The consequences of copied dolls

Actually, last I checked, it was illegal for Chinese bootleggers to copy items made in China, but as their laws of international copyright only is defined for items with a brand name on it; like Volks or Iplehouse headplates, it would be legal for them to copy most international dolls. Even Volks and Iplehouse dolls could then be legal as long as they don't copy the headplates, as it's then not a perfect copy and clearly a knock-off. Then again, I can't find enough information on it now, so I can't guarantee any of it. It is, however, probably the reason why most recasters don't recast Chinese dolls (you can deduce that from looking at the list of dolls they have).

I have to agree that the "expensive" factor and the "hassle" factor of starting an international law-suit probably stops many, though.

Brightfire, when you say millions of generic 19th century paintings, you mean different ones, right? There is again the difference. If there were millions of the exact same doll, the value would be extremely low, but if those millions were different dolls, only one of each, which just resembled each other in style, the value would increase again.
Same with the pictures of Lincoln; if they all were the exact same picture, thousands of copies, they likely wouldn't be all that interesting to collectors, and the price would drop.
Same goes with the dolls; a rare head may sell for quite a bit, but the more common it becomes, the easier to get a hold of, the more the sales value will decrease. That is what I'm talking about; many dolls which were rare, have been re-released so many times they have now become rather common, yet so many try to sell them for the same price they sold for when they were rare, and people aren't willing to pay that much anymore.

I see quite a lot of overpricing. It mostly happens with cheaper dolls (or with rarer dolls, which is justified), probably because the sellers don't see the point in the hassle of selling it when it's very cheap, but it also happens with other dolls. Generally, when I've been looking to buy a doll, I always check the second-hand market first, and in 4 of 5 cases, the doll I've been looking for have been, imho, extremely overpriced. In those cases, I either buy the basic from he company, which is often available, or I just wait for a re-release, and so far, that has worked just fine, and saved me a lot of money. If it however is a very rare doll I want, which I know won't be released ever again, I will pay the price, even if it's 2x or 3x the new price, and there again comes into the picture the rarity and scarcity.

 

To those of you who are anti-recast, what do you do think you can do about it? (Aside from the obvious: not buying recasts.) I think most of us agree that harassing or bullying people who buy recasts is wrong; being cruel to someone is not going to make them agree with you on anything. However, once you politely explain to someone how recasts hurt the companies and answer questions those new to the hobby may have (such as why the recasters can charge less and still make a profit), explain flaws commonly found in recasts, and warn them that they won't be allowed to post pictures of a recast doll on DoA and the stigma of a recast BJD, what more can really be done? Some people can have all the facts, and still choose to buy the recast over the legitimate doll for various reasons. I have noticed some companies making statements against recasts, which might deter some people, but hearing a random BJD collector saying "don't buy recasts because it's ILLEGAL and IMMORAL and WRONG" doesn't seem to be very effective.

So, the best thing to do would be to have the recast companies shut down. Have there ever been any cases where a recaster was shut down? I know sometimes Ebay will remove a listing if someone is trying to pass off a recast as the legit doll, but what could be done about Taobao sites? Report them? It seems like that wouldn't help since I believe the recasters often acknowledge that they are selling recasts. I just don't see much that individuals can do about the recast companies, since it's not like the recast companies are hiding what they're doing.

It seems like within the last fews years recasts have went from something that nearly everyone frowned on to something that really divides the community. I didn't read all of this thread, but I skimmed through various pages and saw that some people years ago thought recasts wouldn't have much of an impact because there wouldn't be a demand for them. Now, there is definitely a demand. I don't know if it's due to increased quality of recasts, an increase in the number of recasted sculpts, increased awareness that they exist, or increased acceptance from the community, but it seems like a futile battle for the anti-recast crowd. I just wonder if all the arguing over this is changing the minds of people who were considering buying a recast, or if it's just creating drama and stress for those who feel passionately about it. I'd like to believe that rational arguments from anti-recasters are encouraging people to support the companies, but it seems like more and more well-informed people are still choosing recasts. Or, maybe my perception is just wrong (it certainly wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong about something in this hobby!). Maybe there are just more people sharing their recasts online now than there were in the past.

As for the second-hand market, I think resales for some companies will be affected while others won't. There may be fewer people willing to buy a $2500 Volks limited, but probably most people would still buy a second-hand Luts MSD in good condition for $200 rather than get a recast for $150. Newcomers to the hobby may have more trouble selling, since their reputation isn't established and not everyone has proof that their dolls is not a recast, but people with a lot of feedback should be fine.

 

What more can be done?

- If they're my friends, I'll tell them they're wrong to buy a recast in no uncertain terms - just as I'd tell them it's wrong to illegally download MP3s from the internet or buy a knock-off Rolex watch.

- If they still insist on buying recasts, I'd probably end up not being friends with them anymore.

- If they're not my friends and are shamelessly flaunting their knowingly-bought recast doll, telling everyone how stupid they are to buy the real thing, I'd also tell them in no uncertain terms they're wrong (depending on their behaviour, I'd probably use slightly stronger language than with a friend) and then, I'd probably not speak to them anymore. Just ignore them.

- If they bought a recast doll by mistake and are devastated about it, I'd be nice to them, if asked, tell them what I'd do about that doll (hand it over to customs to have it destroyed as a fake item or ask customs what to do) but of course would leave it to them what to do about it. I'd still ask them not to bring it to meets anymore (since the people in my "doll-group" here are all pretty much anti-recast) - nicely.

- If they're on the internet and bashing doll-owners who're anti-recast and intent on owning "the real thing" - I'd either ignore them or bash them right back. Depends on my mood, really, sometimes I like to get in a good word-fight on the net.

I think what's contributing to the growing "popularity" of recasts is that kind of - in Germany, we call it "Geiz ist geil"-mentaliy (loosely translates as "avarice is cool" - it's the slogan of an electronics chain over here that sells stuff for quite cheap). That kind of "why should I pay XXX USD for something when I can have it for so much less?"-mentality that's only about the price-tag and nothing more. Combined with that air of entitlement that's been cited here multiple times. "But I want it - so I should get it! And if I can't get the real thing, I'll buy a recast cos I deserve to have that thing, simply due to the fact that I exist." It's those two attitudes that have been - and always will be - majorly pissing me off. If you really love that particular doll oh so much, you'll try everything to own the real thing - not buy a cheap recast. Even if it takes years to find it on the second hand market. If you get a recast instead, please spare me the story of how you love that doll oh so much cos I won't buy it.

 

It's true that there are dolls that sells for a lot more than what they originally were pricey, even if they aren't a limited edition and whatnot, but the selling and buying price is up to the seller and buyer. As long as there are people willing to buy dolls that are over the original price, there will be people selling those as well. There's so many reasons why people might be willing to do that and that's up to them.From browsing the marketplace often, I've noticed that while yes some current, still available dolls will sell for higher than original, those can often also be found in other sale threads for cheaper.

But back to recasts. I think that is has become a very complex issue, especially with all those new websites selling BJD stuff here and there, it's hard to tell who is real and who is not. There is someone in a group I was that recently posted a website that sold things from China, from clothing to household items, ect, and they asked if anyone knew about it. I went to check the BJD section and it seemed good at first, boots for 20$, pants for 10$, but then I saw a littleifee for 100$ and that seemed off to me, because even if I don't look at that company often, I know that they orginally sell for around 300$ and that's when I guessed it was a recast. However, sometimes it's not that clear, especially with websites like Taobao or ebay, where there are some legits sellers as well as recasters.

Education still is a key in fighting recast, but for people who don't start this hobby in communties like here were they can reach out to get started, it's still an hard thing to do. There probably isn't much to do about people who knowingly buy recasts, except maybe educate them about better ways to get cheap dolls other than buying fakes and make them realize all the work that goes behind making BJDs. We live in a world where most of the things are mass produced, and expensive generally doesn't equals handmade, smaller production stuff and where it's always about "cheap cheap cheap, get this on sale this week, I will take this instead of that because it's cheaper, ect" so I think a lot of people still apply that mentality to dolls.

 

Oh, and let's not forget that factor of "But I want it now - so I wanna buy it now! What, the original's not available right now? Never mind, since I want it NOW and absolutely HAVE to have it RIGHT AWAY, THIS VERY SECOND - I'll just buy a recast. That's cheaper, too, oh lucky me."

Instant gratification. I blame online-games for that, especially World of Warcraft. People losing the ability to WAIT for something.

 

Well, firstly, you cannot copyright a face;

Disney could not copyright Amy Adams' face - if they succeeded in doing that potentially other filmmakers and even Ms Adams herself could end up paying fees to Disney to use her likeness, so everytime you see any Princess Giselle or Enchanted products in the Disney store, it will be a picture of her in her animated form.

If you are making an exact Brad Pitt doll, or a doll of a character played by Brad Pitt in a film, you will need a license to produce these products. In the case of the Brad Pitt doll, you will need a license not because his face is copyrighted to him, but because the doll is being sold as part of his 'image' (not his appearance, but his personal 'brand') and his lawyers will be able to cease production on dolls because they may harm Mr Pitt's image. In the case of the doll of a character portrayed by Brad Pitt, the license will need to be obtained from the person who owns the copyright for the character, so a doll of Louis from Interview with the Vampire as protrayed by Brad Pitt has more to do with Anne Rice's copyright than it does Brad Pitt's.

As you mentioned, Tonner gets licenses to produce all sorts of character dolls, and Hot Toys has the licenses to make action figures of the Marvel Avengers cast. Volks also has certain licenses to produce character dolls - there have been many SD and Dollfie Dream LE dolls of anime and manga characters that Volks has been licensed to produce.

If you are using Brad Pitt's facial structure as an inspiration, and the result looks vaguely like him, but is not him, then no, you don't need a license. Most Minimees don't look an awful lot like the person they're supposed to be. Some hit on a vague likeness that is enhanced a lot when the head has a face-up and correct wig etc... but really the heads aren't an exact copy of a celebrity head and the makers of Minimee explicitly state this.

This really isn't the same as recasting in the slightest.

Licensed pictures of celebrities aren't licensed by the celebrity, in any case. They're controlled by the organisation representing the person that took the photograph, which is why magazines and newspapers can buy paparazzi photos and legally publish them even though the person in the picture may not have consented to the picture being taken, and it's why celebrity parents usually choose to have an official set of portraits done of them with their newborn so that they have some measure of control over the pictures.

You probably could have mentioned this earlier - it explains a lot about your stance, whereas your previous posts just smack of a 'meh' attitude. If you have a health issue that gets worse the more you're riled up that's a lot different to just lying back and accepting a bad situation because you don't care all that much

There are ways of supporting legit artists and discouraging people from buying recasts by doing it with positivity - you don't have to seek out people with recasts and shake your fist at them or shout at them, or do mean things. You really don't need to do that at all. There's no point preaching to people who think differently to you, but there is every point in educating new hobby members about the problem of recasts and how it is *always* better to buy legit. If people are bemoaning not being able to afford dolls, you can always point out there are legit dolls at a range of prices, some companies offer layaway, some dealerships offer layaway, there are bargains to be had if you do your research and don't be afraid to ask people who have been in the hobby longer if you're unsure.

 

I really don't understand the idea of these copied dolls. I know the real thing is expensive, but that to me is part of the reason they are so special. I work a crap part time job, I had to scrimp and save to get my doll and I'm still paying off my bill. The fact that I had to work and save hard for her made her all the more special. If I could just go out and get a cheap one then it would just be another bit of junk in my room instead of being one of the nicest things I own. If you don't wanna pay the price then I don't think this is the right hobby to be in. For me this means I may have only have one or two dolls, but the pride and joy I feel in owning them is worth it and given the choice I would rather have one legit doll then a room full of copies.

 

Emphasis is mine. I agree with you, but sadly if you say this to some people they will just call you an elitist and say you don't want them in the hobby It would be great if everyone could have a doll, but if they aren't prepared to pay the price of a BJD, there are loads of other doll hobbies - Monster Highs are inexpensive and really popular, for example.

I love Mulberry handbags - I now have 3. Lots of people might think I'm rich for having them, but no, I just love the brand and I research the brand's specific markers and I buy ones on sale or I go on a bargain hunt and find people who are looking to move their genuine Mulberries on. It's also worth saying that 2 of my Mulberry bags are main line ones, but the first one I ever bought was a Mulberry for Target black mini Bayswater - my gateway drug Designers for Target or Designers at Debenhams (in the UK) are like the Resinsoul of the posh handbag world, but I don't care, I love my bag to bits and it's the perfect size for what I need. It has style and pizzazz and holds everything I could possibly need. I'm sure lots of people would just buy a fake Mulberry bag just to have one, but I really don't support that kind of attitude. I think if you want the exclusivity of a brand, you should really save and get the real thing, otherwise any feeling you get from having a copy of 'that brand' bag, or a fake 'that brand' doll is just hollow.

If people are looking to get into the hobby and don't have $$$ to spend at first, it is definitely worth looking at Bobobie/Resinsoul dolls or some of the other up and coming Chinese brands like Camellia Dynasty and Loongsoul. BJDs do cost a lot, but there are ways to limit your hobby spending, and still have a beautiful doll. My Mulberry for Target handbag hangs proudly with my other Mulberry bags and when I had her my Bobobie doll was sat with my Volks dolls.

 

I know with other types of dolls/items, often there are marks to indicate whether an item is real. Of course if someone is trying to actually create a counterfeit they want to pass off as the real thing they could also copy these, but generally there are ways to tell the "real thing" from a fake.
I think one problem is when someone is either new to BDJs or does not belong to a community like this, they may not know the difference or not know that some companies are copying the style or molds of other companies. SO it is possible that people may buy dolls without realizing they are counterfeit or copying others work.
I know I did this when I was starting out buying a certain fashion, I bought a dress that was a replica of another designer because I did not realize. It was not listed as a replica but it was also not passed off as being by that designer, it was just listed as a dress from the company that sold/made it. So I did not know the design of the dress was actually copying the print of another designer until a lot later when I was trying to find accessories to go with it and I found out another designer had made that dress design first.

 

Both of my grail dolls and one doll I need to shell a character of mine are Soom limiteds. I desperately want them, but this does not mean that I am going to go out and buy recasts just so I can have them! I will wait, and eventually, I'll be able to either find them on the marketplace, or Soom will have another event and I will be able to buy one then. This hobby is all about patience, from the waiting for an ordered doll to arrive, to the waiting for a doll to appear on the marketplace or be re released. Sadly some people just don't possess patience in any quantity, and are likely to buy recasts rather than waiting for the real thing

 

Well, if they're the kind of people who actively seek to buy recasts cos they got neither the patience nor are willing to save up the money to get the original doll - as far as I'm concerned, I really don't want them in this hobby. And for that, they can call me pretty much whatever they want. It won't change my opinion.

 

Well at the end isn't it meaningless if someone has a recast doll or not? I really do not understand all that argue. If someone shows you a recast doll which for example is an Dream of Doll Ducan recast, well made with face up and clothes and you did not know about him being a recast, wouldn't you tell your friend: oh my he is cute! for example...and then if he/she tells you is a recast you do not like the doll anymore?...that is pretty much pathetic.

At last some people do not buy them because they don't have money, some people simply don't want to be active in some forums where you can buy second hand dolls because they get bullied because of other stuff what was not related to recast. So without having the chance to get a limited doll again because they fear to enter that forum once again, what they do? They buy a recast. I did not think that is something what should be jugded because i think everyone who is in the bjd hobby gets bullied once more or less some day or already has been bullied.
That is what i have read at other bjd related sites.

And at least at the end of a day a doll is a doll, no matter if recast or not. She is made of resin, has strings, a body and a face. She can be dressend and painted, and at the end BJD is a hobby where people wish to express themselves or simply wanna build an own character of a story or something like that. If we judge recast we also should judge minimees, dolls who have moded to look like an artist or self made dolls who look like an artist. It is nearly the same issue, because the artists wasn't asked and the recasters didn't ask for permission to and get money with it. And remember it have been famous companies like DIM making minimees and ppl have been sad after the service was closed.

BJD especially the dolls wanna give love to their owners and the owners wanna love their dolls and having fun with them, and at that point it is meaningless if it is a recast or not, the hobby should make us one instead of people arguring HOW the wanna live and go around with that hobby.

 

I haven't gone through to read every response here so forgive me if I have repeated something someone else has said but:
Couldn't you ask to see the certificate and original box of the doll you are purchasing as proof that they are real?
Or are re-casters producing the same boxes and certificates as other companies also?

 

@Noctariol Veladi: As for Minimees - go back a few pages and read up on how Minimees are NOT the same as recasts.

And the last thing I have to say about recasts is: Read this thread here.
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/s...-DoA-s-Rules-and-Statements-from-BJD-Artisans

Especially the company statements. In addition to recasts being illegal, I also have the following issue with them: If you say how much you love a certain doll and you say you're a fan of the company and then go and buy a recast - then I'll call you a liar. Simple as that. If you love a certain doll and company, it's simply a matter of respect not to buy recasts. If you do, well, in that case you probably don't love them as much as you claim, otherwise, you wouldn't steal from the company by buying a recast.

And as for the "oh, but I love X limited doll so much and can't get it anywhere and the company isn't selling it anymore, so it's not a problem if I get a recast!" - yes, it IS a problem. If you want something and it's not available for sale and you can't get it - legally - on the second hand market, that's just tough luck. Even the Rolling Stones already knew that "You can't always get what you want". It's just today's entitlement-mentality that makes people feel like whatever they want, they're entitled to get it, no matter if it's the real thing or a fake.

Oh, as for the girl showing me her recast Ducan - the example you mentioned - I'd tell her that I don't like recasts and ask her not to bring that doll to any of our meets anymore (and the others on my doll-meet would agree since they're all strictly anti-recast). Everything else depends on whether she bought him accidentally (which can happen, sad as that may be) or on purpose. If she bought him on purpose and doesn't see how that's wrong, we even might go as far as to ask her not to come to our meets anymore. And I don't see that as bullying, really. It's our meets, they're kinda like "mini-parties" and you can ask to your party whoever you like and also can ask people to leave your party if you don't want them to be there.

 

omg... you are seriously going to tell me that being bullied means you can go buy a recast cuz you are afraid to go on a forum? Really? I've been bullied my whole life and that has NEVER stopped me from doing things I want even though it may deter me for awhile. Being bullied on a forum is easily enough fixed. It's called blocking the person or reporting the bullying to moderators. If someone is getting bullied on a forum that does not mean that them buying a recast because they are afraid is right or okay in ANY way. I see that as a complete cop out and excuse for them being lazy/not caring that they are harming the companies they supposedly love. I'm not going to outright be rude to someone who buys a recast but I'm not going to fake that I like the doll or that I'm okay with it either. Because I wont be. If I was ever bullied on here I would be afraid to post again maybe but that wouldnt stop me from using the marketplace... ever. Those two things dont even go hand in hand because you dont post threads in the marketplace to buy things [other than the fact you need to have a high post count to access the marketplace]. You send a pm to the person selling them. Unless you need to put up a WTB thread. But no one can respond to those, they can only pm you and I'm pretty sure people arent going to bully others for putting up WTB threads. And if that did happen you could report it to a mod.

Another thing I try to tell people who are getting bullied is... IGNORE them. Dont react to anything they say and just continue to do what you want. If they post something to get you all riled up or hurt your feelings, report it. Eventually they will probably get banned for bad conduct on the forum anyway.

EDIT:

Also... when I first joined DoA last February I was really nervous and had a couple of my posts deleted because I messed up posting a few things because I didnt understand the rules right away. Even though I have pretty bad social anxiety until I get used to people/situations that involve socializing, I DID NOT let that get the better of me. I eventually started posting more on here and now look... 284 posts later, marketplace access, my very first doll sitting in my lap, and huge paragraphs on posts I make. It's really not that hard to get over social anxiety and being scared of bullying etc. I know from first hand experience. I felt like people were picking on me at first when I made my first few posts. And there are people on here that can be kinda rude sometimes but you just have to ignore them. Though it may take some time to feel comfortable, the only way you are going to be comfortable or feel okay on a site like this or any site for that matter, is to try.

 

Well excuse me but for me it is the same with minimees, no matter if you tell me it is not. It is because the artist don't get any money from it so does a company don't get money when somebody is doing recast.

And before you attack me, because i feel so with your second statement, i do not have a recasted doll because i never heard about it before one of my friends have been attacked badly for his recasted doll. Thought he didn't know it was a recasted doll, he was bullied a lot because of it and at the end he breaked up with the doll hobby. Is that the good way? I did not think so and what should you do with a recasted oll you get accidently? You can not sale them and also throwing it away is a waste of money. For me, and you can hate me for that, i understand people who want a recasted doll from a doll which once have been limited and who is not available anymore. I would not do that, but i do also understand people who wanna do.

Well and if he or she never tells you is a recast? Some recasts are made very well, you meight not see if it is a recasted doll or not.
What then? Will you ask people to bring there certificates with them to a party?
I think it is just a waste of breath, really.

I do respect your statement, but judging peoples for their dissicissions is wrong. Companies have problems because o f the recast stuff, i understand that as well but as it was stated before: "Whom of you didn't do an illegal think before like downloading mp3, watching stuff over the internet and such?" If you can say you never! did such a thing, then you can say recast is illegal and stop being friend with people who have a recasted doll but i am sure you too have friends who have illegal downloaded content on there pcs or watching films over the internet. Will you break up with them as well and say to them they should not visit you again?

That is just my opinion and i will not take any part in this discussion again because i know the most of you willnot understand it. Amen.

 

If he got the doll accidentally that is a shame and he shouldnt be bullied because of that. I can understand people making mistakes and accidentally buying them etc. and that is no reason to attack someone. It is also completely different from someone actually going out and buying one knowing it's a recast. I'm sorry for your friend and I think he shouldn't give up just because of one bad experience and people being rude. I also think that if he could, he should have tried to get his money back if he paid with paypal or credit card. If it was passed the file date for paypal and he didnt use a credit card, that really sucks and I feel bad for him :/ Also... unless the doll is hazardous to his health, I wouldnt blame him for wanting to keep it because of what he paid for it. But now he knows better and knows what to look out for when buying dolls and it's a good lesson to learn. If he ever gets any future dolls I hope it's a happier experience and that he can get passed this.

 

I said that, yes because it is what i know and heard. I was bullied a lot during my life as well but not over the internet so much.
Anyway i understand people avoiding such forums and then look for another way.
And very well the person did all what you said but it continued over Facebook and Twitter and you know yourself how fast *ironic* both of that sites react when it comes to bully. And at some point you can not ignore it.

I am not for recasted dolls, but i am also not against it. Even if i would not do it myself, i do understand those who do. Only thing i disagree is when a doll which is still available for a good prize is recasted or a doll which you can get easily else where on ebay for example if you dislike forums. But i understand if ppl wanna have a limited doll which is not available and hard to get.
Hate me for that, you can

And well i think you think to much about the bully topic, because at least everyone has another way to go around with. Some people can stand it, other people can.

Well he already quitted and his dolls have been put to trash even those who have not been recasted because he was told they are too and they are ugly and such...we tried to get his money back but the person who saled the doll was away from the forum where he bhought the doll.
That is why i hate all the disucssion about the recasted dolls, because dolls have been his first hobby he loved and because of such shit he was bullied so much that he thrown all of his dolls away.

 

That is really sad :[ I understand people can be very horrible sometimes and I also understand that it's hard to deal with bullies. But eventually you are going to have to be strong for yourself and not let them bother you. I cant believe they thought his other dolls were recasts too because of that O.o... see for the most part I dont think attacking people for buying recasts is good either. I can understand that people do things for many different reasons even if I myself would never intentionally buy one. But that doesnt mean I can go attack someone about it instead of behaving in a calm manner and explain to them why I think it's wrong. That doesnt mean it will change their minds but at least I did SOMETHING to try and get them to understand. Ya know?

Also being bullied on the internet is the worst because you can hide behind your screen and be cruel to people. I've read about so many teens committing suicide because of this x.x At least on facebook etc. you can block the people or make your account private. I have no idea about twitter though because I dont use it. I cant believe he threw away all his dollies D: I'd be soooo sad if I ever did that with mine D:

 

Yeah i hear you and i agree to you. I would be happy if some of them at least had try to help us because of his recasted doll, but instead they bullied. His other dolls have been: two from sooms, three from dod and one from ios...so all of them expensive once. His recasted doll have been a minifee, but he didn't know and to me the doll looked like the original. but ppl who had minifee find it out because of some...what ever and then started to bully...for him it was hell and now all his dolls are somewhere at a big garbage field. I am so sad for him and his dolls.

Yes, me too. I would never buy one myself but also will not judge people doing so. I will tell them why it is not good but if they still say they don't mind you just can let them be. so as you said, you can try to change their mind but if they did not want it is okay as well. You tried, and that is what counts.