The consequences of copied dolls

That is stupid serious as i said before it is not a loss, it is stupid to go into business knowing you are going to make a loss because there are so many other things you make a loss on. And some of the cheaper companies have been going longer then is realistic to sell at a loss for.

I do admit sales and things can lure people in as well as giving stuff away with the doll! But if you are doing that for years you are going to go bust. And i am NOT TAKING ACCOUNT THOSE FACTORS FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS :-

All the companies have to take those cost into account!

And this is not a debate on the dolls costing too much!!! I was point out to one person all bootlegging is wrong, not just that off dolls because she seemed to think it was ok to buy knock off designer things, and i was saying they are both wrong. Because an artist is behind them both.

I mentioned that the base price of the is expensive because of the expensive of the the cast, which is why people re-mold knock offs.

And as for the volks clothes it is more the style of them, i know they fit there own dolls well, as they are intended too. But i think other companies do much more nicer and detailed designs for roughly the same price. Volks dolls clothes would not also fit my doll as well because of the body shapes. That is no fault of volks though and i know that because why would they make clothes to fit the competition well and not their own.

But it is a style thing, they look like a simple dress you would see on a porcelain doll rather then looking like other BJD clothes. The styles seem simple as well.

 

Oh i forgot to say that i didn't know dollzone did that, which is pretty wrong!! Because as i keep saying that i do really dislike people who make copies because it is wrong because it hurts the artist. Which going back to my original point which is that i think all bootlegging is wrong and not just of dolls.

 

Oh really? This is a picture of two non-Volks dolls wearing Volks clothing very well. Very detailed, very nice Volks clothing. I can't speak for the boy's outfit, but my girl's only cost me 7000Y, or @$75 give or take.

I'm sure if we started soliciting examples, we'd have a pile of them in no time. So I'm thinking perhaps you're barking up the wrong tree, as it were.

 

Oh yeah, I see this kind of outfit on my granny's doll collection all the time. That Madame Alexander can get so kinky sometimes. And the thing about their older-model dolls' prices, really? You sure you're talking about the right company, and not just making up numbers because you assume that's how they do business? I'm not 100% convinced that the Volks you're talking about is the same Volks that actually exists in real life.

Yeah, that's the slant that persistently keeps floating back to the surface.... victim-blaming. "It's their own fault that people want to rip them off. If they don't wanna be bootlegged, they should sell everything for cheap." -_- (And didn't we already hear enough of that attitude in the days before No Means No became law?)

 

Dolls are different shapes and sizes, it helps make them more unique from each other!! If all outfits fit all the dolls why would there be threads on "what fits my doll" They would fit if the clothes are similar sized dolll. But some dolls are just far too small. I couldn't find the measurements of the Volks dolls but Resin Soul for example are a very thin doll ->

[FONT=宋体]HEIGHT 42cm[/FONT][FONT=宋体][/FONT]​

[FONT=宋体]ARM LENGTH 11cm[/FONT][FONT=宋体][/FONT]​

[FONT=宋体]LEG LENGTH 20.5cm[/FONT]​

[FONT=宋体]

[FONT=宋体]FOOT LENGTH 5.2cm[/FONT][FONT=宋体][/FONT]​

[/FONT][FONT=宋体][/FONT]

[FONT=宋体]HEAD SIZE 17cm[/FONT][FONT=宋体][/FONT]​

[FONT=宋体]NECK SIZE 6cm[/FONT][FONT=宋体][/FONT]​

[FONT=宋体]SHOULDER WIDTH 7.5cm[/FONT][FONT=宋体][/FONT]​

[FONT=宋体]CHEST 15.5cm[/FONT][FONT=宋体][/FONT]​

[FONT=宋体]WAIST 11cm[/FONT][FONT=宋体][/FONT]​

[FONT=宋体]HIP 17cm

They are smaller then a lot of MSD sixed BJDs. Because the dolls like people come in all shapes and sizes. [/FONT]

Yeah sure there is an imaginary Volks just for me!! And yeah sure things like this -> http://www.volksusa.com/ofkor0002.html would never be seen on a porcelain doll. And i NEVER said granny's seriously i meant dolls, i mean how many granny's do you see in lolita outfits!!!

Here is another example -> http://www.volksusa.com/oflpc01060009.html

All can be found on my own imaginary Volks site!!

 

then who would the board fault? the buyer? what if the buyer was new to the hobby and didn't know?

 

I did read the rest of your post and like I implied in my response, I didn't agree with you that $200 for a SD-sized doll is a lot of money. Considering the material costs and the time people have spend on sculpting, testing and molding that doll, if you're living in a country where life is expensive and wages are high, you will need to sell dolls at a price that will support you. If I - in the Netherlands - would sell dolls for $200 a piece, I would take a loss with each one I sold. On the other hand, someone in another part of the world might make a decent living of it.

Of course it is not only where you are born, but also if your company is run by just you or other people that makes a difference. (a one-man company will probably be more expensive because it has less options to 'mass-produce'). Another thing that will make a difference is whether the dolls are highly detailed or not. The first are harder to mold.
There are so many things that have to be taken into account that it is hard to compare one company with the other.

But even then, even if a company is crazily expensive, it doesn't give anyone the right to just steal their doll. Stealing is stealing and it doesn't really matter what excuses there are. We're talking about a luxury item, not a basic need, there really isn't any excuse for such behaviour. But I'm sure that with this, you and I are on the same level, right?

@Kitkaze: No, not the buyer. This board accuses the bootlegging seller. Like you said, most buyers didn't know they bought a copy and with a hobby that changes as fast as ours it is hard to keep track. The sellers however, can very well be held accountable.

 

I'm really not intending to snark with this, but you keep mentioning a connection between the high cost of molds and bootlegging, which I'm not understanding. Can you explain why you think the two are linked? I just don't see the connection but you keep bringing this up... that the high cost of making the mold leads to bootlegs. Bootleggers still need to make a mold from a doll in order to cast more so they still have that cost.

Anyway, on a couple of other notes about molds... it can indeed cost two companies different amounts to make a mold or buy the resin for a cast. Wages and cost of living aren't the only things that vary from country to country, material costs can vary quite a bit as well. With materials like resin and silicone, someone has to make them before an artist can cast with them, which will logically be more expensive if done in a country with higher wages and higher general overhead costs. If the materials are imported, their importation and sale can be taxed at different rates by different governments (as well as the cost of actually shipping the materials from the country they are made in to the country they are sold in).

Silicone molds also need to be remade from time to time, as they degrade when they are used. I'm not sure what most toy companies use for their molds, but I would assume something sturdier that doesn't need to be replaced as often.

This IS the debate subforum, but yes, the thread is getting a bit heated. I suppose it's an easy topic to get worked up over...

EDIT: One other thing, about companies who have lowered their prices... it doesn't necessarily mean that the dolls are costing less to make. Most of the companies that lowered their prices were Korean companies who sold dolls in USD. During the GFC, the Korean won took a huge plunge in value compared to the US dollar. What this meant was that they could sell a doll for a lower US dollar price and still make the same amount in korean won as they used to, because each US dollar is worth more won. So in terms of their own local currency, they weren't lowering the price drastically. The other example I can think of is the Felix Doll Brownie sale, which ended up becoming more or less permanent.... until the company went bankrupt. Obviously, for them, it didn't work out for them.

 

Well you talk with a tone of authority for someone who is only "pretty sure" that is why I responded. Also, I think this is a discussion. Someone who does not agree with you is not necessarily "arguing"

It took me less then 3 minutes to find the information on Volks prices so like I said...maybe just try to find the facts before you post info. that is simply not correct. This is not an ALL CAPS conversation. I want to hear your points! I only ask that we don't single out certain company practices and use them as examples without taking a few moments to see if the facts are straight.

As for the comments about you thinking we like you to "repeat yourself" or that the board is filled with "closed minded" people. Well...that is simply not true. If you state an opinion you might need to back it up. People are going to challenge you if you make statements that are not totally backed by facts. That is true for all of us I hope you can understand that no harm is intended.

Also, I noticed that you are still mentioning huge price mark ups? What company are you talking about because I assume you can see that Volks is not marking up big time since their first BJD?

 

I have to step in at this point because this isn't true at all.

My first doll was a DZ mini. He was $200US brand new, blank and naked, when I bought him. This was February of 2007 -- over three years ago. That same exact doll in the same exact condition -- naked, no faceup -- is currently...$240US. (Price comes from the Denver Doll Emporium website as of right now, for a blank Dollzone Fei in normal yellow skin.) That is not exactly a massive jacking of prices, and given how wildly currencies can fluctuate in a year, much less three, I wouldn't say that has a damn thing to do with the doll's popularity. That could be solely due to an increase in the cost of materials, it could be from a currency fluctuation...it's hard to say. Hell, it could be because they gave their workers a raise! Just because a lot of newer Chinese companies have less-expensive dolls in the same size range doesn't mean Dollzone is inflating their prices. (Oh, and there have been a substantial number of improvements to the doll in the past three years. I would have killed for something as simple as a magnetic headcap, lemme tell you. Wrenching his headcap off was a full upper-body workout.) When they came out, Dollzones were cheap relative to the hobby as a whole. These days they're not considered particularly cheap, but that has a lot less to do with them raising prices and a lot more to do with a flood of companies that are coming in with a lower price point than Dollzone has. Perspective changes a lot.

I wish I could say I didn't understand the logic behind 'discount the doll so nobody buys the bootleg' but it's something I see all the time in my line of work. It's consumer entitlement at its most obvious. "Well this doll is exactly like that doll but it's half as expensive, so why should I buy that expensive doll when this one is just the same? Your doll's overpriced! Make it cheaper, then I won't buy the bootleg!" I see this attitude on a daily basis, and it drives me insane. Some people refuse to actually research products, refuse to educate themselves on why some products can look the same and yet have hugely different costs. I've lost count of the number of times I've had people walk into a store I've worked at and look at a line of very well-known, expensive chairs, and claim they're ridiculously overpriced and they can get the same exact thing for $500 down the street. No. You can't. If all you're concerned with is looks, then go right ahead and go buy the cheap chair. But I will explain to you that this chair involves a state-of-the-art highly automated manufacturing facility, top of the line materials, and decades of careful research and experimentation to produce a chair specifically designed to contour to the body and provide correct lumbar and neck support. They're produced in fairly large volume but the prices remain high because the technology and the materials are still expensive -- they're just buying more of it than they were when they were making individual chairs.

It's worth noting that a lot of those customers end up buying the expensive chairs instead of the cheap knockoffs.

 

@Fantasy Dolls: I reread the last few posts written and it sounds like you feel attacked because of the number of people who have replied to your posts. Am I right?
If I am: We didn't mean to jump on you. Speaking for myself it is because your opinion is different from mine that I became interested and replied to discuss. But I'm not arguing with you; I'm not angry, nor do I think that you are foolish or whatever. I can understand it feels this way, because a discussion can soon get heated, but I hope you know that it isn't my intention to bash you.

 

Since when is it wrong to make a profit and since when is it wrong to decide you want to make more profit on something that is not a necessity? If I tape a tissue to a canvas with duct tape, take a picture of it, call it art, and sell prints for $200 a piece, I can do that. If someone else tapes their own tissue to their own canvas with their own duct tape, takes a picture of it, calls it art, and sells prints for $20 a piece, they can do that. What they can't do is scan my picture and sell prints of my picture for $20.
No matter what I charge for my prints, it will never be okay to steal and bootleg. Nobody needs to buy my $200 prints and people are free to buy the $20 prints from the person who made their own prints from scratch. Just like I am free to later on decide to sell the same prints for $2000. If people want prints made by me, they pay my price. If they don't like my price, they won't buy my prints. If they just want a print of duct taped tissues, they can easily get it cheaper from the other person who made their own prints, but decided to sell them for less.

So how is Dollzone wrong for asking more for their dolls? It is their product and nobody will die if they won't get their dolls, so Dollzone can make as much profit as they like. It may bite when you don't like to pay that much, but making a profit on dolls is not unethical.

 

Oh for god sake firstly i was talking about $200 for MSD sized since that is the only size i own!!

If i have to explain my self about "pretty sure" one more time i am going to scream! I mean when i say that because i can only be sure on the facts i have, i am aware that there is most likely facts i don't have. Like you guys don't have all the facts you just going around thinking you do.

I think a lot of you need to learn to read. Please learn to read.

I am not saying it is wrong for them to charge what they do, because people are willing to pay that. I am just saying these dolls have brands and to some extent you pay for the name. Why else would you buy from one company over another. These brand names have reputations, and you pick ones with good reputations.

 

Thanks so much, yes it did and still does feel that way. It seems people are missing my point and taking things i say out of context. I don't mind people disagree just the manner seems harsh and with so many. Thanks so much for explaining, it does make me feel better.

I am happy to discuss our views and possibly see more then one side and learn some new things!

 

I mean, if someone got mis sold a bootleg, like the honestly didn't know. Someone made out that it was once theres and they wanted a better home or whatever and someone bought it. It is distressing. I am saying if there was a way, that they could say to the real company, i have this bootleg, it was miss-sold to me. They said right OK well if you posted the bootleg to us so we can destroy it, gives us the details of where you got the bootleg from, we will give you 10% off the real doll or something like that.

Kind of an insensitive to get rid of the boot leg and maybe even track down the seller and then sue them, because they will have the details off the person who it was miss-sold to them.

 

I think everyone here knows how to read already; I think you're having some trouble expressing yourself clearly. Everybody here is responding to you honestly and courteously. This is a Debate-- if somebody contradicts you, asks you to back your argument up with facts, or pokes holes in your assumptions, it doesn't mean they're attacking you personally. And, if all of these highly intelligent & lucid people here are still failing to get your drift, perhaps you need to step back and examine why they're not understanding you.

(Here's a hint: it's not all their own faults.)

 

I think it would do you a lot of good if you learn that in a discussion people are likely to disagree and/or advocate different points of views. If people don't agree with you and provide statements to support their views opposing yours, doesn't mean people don't like you or that they can't read. It means that you haven't (yet) managed to convince them of your point with your words.

 

Interesting subject.
I know there are some poor quality fakes out there (usually easy to spot - even in photos)- but how many of you have seen a good quality one?
I find it interesting there are so many "experts" here on what is and isnt a fake - sure there are people that can spot different sculpts, have a very good knowledge of certain companies etc - but to truely spot a good fake - by photographs? I find that a little hard to believe and I think the "community" is fooling itself to think that someone on here would spot all all fakes.

I have a pretty extensive BJD collection (well over 100) so yes I have handled a lot of dolls - they are from a variety of different companies. Most of them have been purchased direct from the company - but yes some have been purchased second hand and from yahoo Jp (Usually only Volks dolls as these are not easy to get direct from the company - as I live in Aust) . Can I honestly claim to know they are not fakes (the second hand ones).. nope.

I recently handled a doll - which the purchaser and I THOUGHT could have a possibility of being a copy - and we thought this - not due to quality or anything about the sculpt - but just due to the price paid and where it was purchased. I happened to have the same sculpt - unmodified - so we could closely compare in person - and we could not tell the difference.

So all this talk about quality etc - doesnt necesarily hold true for all copies.

Re casting... If a mold from a legitimate factory lasts for a certain amount of pours - lets say 50 heads - and then wears out and no longer produces the sharp details as compared to say cast 2 or 3.. Think about it.. do the companies throw the mold away before there is any discernable loss at all - no matter how minute or would there be a difference in cast 1 and cast 50. So maybe the "experts" could be comparing a very early cast to a late cast - and declare the last cast must surely be a fake because there is a millionth of a mm difference in some area. So what if the re-cast was made from a very early cast - and compared to a late cast of a legitimate doll... And oif course - some of the bootleg items - not necesarily BJDs - are actually coming from the same factories and makers that the "original" items comes from (for many reasons) - so who can spot THAT difference - the "experts"? They would be good - as there would be no difference.

Is it enough that someone who considers themselves to be a dollie expert is adamant that a certain doll is a fake - then it must be?
The odds are that the bootleg makers - even of the really good quality ones - wont make a huge killing or a huge dent in the market. I think their reach so far is relatively limited - the cheaper poor quality ones probably wont last long - bootleggers will come and go and probably find they arent making a lot of money for the effort involved - so they will stop. Even legitimate companies find this happens.

A few companies could help themselves a little bit - for instance Volks has LE dolls - but it always seems a big secret to how limited the doll really is.. wonder why that is (another marketing ploy me thinks) and other companies are happy to claim the number in the edition.
Its probably a bit of a storm in a tea cup and wont affect the hobby too much - unless people have too much of a knee jerk reaction and go over board in trying to control the second hand market

 

In regards to this topic, I have a rather perfect example that really irks me. After saving up to purchase my Bygg, whom I love... about a month ago, I found a girl on yourtube who was sculpting a doll that looked suspiciously similar. Now, the part that irked me was that I posted a comment on one of the vlogs where she's sculpting the doll in the video, pointing out that her doll looks VERY similar to Soom's Bygg/Beyla... from her response, she sounded as if she was actually very pleased that she was essentially copying this sculpt! And I'm not saying that the sculpt looks similar... I'm talking that the knee joints look EXACTLY the same, the hooves look almost identical (the feathering looks different), the head looks identical to the romantic head, ect. ect. and it boggles my mind as to why she wouldn't even attempt creativeness to sculpt her OWN doll rather than copy a company doll! *EDIT: because in all honesty, she is quite talented*

I actually have half a mind to copy the vlog and post it on SOOM's messageboard to show them someone's attempting to copy one of their beloved monthly dolls...

 

I actually remember the auction as I was a bidder on another of their products when I found out about their boot legged status - I think I said it to you back then but I'll say it again.... I felt so bad for you being taken for a ride with regards to the authenticity - but I was also really encouraged by your approach - that rather than hiding the fact you'd bought him in complete unnawares that sharing your story was the right thing to do... so again I have to commend you for you honesty and having the courage to help prevent this happening with others