The consequences of copied dolls

Oh, wait wait wait! It's not really a party until somebody mentions Hitler! nekomata_fuyu, will you do the honors? You've already flicked 'human rights' at us like so much dry snot, so the fulfillment of Godwin's Law shouldn't be far off.

Still, yes, the notion that a doll company's establishing & enforcing their intellectual-property rights is somehow tantamount to ethnic cleansing, that was worth a good snork. There is no preexisting right to steal; therefore copyright doesn't infringe upon anyone's rights. The community at large is still correct to look down upon bootlegged dolls. It seems fairly clear to me.

 

I find all this chatter about Copyrights etc...silly.

Bootlegged dolls are not tolerated on DOA (I don't care if your toothless granny gave it to you, sorry)
Bootlegged dolls are bad for the hobby because they will lower quality by filling the doll pool with poorly crafted rushed dolls.
Bootlegged dolls hurt the companies that bring us the dolls we love. Respect them. They deserve to be paid for their work.
Bootlegged dolls were a favorite of Hitler (can that count Jenny? I wanted to bring in Stalin this time to shake things up a bit but for your sake I will settle for Hitler)

We are not at the 25, 50, or 75 year mark with any BJD so talking about Copyright extensions and the like is out of scope. We are not even close to a copyright finish line, and these BJD companies are not rolling in cash yet either. They are still living off the dolls they made so please don't think it is going to be ok in 5-10 years to take their work because you feel they don't have a right to keep making a living from it.

I will also add that I too hate the way copyright is used to halt progress, creativity, and sharing BUT I don't have another solution to suggest. Herculean corporations are twisting the laws to suit their needs but that does not mean that the law was useless and without some merit. An artist needs to be able to make money in his life time to live and keep making art.

 

After 10 years of profit, a person/company has already made enough profit off of their art and someone else should get a chance to ride on their coat tails and steal their success? In what universe would that be acceptable? If I made a really nice drawing, sold lots of prints for several years, then found out some twit was making and selling exact copies of that, it wouldn't matter how old I was by that time---I would find them and whip their ass.

After all, what right does anyone but the original creator and perhaps their family/friends/whoever they designate to carry on their legacy to make profit off of their art? It certainly isn't a case of "Well this person has made enough money off of it, give someone else a chance!". Let that person come up with their OWN idea and make money off of that. A person copying a doll hasn't sculpted the doll themselves. They haven't gone through all the trial and error, all of the corrections, the hard work put into making something beautiful and new. And until they have, it isn't theirs, and they have no right to make some quick cash off of it pretending that it is.

 

As others have already mentioned, copying is stealing, because you are taking away the money someone might make of of his/her work. Taking away money is theft. You have illegally aquired an object.

You know what? If I had been working my ass of for a year to finish writing a book - meaning I had no income that entire time, because my work wasn't published yet - I'd be pretty miffed if someone didn't have the decency to pay up a few dollars to read it.
A whiny child's attitude doesn't give you the right to steal, nekomata_fuyu, no matter how you put it.

But yeah, seconding (or thirding) the feeling that you're a troll.

 

I think this sums up the consequences of copied dolls. It hurts the trust people have in the second hand market and that hurts the retail market too. These dolls aren't cheap, but people dare to take the risk of buying new dolls, because they can sell them should they not like the dolls once the dolls get home. If people don't trust the second hand market, because people are knowingly or unknowingly selling bootlegged dolls, it will become harder to sell and that means people become more reserved about buying new dolls too. This means less sales for doll makers and that means they earn less money.

Doll makers need to earn money. They need money to invest in a company and in new innovations. There's a lot in this world that is not for free and making dolls and running a company are not without costs. If they don't make money to cover the expenses they make during doll making and don't have money left to buy new materials to design new dolls, they will stop making (new) dolls.

Someone who produces bootlegged dolls won't use the money they earn to innovate (except for better ways to get away with piracy). A bootlegger won't create that new awesome never seen before doll, the perfect joint system people have been dreaming off, or something you didn't even imagine someone would make. A bootlegger will actually slow down or halt the creative process of others.

 

nekomata_fuyu : I am a creative person, an artist if you want, as, I imagine are many of the people on this thread to some extent or other. Your comments have clearly marked you out as someone who doesn't have a creative bone in their body.

I am so sorry that we creative types keep insisting on trying to earn a living from our feeble endeavors and now realise after reading your enlightening diatribe that I should be handing all my work over free to The Public so that they can do whatever they please with it while I starve to death in some rat infested attic. How selfish and short-sighted of me to think that I should be able to support myself by using my creativity, I am so sorry that, depending on the copyright laws of the country involved, people like you /The Public) have to wait 10, 20 years, perhaps my whole lifetime before you/The Public, can take my art and do something so much more worthy with it.

 

One other thing I want to add to this because I am sipping my coffee on a Sat morning

To the people saying that COPYRIGHT is straggling progress I would again stress that yes, I see your point in some matters. Yes it can be very stifling to the natural evolution of ideas. BUT we are talking about an EXACT copy and recast. Exact. Dumping someone's doll into a bunch a chemicals and producing it again exactly. That is not progress that is just cheap thievery. I don't need any law to confirm that in my mind thanks.

What IS progress is all the companies out there that saw what Volks made with BJD's and "copied" the idea and took it in their own NEW direction. Companies like Soom and Cerberus Project did that without destroying the market of the originator.That is because they were not replicating their work one to one, but rather drawing inspiration from it and doing something new! That is positive progress. There is a difference.

For example, if people doesn't want to pay higher prices for BJDs, there are lots a options out there to chose from. If you think Volks prices are obscene well, you can buy from a company that is evolving BJD's in another direction. There is no excuse for recasting. The hobby is evolving to net more types of collectors everyday. There is no copyright on BJD! Anyone can make one of their own and there are plenty of very pretty dolls to choose from on the marketplace.

 

Oh, what fun to read this thread! Thank God for trolls, they spice up the debates like there is no tomorrow. However, I don't think the poster in question is one, more like a young girl with no concept of real life, law or artistic process. I blame the DA and the likes for cultivating a whole attitude of "artistic borrowing," where visual art (the term used loosely here) is replicated and manipulated by different users without any consequences and responsibility to the original creator. To the generation who grew up with this attitude all art is simply "clip art" to be messed with.

 

I've seen some discussions about how bad it makes someone feel if another person copies their doll's face up. No comment on that right now, for my opinion about that. It is a completely different thread. Perhaps it will help some people who might understand or agree there can be a sense of infringement experienced by the person who created their character and face. Personally, I believe the taking of one sculpture/artist's doll and making a mold of it is much worse than that. We aren't talking about one copy then. I don't know if it is better or worse that it can be released with the same name as the original. They at least admit what they have done on the official sights of the copiers/sellers. But it is also kind of rip-off to use their names. After they leave the copiers as a brand new doll, how will it be handled on the secondary market? I've heard the copies do not compare in quality, but when examining the kinds of pictures we accept on our MP for example, how easy will it be to determine what you are buying? ... Just a second tier of the potential consequences. Copiers clearly have NO regard for the artistic process involved. They are out to make a buck. No other way to describe that. They can't be said to be filling a need for less expensive dolls. Other companies already do that the legitimate way. Some of our less expensive companies make some really excellent dolls. The copiers are hurting them too.

 

@ PamSD original post.
I have purposefully looked for recasts, out of curiosity, just to see what they looked like, whether they live up to the myth of thin resin and broken. Although I did see just one like that, all of the others I couldn't tell from the real company dolls, they look as legit as mine. I really couldn't tell one from a picture in most case.

I can understand why some people buy recasts for various reasons, different resin colour, cheaper..blah blah. I always buy my own from well known companies, Luts. Soom, Iplehouse. But I don't understand some people's extreme anger towards people that buy recasts, surely it's the buyers own decision and no one else's business. The reason is because I read a post somewhere they said 'Buying re-cast dolls is worse that rape' and that really sickened me, that someone could have that kind of an attitude. Since then I really opened my mind to them and their owners. I really couldn't hate someone for buying a fake doll. I don't judge what people do, all I care about is what I'm doing with my hobby.
DoA is a massive part of the hobby and the first place I came to learn about BJDs, I'd find it really hard not to be able to share a doll in the place I can share all my others. Taking pictures and having people here see them is one of the favourite parts of the hobby.

Buying one by mistake however is really sad, and more over, paying the price for a legit doll. I can imagine that being so crushing, I really feel bad for those people. This is why people need to research and buy from well known companies, not from ebay or random places they encounter cheaper type dolls.

How do these companies even get the mould? That's what I've never understood about re-casted dolls.

 

I'm pretty sure they buy a doll and make a cast off of it - that's why they're called recasts

 

Yes, it is someone buying one doll, then making a mold and then making a ton of fakes that they sell for hundreds of dollars... Instead of being a company with sculptors working very hard to create beautiful dolls.

Damage:
1. You could end up with a fake (that may have bad/poisonous resin--because who knows if the re-casters care?) and are spending your money on a cheap rip-off.
2. You could have problems selling your authentic dolls because buyers now fear buying a cheap rip-off. If you don't have all the documents and proof, you may not be able to sell your doll for a good price.
3. You make have to keep all your receipts and certificates and photos to have proof your doll is real when you sell a doll, which is a big bother.
4. Doll companies may lose money and fewer dolls may be created because the market is full of cheap stolen dolls. It takes more money to create a doll than just re-casting it. And if the buyers become used to cheap copies, the companies will lose business and not be able to create dolls.
5. Doll companies are trying to pay everyone for their work... Fake dolls can put honest people out of work.

SO... I really, really, really hate re-casters and those who support them by buying re-cast dolls!!!! They are evil thieves who are stealing from honest people who are trying to be creative and make a living. I am not worried about judging re-casters and re-cast buyers! You are horrible people, and there's no question about it.

Buying by mistake is another thing. That is the evil re-casters who have cheated the poor person who buys by mistake. That is another EVIL thing the re-casters do!

I hope they all get prosecuted under the law. And there ARE many laws against re-casting AND buying re-casts! Some countries don't have some, but that is because they obviously don't care about artists.

Copyright and intellectual property: I am ALL FOR IT! Why do people think they have a right to the hard work of artists and creators??? MAKE YOUR OWN CREATIONS OR IF YOU CAN'T--THEN PAY AN ARTIST TO MAKE SOMETHING FOR YOU. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO FREE (OR CHEAP) ART!!!!

*sigh*

Sometimes people really do sucky things... and re-casting and buying re-casts (on purpose) is very low-down and disgusting. And it hurts everyone else who wants to create beautiful things and those who want to enjoy these things!

 

heated debate in here lol i just found out about recasts today and im surprised on how many there are out there. Im neutral on this.

 

In the majority of situations the recaster makes a mould from an existing doll, which is why early recasts were shrunk and mis-shapen. Because the mould was made of the original doll, the resulting casts from that mould would be smaller than the original and the joints wouldn't fit together as intended. By accounts this has improved, but recasts will still be slightly smaller than originals because that's how recast moulds are made. There are no guarantees for the quality of the resin or casting though. A recast company doesn't have to stand by their product if it's full of bubbles and noxious (as many recasts were,) but it certainly harms the legit company if people think the recast they've bought is a legit doll and they go around complaining about the terrible quality of Company X resin.

In some situations (when dolls are being cast by an outsourced factory and not on a company site,) extra dolls are cast using the original moulds but aren't on the inventory. These dolls are basically the same as authorized and legitimate dolls, but they're sold out the back of the factory for low prices because the casting factory doesn't have to involve the company in sales. There was an eBay seller posing as a dealer for Angel of Dream who was selling these kinds of dolls. The existence of these bootleg dolls harm the company because the casting factory they have commissioned to produce their dolls is not only making unauthorized dolls, they're also undercutting the company's own prices and taking sales away from them.

Both recast and bootleg (unauthorized) dolls are banned on Den of Angels. Anyone found to be posting pictures of them, discussing them or including them in their profile or signature will be banned from the forum.

There really is no good reason to buy a recast. This is a luxury hobby - no one needs a BJD to survive. Just because you want it doesn't mean you deserve one at any cost. If you love dolls, surely you must respect the people who create them? Why should an artist keep making dolls at all if you plainly show them you despise them by buying copies of their work rather than originals?

Sadly it is demand and greed that has allowed the practice to grow - recasters would not bother to make these fakes if there wasn't a market for them. So that's why I don't feel there is anything bad about looking down on people who buy recasts by choice. It's their greed that has enabled recasting to take off. I love the excuse about "Oh, I was never going to order from the company anyway, so they're not losing anything by me ordering a recast." Okay. So you really love the sculpt enough to want it in your collection, but you can't be bothered enough to buy it direct and legitmately? What a ridiculous and nonsensical excuse.

The position of the forum on this subject is very clear;
Recasts, Bootlegs and DoA
Revisiting Recasts, Bootlegs and DoA

 

I think all companies should make the investment of STAMPED/SEALED (as in pressed, not just inked) certificates with a number that matches a number they've STAMPED into the doll. Sort of like a car title and VIN number.
Buyers could feel safer buying if a doll is accompanied by "proof."

 

Is ownnowone a safe seller? I've looked all over.

I've found this seller on ebay through a friend and she is ready to buy (she doesn't have a DOA) but is worried, and I agree that this seller seems a bit shady. I have a link if needed, they have a few dolls for sale, in odd ways. The prices for some are low and others seem about right, but the way they sell them by 'pick your option off the grids' half the time and by both owner and company photos with molds like 'custom vampire' and such. Even though it's a soom? Lastly though-there are reviews from buyers saying its gorgeous dolls. So if it is a shady dealer it's a good one. Just looking for some input?

If this is in the wrong place, please move it. I had no idea where to put it.

 

They are not selling legit dolls. This company is selling fake, recast dolls. Iplehouse is well aware of these fakes and has stated they are working on shutting them down.

 

When it comes to recast resin BJD dolls. Bottom line, I don't have any. I'm too new to the hobby and though I do know about them now I haven't actually gone there, shrug. Say what you will, to me a knock off BJD is no different than someone buying a knock off purse or shoes or whatever. It's no different then a fine art gallery selling copies of old masters as that, copies, and that is done all the time in the art world. Nobody is claiming them to be real and that's what makes it okay to me. If they were claiming them to be real than it would be art forgery and quite definitely wrong. There is one point in this whole argument that I'd like to make though. Since the very beginning of modern dolls there have been knock off dolls. Some good, some bad, some laughably bad, but even the most popular doll of all time, Barbie, she would not even exist today if someone else had not come up with her first.

That's right, as we all know the Diva of Pink, is a KNOCKOFF copied almost directly from the German Lili doll, and I ask you, where would the world be sans BARBIE? If you look from one doll manufacturer they're always stealing ideas from each other, sometimes even copying whole lines of dolls. That's the nature of toy making, always has been, likely always will be, and boy have there been some legal battles over who created what! Like I said, right now I don't own a recast. But I'm not going to sit here and judge people who do and make pariahs out of them because when it comes down to it how can I go there being the Barbie fan that I am?

I would not have my beloved Barbies if Ruth Handler had not taken a look at the Lili doll went, "Hmmmm..." then made a her copy of the doll that ended up spawning a toy empire. (and promptly got herself into legal trouble doing it) Of course ever since in turn her Barbie has been knocked off left and right. So there you go. I don't think there is a doll in my collection that HASN'T been knocked off at one point or another in time by someone somewhere if it was at all popular. I almost expect it really. If a doll is wanted by enough people there will inevitably be copies made.

It doesn't surprise me and it doesn't really upset me. It just goes with the territory of being a doll collector, I figure. The only thing that does totally tick me off? Seeing a knock off getting sold as the real thing. Making a copy is one thing, passing it off as the real deal that's just not cool by me, but otherwise I'm not getting too bent out of shape on that score. I just can't really. I can't look at Barbie and not be glad Ruth Handler did knock her off. I can't even imagine my life sans that iconic doll.

 

...you seriously don't see a difference between a gallery selling legitimate prints licensed by the estates of the artists in question and someone selling an illegitimate knockoff of someone else's artwork without the original artist/company having any say in the matter? Really? I mean, really?? Wow. Just...just wow. I'll remember that.

The real consequence of copied dolls is that they've wrecked the hell out of the culture of trust this community has built up over the last fifteen years. The faction that insists on paperwork with everything is getting larger and louder, and never mind that certificates are easier to copy than dolls, or that a lot of dolls never came with papers/don't come with them now. I really, really worry that this is going to take one more step out of the marketplace and get to the point where people start openly accusing owners of dolls without some form of documentation of owning recasts.

It's just a damned shame that this hobby's general atmosphere has been so broken up thanks to the actions of a few unscrupulously greedy recasters and the selfish, entitled asses that knowingly purchase their product.

 

It very common for students and painters who are not as well known to copy other painters (or at least their styles) and for people in the art world to even buy those "copies" and no, no one pays Monet's (or whomever) heirs usually. Not every old artist still has heirs to pay and even when they do it's often too long ago for copyright to apply. I'm not talking making copies of recent work where the artists are still living and modern copyright prevails. That's of course far different. But so long as the painting is sold as a reproduction, and labeled as such there's usually not much of an outcry. It's only when a copy is made and sold as an original that the crap hits the fan. But a lot of art galleries do sell well done oil and pastel copies of famous works as just that, copies. Some people prefer "as like" copies to prints because they have more color, more depth than a print can have.

But I'm not just talking about that. I'm talking about the whole culture of the knock off and how what's being said of the recasts does apply if we are honest about it. Dolls are art works, sure, to those of us who love them and appreciate them that way, but they are also and ultimately TOYS. You can go into practically any store and buy knockoffs of every major designer's work all the time and how little attention is paid to doing it, and yes that includes toys. Even the hideously expensive ones....

Those $2500 Jimmy Choo shoes I could never afford in my wildest dreams? They can be bought at your local shoe store for a lot less, knocked off. Does Jimmy Choo mind? Probably. But to me that's no different than seeing a knock off Barbie. It's still theft of his design, now isn't it? Theft is theft. That's what I am saying. Let's not be hypocrites about this. Someone knocking off a designer or Mattel or whomever is no different from someone knocking off a resin doll studio, and the industry itself is RIFE with it. They duly copy each other too, ALL THE TIME. Copied dolls will exist so long as there is a high demand for them. Like any other product, if it's "hot" there will inevitably be clones.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it will happen and unless you're willing to forgo everything that is a knock off of anything, and it's not exactly easy to do that actually considering probably 65% of what we buy is a knock off of some product or another when you get down to it, I don't think it's fair to sit there and get nasty with people about what they choose to buy. So I don't. I feel it's not wise for me to throw blame unless my own karmic slate is perfectly clean that way. Is yours? Well, mine isn't, not 100%. I admit that. In my mind I am always using knock offs, and it's no different to me from knock off dolls.

I wear yoga clothes from Target that are suspiciously close to a certain famous maker's design. I wear sneakers that look a lot like a certain designer brand. I eat or use things all the time that are labeled "generics" or "store brands" but that anyone with half a brain can see are total knock offs of said brand products. I own Barbies, and herself is a knock off, though legally that was worked out, and yeah, I own a few knock off dollar store Barbies too.

Fact, way back when My Scene dolls were actually selling well the one darker AA doll was impossible to find. I'm talking needle in haystack hard. But there was a dark clone that was even cuter than the actual MS dolls, and yes, I finally bought one or two to put on dark Barbie bodies so that my group of MS dolls could have a person in it who looked AA, not just bi-racial. Does that make me a horrible, terrible person? Gee, I'd like to hope not.

If I am then probably 90% of the people around me are just as bad. I'm just saying I can't go there. I can't sit there and condemn people for doing something that I see done all the time. Not legitimately. I have to be fair. Unless I am willing to give up buying ANYTHING that isn't 100% legit. I can't sit there and say knock off Jimmy Choo's and knock off Lulumon yoga pants are fine but knock off dolls are not. Not if I am truly honest. If I am getting pissy with people who buy knock off dolls than I have to get pissy with myself too, because I am not a saint, and not everything in my house is the original brand that always goes for full retail.

Like I said, I haven't gone there, and likely given all the horror stories I've been hearing lately about recasters ripping people off and messed up recasts I won't go there anyway. Stupid risk of money it looks like to me. But I am not going to see what might be a recast doll on a photo site, doll board, or at a doll meet up and then just roast that person. I'm just not like that. If they love their doll and feel okay about having it then it's not my place to call them out. Not when I've got a couple of really cute dollar store My Scene knock offs sitting on my shelf, fake Converse sneakers et all. I mean come on, that would be a good case of pot meeting kettle now wouldn't it?

I like other doll people. I don't want to fight that fight, put myself in the place of being judge to someone I might otherwise like a lot. I'd just rather play peacemaker if at all possible and not judge. In this war I am neutral territory, lol. It is themselves that they have to justify it to, and themselves they have to live with. That judgement it just won't come from me. I won't play that role, set myself up as some pristine authority of some sort. I just don't feel that legitimately I can. I'm not 100% completely innocent of ever using knock off goods. I'm just not that perfect. :P I don't feel I have any right to call someone on the carpet, I just don't...