The consequences of copied dolls

Thanks so much for correcting me. It is very much appreciated.

 

Though even now the documentation alone isnt sufficient - A little while back I brough to the attention of people here that a Unoa Lusis was selling for $300 USD including shipping WITH the paperwork (instructions etc) that all Unoas come with on Taobao the Chinese equivalent to eBay - what was hillarious is that the seller made it clearly known it was a recast and his appologies if the colour wasnt exactly the same as the REAL Unoa's and it would take 15 days to make..... He sold about 30 BEFORE he was shut down.

Pipos are great as each doll has a hand-numbered certificate that allows the owner to register the doll on their website - if you have purchased it second hand there is a section to write who it was bought off so the company can tell you if its real or not - THIS only works if every owner registers the doll and remember if they sell it to pass on the certificate...

 

I think you make a great point. Personally, I don't really see this so much as a secondary market problem as much as one created by the company itself. If the dolls don't include a COA from the company (do Unoa's include certificates of authenticity or only instructions? I don't know) it's very difficult for people to know which dolls are legitimate particularly if they're older dolls or made by companies which no longer exist.

Personally, I feel COA's are an essential part of buying (and selling) for me. I sympathize with those looking for a body or a particular head to create hybrids, because I think some of the greatest dolls are hybrids, but I couldn't imagine buying a head or a body without some kind of identifying documentation for my records even if it were an invoice or receipt with the personal information of the buyer removed. But, I'm one who likes to know the history of the dolls I buy and I share that with buyers who buy my dolls if there is anything to share about them.

 

The consequences of copied dolls, it hurts the maker of the originals the most. This applies to any sort of counterfeit items and things. If they loose too much money eventually they'll have to shut down. Some may even be too upset by it and stop making things. This means less people will be out there creating original things. That is a horrible thing.

 

COAs are easily faked... all it takes is a clever graphics-hound with some fancy paper & a decent printer, to see an original COA and mock one up. After all, if the buyer has never bought an original from the company before, how are they to know whether the COA is actually real? People can be awfully credulous when they really want something to be true.

And even if you use website product registration, as whitewings points out, that's only as reliable as the weakest link in the chain. If any one single owner fails to register that product, e-authentication becomes useless. (This is the same way some really open-and-shut cases can get thrown out of court, btw.... The defense attorney spots a break in the chain of evidence, discovers that a fingerprints-lab employee once dropped some files on the floor and doesn't know who re-filed them, and whoosh, the case gets thrown out.)

The longer I think on it, the more depressing it is. ;;^^ The last secondhand doll I bought was from somebody I knew, so I knew it was legit... But before that, the last seconhand dolls I bought were on eBay in '07 or so, when there were way fewer scammers around and we just rarely even considered this danger. If I were shopping secondhand today, from strangers, I'd have to make myself be waaaay more careful in the vetting-process. I too can be credulous when I really want something to be true.

I don't understand this bit.... ?? Soom and Iplehouse aren't "new" companies at all, they've been around about as long. They're also not copies of Dollshes, nor are they meant to replace Dollshes in any market, nor are they even remotely close to even resembling Dollshes.

 

Hopefully this is OT enough, but I am still kind of scratching my head over the whole Yuan to Western currency thing.

I am a big fan of Angell-Studio's sculpts, so before having done research, I ordered one from wyr1234567 on Ebay. I read rumors about her being a bootlegger, and was like "Woah, cancelcancelcancel!" At this point, she explained to me that she is not bootlegging at all, but rather buying dolls from Angell Studio's Chinese website, which charges significantly less. I thought this was likely to be a bunch of bologna, so I did some research myself. As it turned out, when converting the Yuan cost to American dollars, the dolls cost about $150 dollars less when purchasing from the Chinese website with Yuan. Basically, it would seem that wyr1234567 was just being somewhat clever about making a profit. Not exactly respectable, no...but clever? At any rate, this made me wonder why they would mark up their price pretty substantially for the American consumer? Wyr claimed that it was just because we were willing to pay more. Obviously, they are still turning a profit even selling their dolls at the lower Yuan cost...it sort of makes my head spin.

The moral of the story for me, however, is that I bought directly from Angell-Studio's English website. I couldn't deal with the looming gray cloud of possibly not-being-real-ness, so I overpaid? I don't really have access to Yuan though...

Elasticity? Inelasticity? Mehhh?

 

Considering he isn't toxic, I've kept him. No sense in throwing 300 dollars out the window. And I would NEVER dream of reselling him. For two reasons; one, despite it being a recast it was my first doll. Two being that it is bad enough it's in my possession, but selling it to someone else would be terrible. I don't want to spread the word of copies and encourage people to buy them, because it's terrible. I honestly want to apologize to Volks myself on the bootleggers behalf, and mine for purchasing it, even though I didn't know :/
I really wish the companies could do more about people copying their work! It seems to me they can only do a little bit to stop those already bootlegging and I wish there was some way we could help!

 

Dollshe was the "pioneer" of the larger 70cm dolls. Before Dollshe the larger 70cm dolls didn't exist. Or at least that is my personal understanding. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. When Dollshe dolls started to be in demand other companies started creating them.

And good point about the certificates. But, if someone were in doubt they could request a picture and confirm that it's legitmate by emailing the company directly.

 

Wow, I bought directly from angell studio and I thought their customer service was perfect; I practically sang them praises in my company review, but this made me lose some respect for them. I'm not siding with Wyr either. But obviously if angell studio didn't charge their English-speaking customers differently from the Chinese-speaking ones there wouldn't be people like Wyr.

Is this even on-topic? Maybe somebody should create a thread about this.

 

I was wondering that myself (if my post was on-topic). ^^;; I mean, I was really pleased with A-S's customer service as well, but different retail prices is kind of bunk!

 

Actually, if you look at a number of stores (not just BJD stores in China like Angell Studio; including shops for clothing, electronics, and basically anything consumers want to buy in numerous countries), they charge different prices domestically than they do internationally. It has a lot to do with what the cost of living is like in many countries as well as fluctuations in the exchange rate. For example, when I went shopping in SE Asia, many times I would see similar or the same products I could find here in Canada, but the Canadian prices were nearly triple.

I know that some people might be tempted to shop on Taobao with a service to purchase from reputable dealers on there, but once you calculate the fees for a shopping service (plus domestic shipping, then final international shipping to you)...it's sometimes not necessarily much of a difference in pricepoint. I suppose the only way to get around it would be to have a friend in said country and get them to purchase for you.

 

Oh, you mean just the SIZE. ^^ That's very different; I thought you meant stylistic ripoffs or recasts. No, being the first to make a doll in a certain size doesn't mean that all subsequent dolls of that size are ripoffs or recasts, or intended to be substitutes. There are a zillion companies who make some variation on the Lanky-70cm doll body type pioneered by the Hounds, but they come in all shapes & builds. Just like all 60cm doll bodies don't all look like (or replace) the original Volks SD13, either.

(Also I don't know if you've ever looked at an EID next to a Dollshe before, but... even though they are both 70cm tall, you could probably fit about 2 Dollshe boys into 1 leg of an EID's pants. ^^ Way different! My blind grandfather wouldn't mistake one for the other.)

Here's an open-and-shut Debate thread about this exact topic, from awhile ago...
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?160499-Different-Doll-Prices-based-on-country

It degenerated into a price-policing witchhunt so the thread got closed. But, lots of info in there.

 

I think bootlegs are really wrong, because it is the same as stealing art. But the companies do add more then just taking into account wages. For example dollzone. A good Chinese company, when the first came on the market they where pretty creep. Compared to a lot of other dolls, but once they got popular they wacked up the price with no improvement to the doll!

I am sure Volks would have been cheaper when the first set up, and i can see why they would cost more if the wage is higher. But i personally think there is more to it then that.

I do agree with you there!

I am not saying Volks are the only ones to do it, i will add that dollzone did the same. It is not just them but there are a few companies that start off cheaper, still a lot of money but that is because of all the hard work. But at lot of companies have inflated the prices of them. And i do think in some ways you ARE paying for the brand.

The Volks clothes are stupidly more money for what they are as well. I do think that all the doll companies are a brand some cost more then others. I do admit the quality varies but it is not always a reflection of price. I know someone with a Resin Soul doll and they are some of the cheapest i have seen but they look amazing.

The only reason they are cheap is because they are new-ish to the market, but i am betting that soon they will get more popular and increase the price. When their "brand" is more well known.

That is good you see both sides, I see both sides there too! Maybe companies can help with that, maybe they can offer a cheaper rate on the real doll, in exchange for the fake and details on where the fake was bought.

That why it gets rid of some of the fakes and then they can trace and track down the people supplying them.

That is good from there point then. I agree that Volks is not the only one to mark up. And I am pretty sure the older volks where not as pricey. I can imagine them not being as cheap as some of the newer companies when the first set up, but i do think that was party they where the first and the stuff was new and when you are producing less dolls then the cost is higher.

But when you can produce a lot more then costs come down.

 

I know knock offs are a BIG issue and i did suggest a way to help those people with fakes that have been mislead. Just above your comments. If the original company offers a small discount on a new doll in exchange for the fake along with all the details of the seller. The the companies can track down the people who are faking the dolls.

I do sympathetic with them, but i can see why you would push people who know they are fake when they buy them out of the hobby, because they support the fakers.

 

Fantasy Dolls I don't agree with you at all. Most companies start of with lower prices because they want to lure customers in, not because that is the realistic asking price. It has nothing to do with their brand's name; selling them cheap is a smart marketing tactic. But to make sufficient profit they will have to raise their prices sooner or later.

I've just started casting my own doll and I've already estimated that when I'm done, I'm about a thousand dollars lighter... and I only have the one cast. I didn't even add all the time I've spend working on him, or the errors and changes I will make during the process, I'm strictly talking about the original material cost. Making dolls is expensive. Making mistakes even more.

Since you are constantly using Volks as an example I will use them as well: they don't mark up. Their prices are realistic considering the quality of their products. Their dolls are heavy and sturdy, meaning they use a lot of resin with each cast and even full-sets are not excessively pricey considering what you get for them.
I belief they will have to keep asking this amount of money from customers to keep their company healthy. After all, there are dozens to hundreds of employees whose wages have to be paid and you can't do that with air.

 

But "pretty sure" is not sure and you are writing with a tone of experience. I just looked up the price of a 1999 Volks Kira with no proper clothing. She was about 618.00USD. She is standard-ish I guess as she comes with no real clothes to speak of In 2001 an SD13 Full Set went for around 767.00 USA. Considering inflation and such these are not big mark ups.

Please check out the numbers at Where Angles Lie. Respectfully, I want to add that I don't think it is totally fair to compare Volks to the price inconsistencies or price points of other doll makers without gathering some info.

Again, Japan is an expensive place to live and work. We can't expect the Japanese to be able to always compete price wise with countries who can produce dolls for so much less. Volks gives us high quality dolls and consistent proven reliability at a consistent Japanese price.

 

Fantasy Dolls- On the Volks note, the original Megu in 1999 actually cost MORE than the 2008 renewal standard Megu (neither is a fullset) by about 2000 yen (roughly $20). On the other hand, Nana and Sara's original releases are about 8000 yen (roughly $80) cheaper than the current standards. Prices do vary by doll and by release, but overall they have stayed pretty steady considering the 10 year time span. It's worth having a look around angelden.net if you're curious about Volks' prices, they have dolls listed in order of release and you can compare the very early releases to more recent ones. Their prices may seem high compared to other companies, but another thing to keep in mind is that they were the very first company to make and sell a modern resin ABJD, the first to set prices for ABJDs.

And, as I mentioned in the very first sentence of my post, every business charges more for their products than they cost to produce and sell- you can't run a business in the long term if you're not making any money.

Yes, some companies have to adjust their prices- sometimes they go up, sometimes down. From the outside it's hard to tell exactly what factors go into pricing and price changes. It's also difficult to compare between companies, because costs of materials, employees, and general costs of operation vary from company to company and especially from country to country (and then you get into currency conversion for the many non-American dolls that are priced in US Dollars).

I don't really know what this discussion really has to do with bootlegging of dolls anymore, unless we're getting back to the idea that if a doll is "too expensive" or the company "overcharges" then they are somehow inviting bootleggers, that it is somehow OK to bootleg dolls and buy those bootlegged dolls. And to me, that's a ridiculous attitude of entitlement, especially over a luxury good.

 

^Just needed to QFE.

 

I'm not sure if you are aware that when Dollzone first came on the market, they recast/copied at least one doll (a Kid Delf Woori from Luts). It was only through quick action and a lot of hard work that they managed to survive as a legitimate doll company. (But that's a separate topic that has been hashed and rehashed so many times it doesn't need to be addressed here.) However, I think you are approaching the cost issue from only one angle, perceived popularity, and failing to take into account other factors such as currency exchange, cost of designing new sculpts and bodies, fluctuation in price and availability of materials, labor turnover, business expansion, taxes and other costs of doing business. All of these have to be included and considered in order to arrive at the final price. 'Popularity' is hardly the sole arbiter in determining the end cost of an artisan-made good.

See above. And as others have pointed out, when Volks dolls were first introduced the yen price on them was higher than the same models now. (That doesn't necessarily mean the dollar price was higher, the exchange rate was much more favorable to the dollar then. But Volks dolls are priced in yen, thus that's where the comparison needs to be made.)

Dollzone's price increase likely had a lot to do with the strengthening of the Chinese yuan as well as the expansion of their business. It might interest you to know that at different times companies (largely Korean ones) have LOWERED their prices in accordance with the currency exchange.

I completely have to disagree with you in re: Volks clothes. The craftsmanship, design, fabrics used and quality of them are completely worth the money, not to mention how wonderful they look on dolls. If there is a specific Volks outfit you bought at retail price that led you to this conclusion, I'd be curious to know which one it is.

Also, being 'new-ish' to the market is hardly the only reason for the price of Resin Soul dolls. Their location, resin used, labor costs and other factors must be considered.

I can't see why buying a copied doll should entitle one to a cheaper price on the real doll. Why should a company reward erroneous behavior?

While it is likely the cost per doll would go down after the initial dolls are made, that fails to take into account the increased materials and labor costs to make 'a lot more' dolls.

 

Yes because the cast is the most expensive part, in my original comments i pointed this out and it is not juts doll casts, toys casts are the same. Transformers for example re-release the same molds with different colours to help get the money back. BUT if people would care to READ my full comment and not parts of them. All companies have this issue which is why dolls cost so much in the first place. Even the cheaper companies a doll is going to set you back about $200 which is still a lot of money. But that does reflect the time and effort put into it. Like I said in my ORIGINAL comment.

Which if why people cast even the cheaper dolls, because the MOST expensive part is making the cast. Which is why people consider the knock offs. But you can't say it cost one company so much more then another to make a cast. I mean if you making few dolls from that the cost works out more per doll to get the money back.

My main point that come companies cost a lot more then others for little reason in some cases.

I think that the lower companies are a realistic asking price, because it is a little stupid to start selling at a loss because so many other things setting up are going to lose you money.

for YOUR info i used the term "Pretty sure" because i don't like to fully commit myself, because i know it is possible i may not have all the facts. So my opinions are based on facts that i know. But i doesn't mean i am closed minded like a lot of people on here.

If you look at the above comment i made and OTHER comments i KEEP making because people seem to think i like repeating my self. I did state that set up costs are expensive because the casts cost a lot of money. So when a company is fairly new then the dolls cost more because the cost of that cast is spread with fewer dolls.

When a company gets bigger and produces more dolls production costs GO DOWN IN PRICE. So the fact they have raised it that much does surggest a mark up, because living cost down go up by the numbers you have quoted. Plus the dolls would have become cheaper to make.

If you look at the above comment i made and OTHER comments i KEEP making because people seem to think i like repeating my self. I did state that set up costs are expensive because the casts cost a lot of money. So when a company is fairly new then the dolls cost more because the cost of that cast is spread with fewer dolls.

When a company gets bigger and produces more dolls production costs GO DOWN IN PRICE. So the fact they have raised it that much does suggest a mark up, because living cost down go up by the numbers you have quoted. Plus the dolls would have become cheaper to make.

I am not saying dolls are too expensive, i would just bring up reasons to why people are likely to boot-leg and what doesn't help. And someone was stating that brand name bags and things like that was OK to bootleg and i was stating that personally i think that both are wrong. So if people would get off the high horses and maybe, just possibly read my FULL ORIGINAL comment, they would realize that it in fact is on topic.

Plus i get GOING BACK to the topic of the casts, which is why people boot-leg because it is the CAST THAT IS THE BIGGEST COST of the doll!!! So people re-cast and copy dolls BECAUSE that is the most expensive part!!

Just people on here like to argue rather then DISCUSS!!