The consequences of copied dolls

Since you made me kind of mad, I thought I may as well post the quote I put on another thread of the same topic. This explains my feelings pretty well.

 

The problem artists have when someone copies their work is that they just can't compete with them cheap knock off. Their dolls don't sell so the company goes under. The knock off company then goes off to feed off another artist to make a quick buck. They don't have the overhead the legit company does. They don't have to pay sculptures and they can use the cheapest materials (which may be toxic) because it's not like their company has to be legit and comply with any laws or have to worry about customer service or anything. The customers will complain to the real company, thinking that's where the knock off came from.

For instance... I was very active in the UFOcatcher community. The problem they have with knock offs is that those plushies weren't made with "all new materials." Their paint could be toxic and the stuffing could be full of bugs and hair. Knock offs don't have the quality control the legit company has to have.

And you know how we worry about "sweat shops?" Knock off companies don't have to worry. That's where the cheap labor happens to be and those companies pass on that cheap labor prices to you.

Also... check out the doll company's website. They will sometimes post in their news who isn't an authorized seller. AoD has that. (although their dealer page isn't up to date... Junkyspot was added and Stella's Dollhouse in OR is now Stella's Treasures in CA... I know because I met Stella at a doll show.)

 

You begin the thread knowing it will "sound bad". I have trouble believing it's such a shock that someone replied with a strong opinion contrary to your own, because it does, indeed, sound bad.

Second, you mention price above all else, once your post is deconstructed.

Is it OK to slap artists in the face, as you put it, if the doll is more costly? It isn't an issue for you, you state, not because of any respect for the artists, but:

That doesn't speak to any respect for the artists, or even for morality or ethics, in any fashion. Just that it currently doesn't apply to you because you're not in the situation. I really don't know how I can get any clearer than a direct quote of your own reasoning. You clarify it in a later post, but sorry, the reasoning presented there is about money above all else. Is it really that shocking that someone will reply based on what you've stated?

You are certainly welcome to be furious with me for reading what you actually wrote in this post, and not scrolling through the whole of DoA to find what you've said on this subject or others in other posts before replying to a generic you -- which is what I and I suspect most people do in the Debate forum unless they're naming a name, quotes being used to demonstrate a concept only -- but I'll be honest, it's not something I'm going to lose sleep over. If I was arguing something other than your words and ideas as presented in the post, maybe I'd be that kind of stalker, but since I'm arguing your words and ideas, taking them at face value is pretty necessary.

 

Actually there are more concrete issues than respect (though I would argue that that is important too):

*It takes a way money from the original company -- abjds aren't inexpensive to make, and without profits, companies aren't going to have to money to create new sculpts.

*New hobbyists who are unaware of the bootleg companies and aren't familiar enough with a wide range of sculpts can accidentally end up buying one (I've seen it happen before) and are then stuck with a bootleg doll that they don't want, can't resell and may have serious issues (such as actually causing health problems).

*The secondary market needs a certain level of trust to function. While the bootleg companies have yet to try and sell a recast as an original, it is possible for someone to buy the recast and try and pass it off as an original on the secondary market. Now some of the recasts are pretty bad, and a more experienced hobbyist can tell that something is off. However, there have also been better quality ones appearing where it's not nearly so easy to tell from pictures.

So only talking concrete facts, it's still not a good thing to do. There really aren't any pros in the long run -- saving some cash in the short term does not make up for the long term negative effects. The reason it's considered morally wrong to buy recasts is due to the very real issues that it causes.

It's an expensive hobby, believe me I know. But when it comes down to it, if someone doesn't want to spend the money, then they don't have to spend the money and can find a different hobby that's more in like with their comfort level. Or do what a lot of other people do, and find ways to save the money they need. Not to mention that there are now a number of legit companies that cost no more than the bootleg dolls, and if you're patient you can sometimes find more expensive dolls for much less on the marketplace. Most people here are not independently wealthy individuals, yet they make things work without stooping to buying known recasts.

There is no shame in being on a budget and looking at less expensive legit options. But I have no sympathy for someone who knowingly and intentionally buys a bootleg, because they don't want to spend the money on the real deal. Someone who buys one without realizing what it is -- well that's a whole nother story, and they did nothing wrong. However, protecting people from that costly mistake is an important reason to come down hard on bootleggers and people who buy them knowingly.

 

Exactly Taco and Surreality.

I want to add to this that if companies don't make profit they won't cast any of their old sculpts either, because they won't have the money to buy the materials.

In the end it comes down to this: are you prepared to throw your morals/ethics/whatever you want to call them aside over a few hundred bucks? If you (general) know a doll is a bootleg and buy him anyway then that's your choice. Don't expect me to respect you for it.

 

I'm not furious I just once again don't know why you seem angry and indignant at me, who has stated several times that I wouldn't, couldn't, and will never do this, regardless of what my position is. Even if the doll I wanted more than anything else was 1,200$ and I found one on this website that was 200$ I would not buy it. End of story, I would just go without. I was, once again, putting out some ideas and thoughts on the practical matters of the issue, not the ethical.

I was responding to someone who said that she WOULD buy from this company. I was not stating my opinion, I was objectively stating the facts as I see them. Morals and ethics don't come into the argument of facts. That's all. I'm NOT condoning or justifying her opinion.

BTW, did any of you read my entire original post?

 

Taco wrote:

For me a lot of fun of collecting is limiting what I spend, and being patient--if there is a Volks doll that called to me, it's worth it to save the money, keep an eye on the MP, and learn all I can about Volks in the meantime. What makes Volks wonderful to have are qualities the recasts won't have--beautiful resin, superb posability and excellent workmanship.

As Taco said, if you really can't justify spending 1200 for a Volks doll, look for a less expensive one that appeals to your aethetic--I love Resinsoul despite the sometimes goofy posing ability--they have such cute sculpts and lovely customer service, and I can toss them about without thinking that it costs the same as my car And I can't praise the MP here enough--as long as you take your time, read feedback threads, and use your head, you can get very fair prices and some hard-to-find dolls. Real ones

What if the seller of one of these dolls also bought it second hand and did not know the difference?

This one interests me because I am more likely to get a copy accidentally than someone who buys exclusively direct from the companies. If someone could point to the distinguishing marks that made it a copy, I would chuck it; though hopefully I would know the line well enough to tell for myself and avoid that mistake, but I wouldn't keep it or sell it. I had one Souldoll head that had no plate, but I couldn't get any answer one way or another if it was a problem or not, and I put that info in the sales thread. Id' still like to know for my own info, and so I can pass that along to my buyer.

 

Seriously, the post I made is completely outside of my own opinion. If you want me to explain my long, involved opinion on why I think it's wrong to buy those dolls just so you can stop being so rude I will, but until then, please leave me alone. I was just discussing something. Just because something is unethical does not mean its discussion needs to be reduced and limited to different versions of the same post:

"It's bad! It's super-bad!"

Yes, we're all aware that it is bad. However, the person I was talking to was obviously not swayed by that argument so I wanted to bring up other points in a practical way outside of ethics because she didn't seem concerned with it. Please stop flaming me. It's very depressing to log on and have angry replies.

 

I read several of your posts. I know you said you wouldn't do it yourself -- what I was addressing was your response to someone who said they would possibly buy a recast do to money issues. You said that 'beyond guilt and quality there were no practical reasons why not' or something like that. I was pointing out that there are very practical reasons why it's a very bad idea and why *I* don't feel sympathetic towards someone who would buy a bootleg doll because they were short on cash, and why buying recasts should be discouraged.

There is a good reason that this is a touchy topic for a lot of people -- bootlegging causes very real problems, which is why it has become such a moral dilemma. Ethics do come into discussions of facts when those facts support whether or not something is considered ethical. It's not just unethical because it shows disrespect for the company (which is a less concrete idea as it does not necessarily suggest outright harm), but because it has a very real negative effect on company profits, can cause market place issues, and fool unsuspecting newbies who are purchasing dolls in good faith. Sometimes you get into dilemmas that really are of a personal nature and are up to individuals to decide -- they aren't community territory. Buying bootleg dolls isn't one of those kinds of dilemmas. It effects the community, and the community does police itself and discourage unethical behavior that can genuinely cause harm to it's members.

You also have to realize that this is a debate, and people will disagree with you -- sometimes strongly. That's why topics like this aren't in the GD subforum.

 

I know people will disagree, of course, even though I feel they should direct it towards her and not I. Still, I wish they would disagree in a less hateful way.

"Is it OK to slap artists in the face, as you put it, if the doll is more costly?"

I really don't think I ever said it was OK, I never 'put it.'

That's a ridiculous distortion of what I said. I don't think I'll partake in any of the debates if this is how others on the forums 'debate.' I really did like the debates but... I'm unfortunately very sensitive and tend to take things personally, which is why I never took part in debate in school, either.

Also, I understand this is largely an ethical issue. However, those points have been made already. And as I said, 'I was talking to was obviously not swayed by that argument so I wanted to bring up other points in a practical way outside of ethics because she didn't seem concerned with it.' That's all.

 

Were I to disagree in a 'hateful' way, I promise it would be considerably more colorful and creative, since profanity and personal attacks are not permitted in any fashion on this forum. I'm also not the one making personal attacks, nor have I done so, since my focus is where it always is: on the issue.

I support myself with art/craftwork. I am stolen/pirated from daily. For every item I sell, ten or more are outright stolen. Yes, I do have very strong feelings on this issue. You, I do not know from a hole in the ground. This issue? I know far better than I would ever care to.

 

If heated and personal posts continue to be made into this thread it will be temp-locked so members can cool off. This is a "debate" thread and not a General Discussion - members WILL disagree with you and CAN state the reasons they hold fast to their viewpoints. If a member cannot read such posts without feeling stung then perhaps it would be best to not participate in the argument.

 

I believe in intellectual property, of course, but I don't hold in contempt the morality of buying a bought a copied doll. I don't disagree with pirating music either. I haggle. I'm a conservative, middle aged male at heart. So sue me. (I'll win because republicans have better laywers :P Lololol, it's a joke)

I don't steal from sick babies, or punch kittens. I don't think its evil not to value the art above the artist. As for knock-offs being as good as the originals; if it looks like a duck (or a Soom), and quacks like a duck (or a Volks), then I'm confident with its ability to be, more or less, a pretty good duck.

 

You don't see how the first portion of the first statement is utterly contradicted by the second?

Music piracy is closest to the issue I deal with. I can wholeheartedly assure you, when people pirate the products I make, they are certainly not respecting the fact that it's intellectual property they license the right to use.

 

As much as I know i'll be disliked for it I agree with you on this.

How often do people fuss on others for buying cheap dolls or for putting expensive ones in cheap clothing? To many people this hobby is about spending, how much or how little can effect the way others see you. I can understand how someone might want to buy well made knockoff from a well respected company instead of a legitimate cheaper doll from one that makes people say " oh look another fugly chinese cheapo, they should have just saved up for 3years for something better!"

 

If you chose to steal from the creator of a thing that you actually enjoy I have no idea how you think you will be able to keep enjoying that thing in the future? Have a little respect. Also, your statement has nothing to do with being conservative. What you are saying is simply unethical no matter what political posture you assume.

It is statements like this that leave me marveling at the entitlement of people in the world today. Pay for the work dude! Someone put time and sweat into it. Pay for the work and stop standing up for your rights to rip off honest people.

By the way "Haggling" is about negotiating for a better price. You can use the market place for that. Haggling is NOT about purchasing cheap illegal bootlegs that could hurt the hobby that you enjoy. You see, the first example is legal and the other one isn't. Seems like I am the more conservative person here because I actually believe that rules apply to me in this wild zany world.

 

I've been reading the posts after mine (as well as this big 'fight' going on).

HYPOTHETICALLY, (though as I said, I'm still not sold on the Marketplace or Ebay) if I did decide to go ahead and buy a doll from the marketplace, get it - thinking it was the real deal - do all the regular doll owner stuff with it, and love it just the same... if somehow, someone saw my doll and told me it was a fake, and showed me why, I think I'd be too emotionally invested to get rid of it.

I would have done the photography, making it clothes, taking it out to meets or cons, but by then, I'd have bonded with the doll. Does this mean I should still chuck her, just like that? If this did happen to me, I'd keep it. I'd hide the fact that she was a fake, not make her the feature of a pic or photo story on DoA, since the person who pointed this detail out to me was probably a member, too. But she's still be special to me. Am I still somehow 'morally obliged' due to the fact a company may have lost my business? I understand that this idea might change if the materials did affect my health, but if it had not...

Because the doll may have been a fake, but my emotions tied to it were not.

What would a person in that situation do?

I think it might be like getting a pet, like a dog (not for any show reasons, just as a pet). The person they get it from may say this dog is a purebred Chihuahua, and I may think so, but if I learn that the dog isn't actually purebred, do I get rid of him? Some people may sue because someone promised a toy version, but the dog grew into a larger version just by chance, and they want money back for it. But as long as I love the animal, he's healthy, and everything's ok, it wouldn't bug me.

So for me, if I loved the doll, the materials used didn't kill me or make me sick, and everything was fine, I wouldn't care much -- however, this scenario only deals with the person NOT KNOWING the doll is fake.

 

There are those people who do get way too hung up on what people are or aren't spending. However, if someone is worried enough about what other people think to not buy a less expensive legit doll because of it, then buying a knock off isn't going to be of help as they are not allowed on most bjd forums and are highly discouraged by hobbyists -- I can guarantee that it wouldn't get a good reception if people found out. And for all the naysayers, some of the less expensive legit companies have also developed strong fan bases. It just doesn't make sense to go for a knock off in that situation.

 

We can't excuse unethical and illegal behavior by claiming that an online community's materialistic attitude pressured us into it. It is just flat out wrong to steal from honest people, period. There is not excuse.

Also, I don't think this whole community is overly distracted by money. Look in some of the other parts of this forum where they play photo games and share sewing tips and you will see what I mean

 

As expected, you guys are mad. I apologize in advance to admit I -may- have been trolling just a bit.

All in all, I really like what Isenn has to say about the community being over distracted by money. I agree that the best part (if not the only part) of owning dolls is the fun of it all; the photostories, the character customization and creative aspect etc. Its a hobby. Hobbies transcend real or fake molds.

I would love my dolls just as much if they were from the manufacturer or from a knock-off molder. I would get them faced-up just the same, make their clothes with just as much care.

Thats all I'm saying, my dears.