The consequences of copied dolls

I'm kinda shocked he didnt try to give them away or something before throwing them out after all the money he spent. -sigh- I hate it when stuff like this happens to people x.x

Yeah I mean, it's not like you can go to someone's house and force them to throw out all their recasts and "rehab" them into only buying legit dolls. As long as we do are best to make people aware and also report any sales we come across to the actual companies if we know they are recasts, etc. then that's pretty much all we can do. We arent the police, we dont have copyright over any of the sculpts etc. so we cant sue them for the companies or anything else really. As long as we dont buy them or say it's okay to buy them, that's pretty much all we can do. If someone wants to buy a recast, more than likely they will end up buying that recast. Sometimes you can change their minds, other times you cant.

 

This exactly. If someone bought a recast doll by accident, because they didn't know any better, I certainly wouldn't bully them about it or be rude to them. It can happen. I also wouldn't bully a person who bought a recast on purpose. I just wouldn't want, either for them to bring her recast to doll-meets or have anything to do with that person at all. And tell them they're wrong to buy a recast and why. That's not bullying. That's pointing out your opinion. I can have my own opinion on recasts, just as they can have their opinion on recasts. If we don't agree on that - why should we have any further contact at all?

And again, as for the Minimees: Right, so if you think that Brad Pitt should be paid a certain amount of money for every Brad-Pitt-Minimee that's out there - do you also think he should be paid a certain amount of money for every photo a fan takes of him? And shows to friends or puts on the net? Because that's basically the same thing. Should a fan who sculpts a Brad-Pitt-bust in their spare time and puts pics on the net pay Brad Pitt a certain amount of money, too? Should every fan who draws Brad Pitt pay him for that? Cos that all kinda falls in the "Minimee"-category.

 

Me was shocked to when i went over his house, seeing al his dolls gone..i was like: O_O° wtf...but he said those dolls just made bad luck so yeah...

Haha yesXD That is true! We just can try doing so and if not we at least try and that is what counts^^

Well as i said it is my opinion and i didn't said you should love everyone who owns a recasted doll. But at least i know enough people who have no respect to others and bully instead of saying their opinion normaly. If you do not wanna have contact to such person with recasted dolls it is okay and as you said you will never agree with them so why having contact. That is normal.

For Minimees: Yes. Because most of the photos who have been made it was forbidden doing so. How often it is said: please do not make photos! and how often people do then? So taking money for it is a thing i totally would understand. About the pictures: you can ask on the other hand: why don't we give money to soom when i make a photo of my soom dolls? and also it is legally using a doll from a company as reference for an own character you wanna paint? Should every fan pay for that?...so where is the difference to recasted dolls? It is not allowed and if you take german copyright law it would be even not allowed to use a companys doll as reference for an own character but people do without paying money and without asking. The same it is with minimees, you take a living person and make a doll out of it without asking that person. The same it is with recast, they take a doll from a company and make a recast without asking the company. There is no difference for me.
But it is my very own opinion and i know i am not alone with that, so to discuss about that any further will lead to nothing.

 

Khell, The Raven -- thank you. I literally could not come up with a coherent response to that without resorting to my car salesperson words. (Car salespeople swear like the proverbial sailor. I have a very creative vocabulary.) I would say that I cannot believe we're still having the whole recast/Minimee argument still, especially given that we went over the actual legality of these things two pages ago, but that would involve having more faith in humanity than I do. Since it's already been gone over in exhaustive detail I see no reason to rehash it yet again. It does kind of appall me that anyone could suggest that I just handwave off the existence of a recast and say all dolls should make us want to "be one", because I sure as hell don't want to "be one" with a thief.

So instead I'll go back and touch on FrigidDamsel's question -- what can we do? I think we're doing almost everything we can, as a community. We tell the companies when we find something suspicious. We make our anti-recast stance VERY clear and do our best to eradicate them from the forum if they crop up. We as individuals tell people who are supporting recasts/recasters or actively thinking of knowingly purchasing a recast that that is utterly uncool, and tell them why. I personally refuse to deal monetarily with anyone who doesn't share my ethics; it's small, I know it is, but putting my money where my mouth is, so to speak, is just my little way of helping out (I'd love to be able to singlehandedly shove 'em out of the market, but I can't, so I try to content myself with saying that I'm doing my part to keep them from profiting on their ill-gotten goods).

I can only hope that eventually the outrage will overwhelm the avarice.

 

I've read through most of this thread and I must say that I'm glad it's here. It's very educational. People new to the hobby really need to have this information available to them. When I started this hobby I had no idea that recasts and bootlegs existed. I didn't have DoA available to me at the time and I had to do all my research the old fashion way(browsing many sites for many hours). However, I didn't come across any information pertaining to recasts. It makes me wonder if you had to be in the know..to know of their existence. I would hate to start out by purchasing a recast doll unknowingly. I didn't know about these things and could have easily fallen for a scam. However, I don't really use ebay and I don't like the thought of buying secondhand dolls. I wanted a doll that was made especially for me. So, I really stayed out of those markets and went straight to the bjd companies to find my doll. I guess I consider myself lucky in that regard. There wasn't any way I could fall for a scam, but others who are new to this hobby surely can and will. It's sickening that someone would go so far to deceive another for a quick buck.

I am completely against recasts. I don't like that they exist. I know that some try to justify their existence because of the cheaper price..but that's no excuse especially when there are many doll companies with affordable dolls. I only see the greediness behind that excuse. They only want what they can't have and will get that by any means necessary. Why save up $500 for your dream doll when you can get her for half that? Hell why even pay $500 for one doll when you can get 2 for that price. It's complete greed. There is no excuse for that. If you can't afford it then perhaps you should be looking at dolls in the lower price range..or actually save up the money. It's not that hard of a concept.

Then there are those who try the limited approach. They say it's okay because you can never buy those dolls again. This has caused some companies to bring back their limiteds. I guess some might see that as a good thing but isn't it hard on those companies financially to maintain those molds that weren't meant to be basics? It might also mean that we see less of newer molds. I see limited dolls as special. They aren't meant for everyone. Sure we'd all like to own such a special doll, but does this sense of entitlement of having to own them really worth bringing down the companies that work so hard to make such beautiful dolls for us? Just because they are unavailable to you because of your late entry in to hobby? Forget that! There are many people who have scrimped and saved every last penny to buy their super limited doll. Some get lucky and some don't but that doesn't mean those who are unlucky will do the unthinkable and buy a recast to suit their needs. Usually, those people will seek a different doll. Again, it's all about greed and thinking that you have to have the best of the best..even if that is a fake. It makes me sick to my stomach.

My favorite company is Iplehouse. They recently posted a notice about recasts asking their customers not to betray them and to please not buy recasts. I will always fully support Iplehouse. I even plan to only order my Ipledolls straight from them. I want to give them all my support and that means no second dolls as well. Seeing that notice made me realize that if things continue as they are one day we will lose our beloved companies. That to me is so horrible. I never want to see it happen. I really think people need to think long and hard about what their actions may set into motion.

 

I actually agree with you a bit on the reason why you dont do business with those who dont share your view. I mean, if someone told me they had a doll I wanted for sale and then I found out they were okay with recasts etc. I might get a little leery over if the doll they were selling me was legit or not. It could very well be legit and everything but just knowing that the person selling it is okay with recasts or has been around them would make me not want the doll. That's just me personally. I just wouldnt be able to trust that it was 100% real even with a certificate and box. It's just too scary. And that right there is probably most likely one of the main reasons why DoA is set up the way it is and has such a profound NO RECASTS rule etc. I mean... just because someone knows people with them etc. doesnt mean they are selling one but it can cause people to be afraid and I do believe this is one of the stigmas in the second hand market that has been causing a lot of problems. Sometimes recasts are done so well that it's hard to tell if it is real or not unless you are somehow an expert and can "spot" them. But even then you dont know for sure.

I'm also fairly scared of people buying toxic dolls. I mean probably not all recasts are toxic but just knowing that they are obviously made with cheaper materials most of the time and may or may not be done properly is scary. I mean just thinking about some teenager buying their first doll off of say ebay, getting it home, and realizing it's not cured properly and smells so horrible they nearly pass out... I mean... that's just SOO scary to me. That's one of the reasons why I just will never go near one ever. The idea of this bothers me sooo much that even though I want to buy dolls off the second hand market eventually, More than likely I will never buy one off of ebay etc. I'm pretty much sticking to the marketplace on here and still researching the sellers like crazy before I buy ANYTHING. [this is also why I basically have no limiteds on my wish list and have taken one off before... though I do eventually want to get a Sweet 16 Volks Megu and a volks SD17 male body but these are way way low on my wishlist for this reason and because volks is the most well known company to have recasts].

 

See, for me it's not really that I doubt the doll would be legit. I really, honestly do not trust the secondhand market any less because of the recast thing; I'm a pretty firm believer that researching feedback, the doll's provenance, and good old-fashioned common sense make the secondhand market every bit as safe as it has been. For me, it's that I do not want MY hard-earned, legally-earned money going to line the pockets of anyone who has proven they endorse dishonesty. I value integrity in everything, and I really don't like the idea of dealing with people that don't place the same value on integrity that I do -- and I will be damned if I allow anyone who doesn't share my ethics to profit at my expense. The issue with recasts, as I see it, is very much NOT the secondhand market, at least not the one here on DoA -- it's the people who knowingly and willingly purchase recasts knowing exactly that they're recasts and stolen property. They could buy it and intend to keep it forever, or sell it truthfully labeled as a recast, but the second they knowingly buy a recast they label themselves a thief in my eyes, and that's the end of it. You (this is a generic you, I definitely don't mean you specifically!) could be a perfectly forthright person selling a perfectly legitimate item, but if I know you own a recast that you purchased purposefully, knowing damn well it WAS a recast, then I don't want jackshit to do with you.

I won't let this take the limiteds off my wishlist, nor will it keep me out of the marketplace. Honestly, for every person that vows to never touch secondhand dolls again because of the recast scare, that's one less person to compete with me for what I want! XD But in the end, what it really boils down to, for me, is that I refuse to let thieves dictate the terms on which I enjoy this hobby.

 

No matter what sad experiences you've (general) had in life, it never justifies doing something illegal. You can sympathise with someone doing this, understanding what made him/her do it, but you should not condone it.

There is a big difference between understanding why someone would act in a certain manner, and overlooking what they do.

I agree with this and wanted to point out, yet again, that it is never okay to be rude and intimidating towards those who own recasts. The best way, I think, to tackle the issue of recasting is to go after the people distributing these bootlegs and informing potential buyers and newcomers in this hobby of the issue. And since our community is already very active in this regard, I don't think we could do anything more.

 

Right -- rudeness gets you absolutely nowhere, and intimidation is just not on no matter what. There's a difference between being firm and being rude, and I'd hope that people would know where that line is drawn. Being an asshole in a good cause is still being an asshole, and it tends to undermine what you're trying to accomplish.

 

Yes see I was trying to say I agree with this aspect too but went off on a tangent and then completely forgot what I was going to say. lol. But both what I said before and this will definitely sway my decision when I decide who to buy from. I'm just naturally cautious when it comes to purchasing things on the internet so research helps a lot ^^ I dont mind buying straight from dealers or companies that are known to be reliable, it's the second hand market that scares me a bit because you never know if individual people are being genuine when they are trying to sell stuff. We put A LOT of trust in others on this forum as well as ebay, amazon, etc. and even people with stellar feedback have been known to take a nose dive and fall off the face of the earth. So yeah... It's just about being smart and knowing what you are getting into when you purchase a product.

 

@Noctariol Veladi Actually, there's a difference between photos you take of some person in the street and of a celebrity, at least in German law. We got something that's called "Recht am eigenen Bild", which means that, if someone takes a photo of me, they have to ask my permission to publish it anywhere. And I then can tell them "yes, but only if you pay me" or "no, absolutely not" and they have to stick to that no and not publish it or else, I can sue them.

Celebrities, however, are different. This applies to actors as well as politicians, sports people, etc. They are "Personen des öffentlichen Interesses" (persons of public interest) and thus, may be photographed without asking their permission (and without having to pay them money) when they step out in public. Of course, it depends on the situation. It's totally ok to take pics of Brad Pitt as he walks along the red carpet at some movie premiere or when he's at a gala or convention or some other event. You don't have to pay him ANYTHING for that, either. Because he knows fully well he'll be photographed and if he weren't ok with it, he wouldn't go there.

It might NOT be ok to take a pic of him when he's dining at a restaurant with Angelina and the kids, cos that's obviously private business. Or take pics of them at their home (paparazzi - very controversial, not only in the field of journalism).

As for Minimees, as far as I'm concerned, they fall in the category of "fan art". But I can see where people might disagree. Other than that, as it's already been pointed out (correct me if I'm wrong), a person can't be copyrighted, thus, making a Minimee of a person isn't strictly a violation of copyright. Especially since most Minimees do look a little (or a lot, depending on the sculptor and company) different from the original. (Characters, on the other hand, can be copyrighted, as far as I understand it. So you can copyright Marvel's Loki - but you can't copyright Tom Hiddleston- right?)

 

Recasts are the same thing as having stolen property. If you knowingly buy something that is illegal and unethical, you are doing a bad thing--and you are supporting the theft. The doll may be pretty, but that doesn't change anything. A copy of a Luis Vuitton bag may be nice-looking, too. Or a counterfeit $100 bill may look as good a real one... but using it and passing it on to others is still totally illegal and unethical.

Boxes and certificates--- these can be copied, or bought from someone else. It's a good sign if the doll comes with them, but it's not 100% proof the doll is genuine.

Nobody here would bully a person who mistakenly bought a re-cast doll.

People who knowingly buy re-casts should rightly not be allowed on any legitimate doll board. That is not the same as bullying. If you are participating in something illegal or unethical, then you should understand that there may be consequences.

Having no money is no excuse for buying re-cast dolls. Not being able to get something rare is also no excuse. People who counterfeit money can complain that they don't have enough money so they make their own, but it's still illegal and they should be prosecuted and thrown in prison.

EVERYONE has to deal with not having enough money and not being able to find rare items. We all just deal with it. We don't STEAL because of it (or at least, we shouldn't!).

As for the consequences of re-cast dolls... we wouldn't have to have these debates and discussions if there were no re-casts. It would definitely be a nicer world if there were no re-casts!!! and they poor guy who was "bullied" because he had a re-cast wouldn't have had those problems if there were no re-casts. Re-casts are causing head-aches for everyone who has to worry about proving their doll is the real thing if they want to sell it. It makes worries for those who are buying dolls. It makes less money for people who create dolls. It's just awful and evil and disgusting all around.

 

It's stealing pure and simple. Stealing from the original artists as well as the buyer. I think that the fear of getting a recast could make reselling one of your dolls harder and i'm guessing even CoA could be fake as well. I think though if we are all careful and alert others if we find a proven problem seller then hopefully it will have a negative effect on their sales and stop the recasting. Also if a doll is offered at an obviously low price then chances are it's a fake. I will only buy from sellers with good feedback or direct from the company or a really well known dealer.

 

I don't personally care if someone has a recast and loves the doll and spends money and time on it just like we do with our legit dolls. But what I worry about is if one or several persons starts selling them as legitimate dolls and you buy them at, or up to, full price. With a small hobby community like ours that would have severe reprecautions. We have to be able to trust each other.

There has always been ways to con people out of their money in this hobby, and buying and selling recasts isn't something new in particular, but it seems to have really started blooming as of late. Fewer and fewer people care and claims that its all a-ok. Which it isn't, not really. People who previously would not spend money in this hobby would either drop it or admire it from afar, but now they have found a backdoor in through cheap recasts. It seems to be a direct reaction to what some people percieve as "elitism". And sure there is a lot of it in this hobby, but any hobby where the base object can cost everything between 500 to 2000 dollars there is bound to be elitism. Does that excuse buying recasts? These dolls aren't exactly huge brand names like Chanel or D&B. They're tiny, independent artists. Heck, I download music but if there are artists I admire I will fork out the money to support them.

The ultimate question is; will these recasts diminish the value the public set on the dolls? Will getting the cheap knock-off become so wide-spread and accepted that buying the real deal would be frowned at as wasting money? As materialism and elitism? When I started this hobby it was perfectly normal that the dolls were expensive, and if you were willing to join you either had to be in a good financial situation or you saved. You're buying art, after all, and there is a saying in the art industry that a piece is only as much worth as someone is willing to give for it. If people become more willing to pay 50 for a knock-off than 500 for the real deal... .what will happen to the real deal?

 

Perhaps it's the lack of social stigma that has allowed this problem to expand. Imagine how much more slowly this would have happened if recast owners were universally shunned by everyone else in the BJD hobby. If there are no immediate and tangible consequences - like companies refusing to sell to them, or being banned from certain forums - then there is very little perceived risk in purchasing a recast.

Therefore, to say "I don't personally care if someone has a recast" is facilitating the purchase of recasts in an oblique way. It is saying that you won't penalize recast buyers in any way for wrecking your hobby.

At which point, why bother worrying about the Devaluation of Art? You won't even defend the rights of the BJD artist with words, which cost you nothing.

 

...I love you. This is beautiful. Can I frame it?

 

But some people don't care, it's hard to force people to care about things they aren't worried about. All that can be done is trying to educate those people to the realities. I, for one have certainly discovered many things about recast I never knew, just from this one thread!

 

Unpopular opinion time: I don't actually think recasts will kill the hobby. Recast figmas, nendroids, pinkyst, and other anime figs are extremely common, and they haven't killed legitimate figures from being made or the legitimate hobby.

I think looking at the figure community for cues on how to deal with bootlegs is a good idea- they educate themselves on how to spot fakes, post tutorials, communicate about which figures have been bootlegged, rather than living in fear that 'i might buy a bootleg so I can never buy a second hand figure ever again.'

I'm not denying there is a financial impact to the companies from bootlegs. I have friends who sculpt figures, and they had one of their sculpts taken and recast in bulk by someone in China. It stinks, and fighting it legally is like trying to dig a swimming pool with a spoon. I won't deny that recasting could kill a small company or single casting artist. But kill the hobby as a whole? Probably not, if we use what has happened historically with similar products (anime figures, as I used in my example.)

Don't fear the second-hand market, just be sure you know what's out there. Learn how to spot a fake, learn what dolls are actually being produced as fakes (not every one is, just like figmas/nendroids, it seems like the most popular ones are what is targeted.) It'll deal a second blow to the hobby if recasts dry up the second hand market, instead of just making people be more cautious.
.

 

I understand what you're saying and that is also why I am so on the fence about it(not whether recasts are ok, but whether I feel entitled enough to care what a person owns). It seems to me as it is an escalating ladder. Whether someone has a knock-off at home and puts a wig on it and sews clothes for it and cares for it, it feels wrong to me to have an opinion on it. It is personal. But then we have the next step on the ladder in which this person will associate with the rest of the community. They will perhaps sell their knock off, talk about it and make more people aware of it, will make it less stimatisized as more people will think "oh well if she thinks its ok..." and then it stops being personal and becomes an issue. I agree we have to take it out at the root, and I do ask the question: "if people cannot respect the artist and the product, when will it stop being percieved as art and become just an object?" That is my greatest concern regarding this spreading of of recasts.

I can't bring myself to care on a personal level what each and everyone does because it isn't my business. But I do care the second it gets into contact with the hobby at large (which it does the second someone buys the copy instead of the real thing). I think I am not explaining myself very well but at the bottom of it: we're agreeing on this subject. As you might of understood if I had worded myself better