Volks dolls. Their design is nice and I like the stylization of the faces. But I like non Volks dolls too like many other owners. I certainly don't see myself as a person who can't "understand" how I am being taken advantage of. Volks does not = brand whore.

Yes well, are people really having "a go" at them? Or are they just mad in general that the fake exists? Meaning they point out the negatives of owning such a doll and the owner feels like they are getting kicked when they are already down? Not sure really how I feel about this to be honest. I can see both sides. Diplomacy and sensitivity is required because I am willing to bet that a lot of people have been taken for a ride without realizing it until it is too late.

Exactly.

 

Fantasy Dolls, a while back there was a member investigation into how much companies charge their Western market compared to their home markets - Volks was the only company to charge everyone exactly the same, regardless of whether you live in or outside Japan. All other companies, including the 'cheaper' companies, marked the prices up for buyers outside their country. Volks' prices (which Isenn has pointed out have always been high), have little to do with the overall problem of bootlegging in the hobby.

We're not seeing just the expensive and limited dolls being re-cast and sold cheaply anymore, we're seeing parts from the less expensive companies being re-cast too. This hurts everyone from the original artist whos work is being ripped off and they will lose out on money that's rightfully theirs if someone buys a knock-off of their doll, to the uninformed newcomer who buys a doll at a ridiculously good deal to then find out that the doll is ostracised from the hobby for being a fake.

But that's one of the problems, isn't it? How do you tell the difference between someone who made a one-time mistake and someone who deliberately buys a fake doll, and sees no problem with that? Simple answer - you can't. This is why all knock off dolls are banned on DoA, we can't risk any of them making their way on to the Marketplace because we want to protect the integrity of the MP and protect members from buying fakes here accidentally.

While I sympathise with owners who have bought knock-off dolls by mistake, I don't support any relaxing of the negativity towards or ostracism of the fake doll. As soon as these dolls are accepted by the community, I think something important here dies; respect for the artists. Without the doll sculptors we wouldn't have a hobby at all and by buying fakes we stick our fingers up at the artists' hard work. Personally, I want these artists to keep producing amazing dolls but they won't if their work keeps getting ripped off, and I understand that. I wouldn't keep making dolls if someone else kept stealing my ideas and undercutting my prices, would you keep making dolls under those circumstances?

 

I know that there are those of us who get these dolls to "collect"...happily displaying their beauty with the hopes of their going up in price at some time. However, to me, they really are more of a creative outlet. Each doll I have, I've changed wigs on, eyes, makeup, bodies, heads, put in earring holes...added elf ears, taken off elf ears, etc. I love each and every one of them. Right now, I'm on a "how alive can this one be" kick. I have so much fun with them. I'm sure most of you know what I'm talking about. Well, because of how much they give me, I really don't care about how much they will become in price, or if by changing them any I could make them less money. They're expensive to me and I pay it because they are so beautiful...and another "artist" created them by hand and heart so they're worth the price. What these dolls give me is a lot too! But...I would not knowingly buy a knockoff because of my respect for the original artist. Unless that artist has become "large" enough to agree to someone doing knoockoffs, then they deserve to get what they can for their art...especially since it is expensive for them to produce them.

 

IF they are complete recasts...
and someone bought one...
painted it...
and NEVER told anyone it was from (insert company)....
took pics of it...
posted them in a photostory with their other dolls...
how would anyone know?

I bought a recast off of eBay a little over a year ago. It was my first doll. I was naive and young and stupid, and fell for the lies the seller told. The doll arrived in 3 days (which is suspicious in it's own way). I immediately posted pictures on DoA. You would be suprised how many people IMMEDIATELY knew it was recasted, and the thread got shut down. A lot of people are experts in certain companies, and can tell when something is real and when something is fake; especially those people who actually own the doll themselves. So I wouldn't worry about secret recasts/copies lurking in the shadows of DoA xD
Luckily those people are around to help us see what is real and what is not, and keep our forum clean of bootlegs and knock-offs. I know I appreciate them a lot, for they help me see where is safe to buy from, and help me make wise decisions. ♥ Without moderations and rules, the forum wouldn't be able to maintain itself. Also, if the bootlegs and recasts were allowed to freely run about, who knows what would happen to the hobby itself? I would deffinitely loose respect for the people that bought copied dolls on purpose, just to save money. And eventually, I'm sure I would loose respect for the hobby as a whole. I'm sure as heck that the lovely artists wouldn't continue to produce beautiful dolls if people started stealing their art left and right.

 

I feel like if things remain relatively the same as they are now, copied dolls will never present a significant problem in our market.

The doll community as a whole is largely anti-copying. With so many people around that are such big fans of certain companies, artists, and sculpts, it seems HIGHLY unlikely that a copy wouldn't be quickly spotted, causing the community as a whole to avoid supporting its sale.

In order for something to sell, there needs to be a demand for it. Since the general demand for bootleg dolls is very low AND the liklihood that anyone in the hobby would end up buying a bootleg doll is generally low, producers don't have much of a market to work with. Sure, they can depend on unsuspecting individuals that will never get involved with the doll community, but that'd be a really unwise business move, as it relies on people who happen by dolls accidentally and want to buy them for their beauty and not actually to do anything with them.

Copied dolls are not viewed in very many circumstances as substitutes for original dolls, and because of that and everything I just mentioned, they won't significantly impact our doll market.

People looking to avoid purchasing a fake CAN ask for papers, original boxes, etc. and they can buy in places like the DoA Marketplace, where someone is likely to spot and report a bootleg very quickly. I'm distrustful of eBay in general, so I have no idea why anyone wanting a legitimate good would look there in the first place, unless they were looking for a substantial discount. And let's face it - dolls don't usually end up discounted unless the owner has no idea what it's actually worth, which seems to occur infrequently.

Also, while I believe that copying is wrong, I think it's important to acknowledge that not all peoples and cultures feel the same way. Many countries don't have strong systems of intellectual property rights (patents, copyrights, trademarks) - and some have good reasons for NOT having them, despite the fact that it will let copies get through.

(Just FYI - I'm an economics major, so I've studied markets quite closely, and I've also taken a number of courses involving the economic impact of laws and intellectual property rights.)

 

Oh yikes! That would be terrible. What did you end up doing with the doll? D:

And I basically agree with what others are saying. The doll community is pretty tight-knit since there aren't many of us, so copiers don't get away with much.

 

This.

There comes a point in doll collecting, however, where particular dolls are priced so high and are so difficult to find that sometimes bootlegs offer an alternative for collectors who lack the budget for the original. When secondary market dolls start going for double their retail or more I personally feel the companies need to start doing similar molds or doing a rerelease of some kind to offset the demand to better protect their product from recasts but also to prevent "copies" that look very similar. New companies who want a hold on the market will release similar-looking dolls to establish a customer base. As Ren13 mentions, not all countries and individuals have similar perspectives on "copies" or recasts.

I do agree it's up to the community to protect the integrity of the hobby, but I also think that companies and artists need to step up and monitor which dolls are in danger of being mimicked by the competition to better protect their long-term profitability. If a doll is not a recast and is a similar doll made in a demanded style, well... that's not really different than any business capitalizing on a demand for a product despite the moral ambiguities. I do realize some people are incredibly loyal to particular companies and would be horrified by the above, but from a business perspective it's really about satisfying a demand in the market.

Dollshe dolls, for example, are in huge demand but are no longer made. New dolls with similar styles will emerge and have emerged to capture that market (Soom and Iplehouse come to my mind), but they could never replace the original vision of the artist behind the Dollshe dolls. Although the original Dollshe dolls aren't something I'm interested in myself, I can certainly appreciate the beauty of the dolls and the fact they were the very first large dolls made. As such, I'd be very surprised if some hadn't already been recast behind the scenes. I personally wouldn't do it or buy it and I feel it's wrong, but if someone really loved that doll, desperately wanted one and would do ~anything~ to have that doll even if they could never share the photographs, well... it could happen. Personally, I'm very surprised the artist would stop making a product in such high demand. As responsible as we are as a community we can't stop all recasts and copies no matter how diligent and strict we are. The only thing DOA can do is keep them off the forum and out of the marketplace.

Although I think limitations are important to the hobby, the danger of dolls that are too exclusive is that it creates a demand for copies and/or recasts even if it's not publicly advertised or discussed. Not all BJD forums are like DOA and not all of them are in English. Moreover, not all collectors share all their dolls online.

 

Just to point out to you... Dollshe dolls are currently in production by the original artist via Dollstown. Dollshe have released a new Saint and Bernard and have some other sculpts up as well. Some of the original sculpts are still out of print and of course, the originals are much more sought after (like the V1 SA Saint), but the entire company is not dead and gone as you seem to make out. I can see the point you're making and where you're coming from though, but yes, I just couldn't really leave that alone, since it's just not accurate.

A bit more OT though: Dollshe have indeed done exactly what you're talking about. They've revamped bodies and the head sculpts and are now producing because the dolls they produce are simply in demand. They've protected themselves from recasting with this course of action, even though the original dolls are still hugely in demand by some people.

I think it works, mostly because some people just like their dolls and don't care what version they get as long as it is a Saint or a Bernard or whatever they like, really. Some others would still rather go after the first castings that were produced and more power to them, but for the rest of the people that don't want to pay $1500+ for a doll, there are now the new Dollshe standard dolls that are readily available to the public and they will be less likely to be recast because they are commonly available as a standard doll.