The consequences of copied dolls

I don't quite understand your post.

Why you are trying to justify this quality issue for bootlegs. Bootleg is a bootleg. It is a copy right violation. Simple as that. How many of us can actually see a doll that we suspect is a fake in PERSON? That's just silly talk. It if unfortunate that we cannot prove simply by looking at a photograph. Quite frankly, I have seen a few here on DOA that I suspect as bootlegs but have no way to prove it is even though I feel strongly in my heart that it is not a legitimate doll I see.

So you are blaming the companies for the bootlegs it sounds like? You are saying companies should let all of us know what the numbers are when it comes to limits. But even so, that's not going to do anything.

That's insane. Bootlegs are taking money away from original makers. They take away their time from developing the doll from scratch. It doesn't matter that they are not making a BIG dent in the market, they should not be around period. The original makers are not here to be blamed for this. There are bootleg dolls for none limits too you know. It's not just limit dolls that are being bootlegged.

 

Izam: I don't think Meredith is trying to justify bootlegs at all. I think she is simply adding another layer to the debate by mentioning that they may not be of a lesser quality as some people believe, making them all the more hard to differentiate between the original doll. It's a cause for concern, and sadly something which means that bootleg companies really need to be nipped in the bud in order to cause any issue or confusion to the community, especially those less informed about companies and sculpts.

 

@ Izam,

I dont think Meredith was condoning bootlegs - at least thats not what I took from her post... I though it was more aimed at giving us more brain fodder in regards to having a serious think about how and where bootlegs are and to remember that the quality of a doll isnt enough to suggest it would be a fake.... *said jokingly* > Were that the case I'd really hate to see a fake Custom House doll.... LOL

Also as far as blaming the companies for bootlegs, I believe she was aming more towards better disclosure - as in making information more readily accessible could help reduce bootlegs... Volks may not have been the best example but if we were to KNOW how many of their LE dolls were available there would be a better indication (IMO) as to the price on the secondary market etc... Also Fairyland have a full list of their authorised retailers available on both their websites so the chances of buying a "New" Fairyland doll that is fake could be reduced by a little more research. (Fake PukiPukis ARE available on Taobao but they were reported and there is a thread her on DoA bringing it to the attention of potentially unsuspecting buyers)



Anysort of reproduction that takes away from the original artist or creative team/company is wrong - whatever the motivation behind it and its comforting to know that everyone tht has posted here is of that belief

 

Dear Meredith, kawaii_mon and whitewings: I actually read Meredith 's post several times and couldn't really understand it. Thanks for clearing it up. I over-reacted and I apologize for it. ><

This issue is too sensitive for me I guess.

 

The size concept was what I was referring to but I don't particularly like that size so I can't say I'm familiar with it or with the dolls in that size range. It was only an example to show as an example and in no way was an indication of the details about dolls. Frankly, I really don't care all that much which was why I used it so I could remain objective about the example.

The whole point of the argument is that I'm not the doll police and there would need to be a market demand for a bootlegger to step up and think money was to be made. In that regard, companies have a responsibility to monitor the market demand for their products. I don't think that is an excuse to bootleg dolls in ANY way since I think it's a horrendous thing to do. Generally, when a bootlegger sells an item the bootlegger doesn't usually get caught until some uneducated buyer buys the product or some unethical buyer buys it in secret. If there is no demand for said product than there is no need for the product to be bootlegged in the first place.

The basic idea is not about dolls or how big or small or how jointed they are. It's simply supply and demand. If a product is in demand a company will step up and make it. If a company does not, however, someone or another company will.

 

That is not true though. Basic dolls get bootleg as well. Not just limiteds. So even if there is a supply, some people just don't want to pay original price....they don't care if it's not the real thing. Or some people just aren't educated enough to know they are not buying the real thing.

 

Sorry to dredge up CBAB again but I have to complain when someone starts calling free market economics selfish and implying that it ought not to exist.

It's not dishonest, these companies are quite up front about the face they sell dolls to make a living. No one is underhand about it! The whole economy is built upon everyone charging what the market supports, and if a doll maker can charge enough to not just pay the bills but also have a good standard of living then good for them. If CBAB can afford to pay for luxury items like dolls it's because in the chain of events that lead to his paycheck there are markups on goods or services. It works both ways and this hate toward healthy capitalism I keep seeing in threads like this is frankly disturbing.

I'd love to know what magical percentage of markup CBAB considers to be an acceptable profit, and how that would be worked out.

Ok, got that off my chest, I'd also like to say that all this talk about headcap logos, paperwork, original boxes etc only works so far (if at all). As I mentioned in my last post all these things can be faked and the only way to verify them in many cases is to talk to the original company. And although all companies are keen to avoid fraud it woult take a great deal of time and effort for them to check the veracity of every second hand doll for sale - sales from which they aren't making money. The only reason I can see them wanting to do this is if they have a significant problem with a bootlegger and the evidence might help them.

 

I've just read up on the threads on lolidoll's dolls and am wondering if those people who have totally no idea that those are ripoffs, would you condemn them if they bought one? Its not as if they know that those are copies but they bought them thinking those are another brand. Would you disapprove of them/not make friends with them because of this?

I personally feel that they are not really in the wrong because they don't know ><
But then again, that's how i feel. So what do you all think? (:

PS: I'm very sorry if this is not the correct place to post. Kinda new here..
@o@

 

On the whole, the hobby rejects copied dolls to preserve the integrity of the hobby and to safeguard the market for the legitimate artists and companies we love. If someone buys a doll and later discovers it is a copy, I wouldn't reject this person as a friend...if someone buys a doll knowing full well that it is a copy, doesn't care that it's a copy and would buy another copy rather than a legitimate doll, then I know I wouldn't be able to be friends with such a person, our ethics just don't match

 

Even though I don't really have a whole sense on the economy, I'm just going to throw my two cents in.

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but how would you know if the cast is a copy? Unless the seller or company said it outright you can never be completely sure if it is or not. "Oh! That's a copy of [insert company name]'s doll!"

If anyone thinks it's okay to buy a copied doll then that's pretty unethical really. The company that originally produced that mold spent their time designing that particular sculpt and if anyone is going to take away their ideas then they should be ashamed. If you can't come up with your own ideas then why bother participating in this business at all? Ripping off somone's design is just going to ruin your business, their business (price-wise, I guess?), or both.

Sorry if that didn't make much sense... >.>;;

 

It makes it hard for companies to survive but its the world we live in. Sometimes, bits and pieces may end up the same being as how there are multiple companies out there with multiple dolls. However, if one can tell that a company blatantly copied a doll and its obvious on every detail, then that is sad on the companys part. If a company does copy a doll knowing darn good and well that it is not their original mold then someone needs to call them out on it and they should never be allowed to be in business again period. People/companies are comprised of grown adults and for someone to do something so shady means that they cannot be trusted if all they are going to do is create rip offs. As for the buyer, a lot of people are new and after seeing some things under this forum, I am just glad i didnt buy from any auction site. Someone who goes on auctions usually wants a good price and dont know better (like myself sometimesXD) so they really cannot be blamed. But if they find a doll on ebay for two hundred that retails 900 on a companies site they should know better in the first place, and as said before, I dont think that is right on their part. Plain and simple, its better to save up and buy from the original dealer/maker and support them so that the frauds arent fueled with our money and good feedback.

 

I've been going back and trying to read all the posts on this thread.....slowly making my way through them! I don't know if this point has been brought up or not (so far I haven't seen it mentioned), and if it has, then I'm sorry for going over it again.
Regarding fakes, knockoffs, recast dolls, etc. I've actually been pretty shocked to see some comments saying that regarding handbags, dolls, etc. that they go and seek out these items, and think it's silly to pay for a brand name item when a "just as good" knockoff is available.
There are so many things wrong with this it's hard to know where to start, BUT......has anyone discussed HOW these fakes are brought into being?? There is a huge group in NY composed of designers and people from all different fields that are trying to educate people, through magazine and internet ads, about the REAL issue of copied goods. Most of these items are made in extemely poor conditions, where the factory "workers" are very young children, and many times these children are locked into the factories for the length of their shift. One of the main reasons that children are desirable to these factory owners as workers is because their hands are so small, they can be taught to do the minute and detailed work that some of these copies require. I'm going to try and insert a link here, if it doesn't work, I think you can copy and paste to see it:


http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/28571321/26411480

This article really says it all........although it doesn't specifically mention dolls, to the people who are marketing these copied goods, it doesn't matter if it is a handbag or a doll, if it can make money, they will copy it, no matter what the cost.

 

And your example is...

I understand what you are saying, but no company is going to bootleg a product they cannot sell for a profit. This requires demand for said product. Supply and demand. It is economics.

A brand bag sells for a few thousand dollars and more. The inflated prices increase the demand in lower income brackets for the copies. How that business conducts itself and portrays itself in advertisements (sexy and beautiful) increases demand for not only its product that is highly limited, difficult to obtain and highly priced, but also increases demand for similar products. And, when a new Brand X bag is released, manufacturers race to copy it because the bag is not accessible to many whereas the copies are mass produced and readily available at a fraction of the cost. Cost, however, is only a part of the equation. Each individual has different perceptions as to what is good value for the money and it is especially diverse when it comes to hobbies like doll collecting.

BJD dolls, on average, are competitively priced. Over the past few years, the price increases have been very small likely due to increased competition. There are more dolls more readily available around the world. Some companies now even offer layaway. But, sometimes, dolls are not available in particular regions and they are difficult to obtain and the prices may be seen as not good value for the money for some individuals. If one were to look at the average income in China, as an example, it was $2000 as of 2005 (SOURCE). If a doll is demanded in that particular market and the average doll purchasers income is similar, there will be someone who will make a copy available if the doll is not competitively priced for that specific market. A $2000 doll, for example, will not do well in any market where the average doll purchaser salary is $2000.

The global economy is complex. But, the basic idea is that in countries where income levels cannot support brandnames, copies will be made and this is not only China. If American salaries drop, as an example, due to the slow pace of economic recovery the same could prove true in the American market as well. This not only includes dolls, but any luxury like movies, handbags, etc.

Part of it is price. Part of it is the particular market. Part of it is supply and demand. Part of it is accessibility. Part of it is the complexity of a global economy. It is not one thing. But, what will always be true for copies or fakes is that there needs to be a demand so that the maker of that copy or fake can profit from it.

 

What happens to the retail value of the REAL sculpt when copies are passed off as originals?

Most likely, it goes down, because people aren't buying from the actual company. But there are probably enough people who will buy directly from the company's site for that to not happen.


What about resale of such copies? Here or on Ebay? Will it drive prices lower?

As I said, there are probably enough people who still buy from the legit company. And as much as people sing the praises of the Marketplace, I'm wary of such places, and also Ebay, because you never really know what you're getting until you receive it. At least with companies, I know I'm getting a product of a decent standard - but I AM getting what I bought.
But I still think it's highly unlikely overall prices drop. For every 1000 legit sellers (here or Ebay) there's only one or two scammers. So, it's not like the BJD hobby is heavily bootlegged (as far as I know), compared to DVD and Music industry sales. I think, the more common the product, the more we worry. Like handbags on Canal St. BJDs seem to be attributed to a few people compared to how many people like movies or songs.


What if the seller of one of these dolls also bought it second hand and did not know the difference?

Well, those is the breaks. Not everyone has trained eyes when it comes to BJDs. Not everyone can identify sculpts well - or at all (like me). One seller isn't going to break the bank. And I'm sure there are people who did not know it was a copy. People may have these dolls now, and not know, and may never know. And to that I say, good for you. I do; not that I condone improving the craft of copying these dolls, I just think I'd consider that getting your money's worth. It's a bit of luck, yes, but if you paid for a doll you thought was legit, it's not legit, but you haven't had any issues with it, good for you.

If that person is now selling the doll, it would be hard to prove the sculpt didn't come from them. It's sad, but there's no way that I can see where they can go back and point to the previous owner. Maybe THEY bought the doll second hand, too? Who knows how long the list of owners are?


What long term consequences to the hobby and the value of ABJDs do you foresee if complete copies continue to surface?

Well, the same you get with handbags on Canal St., I guess. People want handbags because they're pretty and a status symbol. People buy copies, knock-offs, and similar bags to gain that same sense of status. Like they say now, women buy these bags to 'test drive' them for the real thing -- but I think that's such a load, and anyone who wants to say that is trying to keep the bag sellers alive. I bought a knock-off a few years back, and it wasn't to test drive anything.

But, as far as I know, expensive bag places - Channel, D&G, etc. - haven't lost business. And neither will the ABJD industry. Only songs and movies were affected because everyone likes songs and movies. Only a select number of people like BJDs, or even handbags, so denting the industry seems unlikely.


What could be done to prevent it, how to recognize these "Doppelgangers", What toll it might take on current sculptors and future work they might do?

Well, experienced handbag connoisseurs tend to find certain tell-tale signs a bag is legit, or a knock-off. Like the stitching is a certain way, or that the tags inside say they should be made in certain places. We just need something like that. Of course, not everyone's going to know - or care - if their doll is a 'fake' if there aren't any issues with it when they have it. But having some sort of symbol attached to the doll won't hold back for long - look at the counterfeit money issue we have in the US. The US Mint is constantly trying to create money that won't be able to be copied. It may be hard, but once they find a way, they have to keep going, because scammers always find a way, eventually.


Buying a knock-off handbag, I have no issues with. I have one that actually is pretty good quality, and I love it! Does it make me unhappy that big companies charging so much for a bag lose my business? No, because they probably were never going to get it in the first place.

I bought a fake bag because everyone I knew had done it. I know, that's sad, but I don't actually think so.

But I won't go buying a knock-off because it looks just like a very expensive bag. I like the bag I got, but since then, I have gotten two more bags, one from a discount store, and one from Target (which is actually a bag for schoolbooks, but I've been using it as a purse, too because it's shaped like a Hobo bag).

Now, would I ever do what I did to get my knock-off again? Probably not. Knowing you're buying a knock-off bag, and going into the secret back rooms in a Chinese spa just achieves a certain, personal thrill. You hear about your friend or someone getting a knock-off in the city, and you hear how they get it, and you want your own experience like that.

And, ok, I'll martyr myself a bit - I bought it to look a little more than I was. My dad has been out of work for almost a full decade, and since then, we've gotten by on my mom's salary. Since being at school, I don't bring a purse; I use my shoulder bag if I'm going to class, and only use my purse if I do something on the weekend. So, do I want to shell out big bucks on something I won't use too often? Doesn't make sense to me. So I got it, and it was awesome! I don't regret doing it, but once is enough for me. Am I supposed to feel bad? Because I don't.

 

Exactly! I got in touch with a legitimate distributer of Loong Soul on Taobao some weeks ago, they take paypal and are willing to ship to the US. AND the price would be much much cheaper than on Loong Soul's official English site! An Emily would only cost around $290. Same thing with Coco tribe's official Taobao store, a Ruby would cost only $92 there while it's priced at $170 on the English site. If you knew Chinese you could really save lots of money rather than buying from English sites!

 

I think the main issue is... well. If I look at a official Luts doll, that is 500 dollars, and then I see a knockoff that looks almost the same, with lower quality, and it's 200, and i go for the cheaper doll, well... eventually, maybe more people get that idea. Oh, it may be lesser quality/not official, but its all I can afford! Soon, Luts has to drastically mark their dolls for posterity or goes under. After all, it's not like millions of people buy dolls a day.

Flat out, it's theft, and hurts the people who make the beautiful items we love, so why would we allow it? Me, I'm an artist, and I know how knockoffs can hurt a single person, and I know it can be just as bad for an entire company. That's all.

 

2 elphsnt: I know all about supply and demand. Even if it's a rather cheap product that's easily accessible and is popular and not rare (for example say Hello Kitty Sanrio products), there are still many knockoffs out there too. And are there people that still go buy those knockoffs? Yes. Some people just doesn't care if it's a bootleg. So is that hurting original maker? Yes. Will bootleggers ever disappear? Sadly no.

And even if there's no demand for it but it exist, demand may start to appear. A person that wasn't even thinking about buying a bootleg, sees one, may end up being tempted and buying it still. So it may not all about just the DEMAND issue when it comes to knock-offs. And there are people who doesn't know they are buying knock-offs too who will start to contribute to those sales too.

Everyone's out there to make money when they sell and make something, bootleggers included. But what bootleggers are doing is wrong, unethical. Original makers are not. That is the difference.

 

I know THIS is going to sound bad, but I don't look down on you for that. I won't be all righteous and bothered and contemptuous. In all practicality, however, I have heard the resin is much poorer quality. I am in no position to pretend money doesn't matter and that you should always follow what is right. Personally, the dolls I want, the real originals, are already fairly priced and affordable so it doesn't apply to me. But not everyone has the money to splurge on 300$+ dolls, I know I don't. I'm poor. D: But yeah, other than guilt and poorer quality, I don't see any true practical problems outside of the love and respect for the artists themselves. I'm not trying to sway you... I don't even really know what my own point is with this. Take from my reply what you will; I have no airs here.

 

I'm going to be really blunt here: then do without until you can. It's what I did, for several years. Don't steal from the very people you praise for their artistry. This is not an industry with huge markups from what I have seen, outside of the secondary market. The stuff people are selling already is pretty fairly priced for what it actually is.

Which would be well deserved for contributing to theft.

Which could make you actually ill from contaminants and fillers, though honestly I'm torn here, because I actually think that someone buying one of these knowingly and screwing the artists over deserves to suddenly develop as many strange green rashes as they have exposed areas of skin... sadly, the reactions probably aren't that bad.

Because we obviously don't need any of that, now, do we...

 

If you're going to quote and direct that at anyone, it isn't me. I couldn't do it because I wouldn't feel right and because I'm willing to wait until I can, like you. I am an artist, although I don't make dolls, I use other medias, and I am willing to pay. Reply to the person I was replying to, not to me.

Because your sarcasm is not needed, I was just being realistic. I was arguing the practical pros and cons of this, not the moral or ethical. Morally, no, I couldn't condone it. In practicality, she makes a good point. Nevertheless, I am not, will not, would not and could not take part in buying one of those and slapping the artists I respect in the face.

All I'm saying is, I'm not the one to direct your annoyance at. -__- I was just discussing my thoughts on that girls' post. It was from an objective and emotionless outlook, which happens to be the way my logical mind works. Feelings of indignation, or anything like that don't have any place in what I was talking about which makes me think you're a little immature for responding with rather rude, biting sarcasm.