The consequences of copied dolls

A lot of other industries where knock offs or copies are widely distributed justify high prices because of or in addition to the knock offs - "if you(general public) weren't stealing/copying/hacking/downloading etc the price you pay may be cheaper.

Looking at all copyright infringement re-distribution as a whole it comes down to symptoms of rampant capitalism. I'm going to charge you this amount because this is my awesome idea and I am talented enough to make the first one or the best one or intellectual enough to think of it first. Another person/company/group etc then realises hey I can make Mr awesome's product available to more people because I don't need that kind of profit margin I would be more than happy to do the same thing or make the same thing and get paid half of what Mr awesome's getting.

Some of the consumers will always value the real thing more and make sure they give credit or cash where they believe it's due. Others value the skills of the undercutter/faker/copyer/hacker to get them a product at what they believe is better value even if the legitimacy/originality/quality is compromised.

Unfortunately for all of us that which we hold very dear and the talent and creativity we value in bjd artisanship is also subject to this.

I can say as a bjd collector and hobbyist it's important to me that I am paying the original artist/author/creator or their company. But as a consumer I make a judgement like that about everything I pay full price for, buy at a discounted and questionable rate or steal by downloading.

In some cases (not bjds) I believe that it's not worth paying full price or even any price because I don't value the original product or creator or more to the point I don't think they or their product is worth the price they are asking.

Others feel that way about bjds.

Copyright laws are highly dubious ethically because people can and have created very similar things at nearly the same time all around the world, more so now when we are living in a world where most of us are exposed to very similar stimuli.

According to copyright law both creators have a copyright even if the product is nearly identical because the effort to produce it was not due to it being a slavish copy.

Copyright also says those of us who purchase something that is protected (unless its pure purpose is to be displayed publically)do not have the right to display it publically or produce a derivative work of it to be displayed publically.

That means we as owners of copyrighted bjds are not legally entitled to photograph our bjds ( create a derivative work) and display it online. Yes that does mean that every gallery thread, I love my dolly Flickr upload and doll blog is a copyright violation - just like recasting is. Re-read the j-pop letter from the lawyer and check.

So in a capitalist world with ridiculously worded laws nothing can be done to change what is going on.

All that we can do is stand by what we value highly and support the industry and artists with our cash. The rest is pretty much out of our control unless we change ideology and basic "law".

 

Anime is another hobby/area where bootlegs are met with a lot of the same divisiveness that I see here in the BJD community--there are plenty of people who do think a bootleg dvd or knockoff poster is just fine, and then there are those who, like those here, do their best to educate people on why this isn't okay, and how to spot the differences between bootlegs and legit products. (And, like DoA, most conventions have turned to banning bootleg products from sales and will toss out dealers who are selling bootleg merchandise.)

In my own mind, I find the pro-bootleg mindset to be one of ultimate selfishness. It's the mindset of those who not only don't understand, but don't want to understand that no, they can't have anything they want, any time they want, for cheap. This is different from accidental purchasing--I personally have bought bootleg DVDs in the past, but I did it without knowing the difference, and I felt rather terrible after I learned about it. (And ultimately re-bought those DVDs in legitimate versions, and destroyed the others.) I think my encountering of bootlegs in other hobbies gave me at least a baseline awareness that it could be a possibility here, before I started learning about it, but I still value that DoA and the userbase here DO educate on bootlegs and why they're wrong. And DO bring up the consequences of what can happen if they're encouraged.

 

This is the way I look it at it -- people can point to other hobbies as well as things like music downloads (this get brought up all the time in these discussions), etc. However, when discussing recasting bjds, I find it most important and relevant to look at the effect that it has on this hobby -- and it does create issues. That's enough of a reason to discourage it. Just because it isn't as big an issue in other hobbies doesn't negate the impact of bootlegs here. Also a lot of countries do have similar copyright laws that do clearly say that what the recasters are doing is illegal, so for most folks on this forum, the same rules apply when it comes to bootleg dolls. People have all kinds of justifications for buying recasts, but I have yet to see any that really hold up to any kind of scrutiny. Just because there are reasons for making certain choices, doesn't mean that those reasons are good. There are a lot of issues that fall into the gray category, but I just don't see it in this instance.

 

Another area that is constantly being recasted is MODEL kits. Recasting of resin kits is BIG business and I have not heard of anything being leveled against those companies that do so. For some of the kits that are so far out of production, recasting is sometimes the only way to save the kit for posterity as the original molds have long either been broken or have been used so many times the detail is completely gone. Doesn't make it right, but again not everything is all black or all white. There are gray areas.

 

There are no gray areas in relation to bjds. It's wrong and against the law in many counties. It's ethically wrong. It's stealing. I wish people would read the attachment several people in this thread posted about the legal ramifications of making, selling and buying recast dolls.

 

Again, model kits are not bjds. Pirated music is not bjds. MLPs are not bjds. Generic dollar store stuff is not bjds. Other than making some people think bootlegging is ok, how does what happens in other hobbies have anything to do with ours? Where exactly are these gray areas in this hobby? To be a gray area, there would need to be some kind of benefit, but I don't see any benefits for the bjd hobby in recasting dolls.

 

I am not sure I should write this (don't want to put oil on the fire), but before deciding to purchase my Iple House (Tania) a few weeks ago, It took me two years of research for information, including the purchase of the book "Ball Jointed Dolls for beginners". I really though recasts was a product for young people who could not afford expensive dolls, or people who wanted to practise blushing, faceups, etc. Someone told me about a re-cast company (where she purchased a doll) that offered Volks, Iple house and many other company dolls. The recast website was even using the original pictures from the companies they were coping, I though it was somehow correct to buy from it. But I was somehow not feeling 100 % comfortable, that's why I purchased the book.

Then I asked a good friend of mine what she though of my doll choice and the recast company (she owns many BJD dolls and participate in doll masquerades, etc). My friend explained it was a bad idea to buy recasts, and all the consequences you are mentioning on this thread, plus the fact that I would be banned from doll masquerade, BJD forums, etc. She invited me to this forum too, to get information.

I am happy I took the time to complete my research. You pay for what you get. I just know I will be satisfied with my doll (hoping nothing goes wrong with it via shipping in this summer heat). I know I won't be able to buy many dolls at this price, but it makes the hobby so much more interesting and fun.

 

I'm a bit worried about what the companies' reaction would be if recasting were to get out of hand. I don't think any of this would happen for a long time, like at least five years if things got totally crazy. like the doll apocalypse if you will. hahaha

If they make a new sculpt and it gets copied and resold for half the price ,or what have you, and they decide to make fewer dolls to control this, to protect their brand and product.
Like if they only release a certain sculpt for a single month or only a limited amount. If they only MADE 60 dolls, then the 61st owner has a recast. All their dolls then become Limited Edition. They pull all the "basic" dolls off their stock shelves and stop releasing regular dolls.

It makes dolls everywhere more expensive. In Limited sets they will have nice sets that cost extra, not to mention the rarity factor, and brand name.
It also would make it even harder to GET a specific doll. Those who support buying from the companies will have to stalk the websites and hope they have the money when it is released. Even to get a doll that was once basic.
And second hand sales will be next to impossible.

Once again this is an extreme, but it could make being in the hobby so much more expensive and exclusive.
It would take a long time, but knock-offs DO effect the market, bit by bit.

 

Thanks for this Kitty! You said exactly what I wanted to about purchasing unknowingly recast dolls. A slightly separate issue - is it fair for DoA to ban an artist who does a faceup on a doll without knowing it was a recast? It seems like they shouldn't be banned as what they are doing is their own original work. I understand that all recasters are conducting piracy and should be kicked out, but I don't think innocent buyers or artists should lose access to this community because they didn't research EVERYTHING beforehand. Just curious how others view this..

 

The rules on DoA are not up for debate in this thread.

DoA has a Zero Tolerance policy against recasts. If an artist posts any reference to a recast in their threads on Den of Angels or links directly to a portfolio containing recasts, they are in violation of our rules. By painting recasts, artists - intentionally or not - legitimize the existence of recasts and simultaneously undermine the integrity of their own artwork and the right to be paid for their skill. If an artist discovers after the fact that they painted a recast, they should immediately remove all reference to it on DoA. It is certainly in the interests of face-up artists to maintain an anti-recast policy as well, even if it is merely for the sake of making their future less complicated.

 

I find it interesting that you bring up model kits and the issue they have with recasts because a quick google search brings up two articles(admittedly old) about the consequences and impact recasts kits have http://www.gremlins.com/kitbuilders/recasts.html http://theclubhouse1.net/museum/RECAST.htm Long story short, recasts hurt the original makers of the models with one sculptor all but dropping out of the hobby. And it doesn't really look like recasts are all that accepted in the modeling hobby all that much. One of the articles also points out that with the original sculptors and distributors make very little money off their kits regardless of the high prices. I doubt it's that much different with the dolls

I've seen people ask why can't the doll companies offer more skin tones, or lower prices, or re-release limiteds(common excuses for buying recasts) but I want to know why can't the people copying dolls develop and release their own original dolls?

 

- Because it is easier to make recasts and sell them than to produce your own work.
- Because it doesn't take as much time to make recasts, meaning that you get a higher profit.
- Because it requires skills to sculpt your own dolls and they don't have that skillset.
- And so on, and so on.

Fact of the matter is that a recaster is just as much concerned with the wellbeing of the hobby as a forger is with the wellbeing of the art community. The only thing they are interested in is profit, no matter how many fancy words they throw at you.

 

More than just money, all legitimate BJDs are the creation of an artist who worked hard to create a doll that people would love. For them to spend that much time on something, that much soul and love, and then not see a bit of monetary gain because someone chose to be a recast instead of the real deal is heartbreaking. I don't think the people who buy recasts should be subjected to some of the bullying that occasionally occurs, but it is wrong.

As far as the actual recasted dolls though, I feel bad for them. I mean, so many people connect with their dolls on a personal level and put a piece of their own souls into them. I don't feel like it should be the recasted doll's fault that it was created to look like another person's work and sold for a lesser price. I would never buy a recasted doll, but if by some weird happening I should somehow come to own one, I would try to modify him or her to be their own doll-person. But, I'm just extremely sentimental. Does anyone else feel this way. . .?

 

Sounds absolutely the same as with dolls! I was reading the questions & answers on both of them, and they sound exactly the same as all our debate threads here. They're voicing the exact same arguments as we are, and fielding the same ridiculous excuses for why it's OK to buy a recast as we are.... "It's too expensive to buy original", "It's been discontinued", "It was limited", "It's not hurting anyone", "The company's out of business", "The company is a big heartless corporation who's just in it for the money, so I'm not really taking food off the tables of artists", etc. Not to mention "But Hobby X involves lots of copying & recasts, so therefore it's OK for our scene, too". Sounds like a lot of those same old selfish songs have been sung many many times before.

Thank you for sharing those links.

 

Oh this is the thing that bugs me beyond belief too. Isn't part of our hobby meant to be about creativity after all? I wanted a tan pukifee for over a year and part of the joy (and frustration) of her coming into being was researching how to tan a doll, chickening out and finding someone who would do it for me, etc etc.

The first recast tan pukifees appeared when I was still working out the details for Cadi and they actually made me really disheartened. Even though I knew Cadi was 100% legitimate home-tanned (she has the streaky mismatches on her legs to prove it!), those recasts seemed to cheapen the whole idea of tan pukifees. So I'm really glad that FL has now done tans. I actually thought about 'upgrading' Cadi for a brief moment, but realised that she already is the perfect tan pukifee for me and I'm really proud of the hard work (albeit not mine) that went into creating her. And that's something that nobody with a recast can ever feel.

 

I don't think I've ever posted about my feelings on recasts before, so I hope it's ok that I do. It's probably already been said and stuff, but I wanted to know that I at least got my opinion out there.

Where to start..

If there is one thing I really respect in this world, it's artists. I have very low artistic ability, so I have crazy respect for those that do. In particular, this comes out a lot in the doll hobby. The doll makers have this incredible talent that allows them to make something I love and enjoy so much. I know that I have the means to buy quite a few dolls, and because of this, I know that I can help support the people at the doll company.

I've spent a lot of money on dolls, and it makes me happy knowing that the money is going to a good place and for a good reason. I wouldn't feel that way if it went towards a recast. Yes, recasting gives people jobs, but I still choose not to support it. I will choose supporting the original doll maker %100 of the time. They spend countless hours and resources making their vision come true, and if I'm financially able to, I'm happy to help support that!

The thing that really confuses me, is why someone chooses recasts over legits because of money. Say you want to buy a recast for $100. And say the legit is $250. If you've saved enough money to pay for the $100 recast, why can't you just wait a little longer until you have the rest of the money for the legit? Is this a time thing? Do people want their doll NOW, so they don't want to wait and save more money?

That just seems silly to me. Sure, saving up more money takes longer, but at least you will not be doing something illegal, and you will be supporting the original company. If you can save up $100, you can save up $250. A lot of companies also offer layaways, and that makes it incredibly easier. In my opinion, there is just no feasible reason to buy a recast.

 

I do believe it is a time issue... as in... "me wants a cookie! Me wants it now!". That's the thing I heard most often when I was watching the videos of box openings I found [not just the recast ones but the legit ones too]. If someone can get a doll "soon" instead of waiting 3+ months, they will buy the doll they can get right now. But I think the difference is... the people who pay for the real thing vs. a recast have respect for those who make the dolls + can afford a little wiggle room with savings a lot of the time because they know how to balance their funds and WANT to save for their legit doll. I think impatience + not having good control over your savings/balancing how much you spend probably plays a major role too. Some of the recast buyers in the vids I saw mentioned the fact that they were glad it was cheaper since they didnt want to spend xyz amount on the legit one. They also said that the quality being "just as good" + it being cheaper was a big plus for them personally [which "just as good" is probably not always true, if ever... and yeah some legit companies due have quality control issues].

 

My point wasn't a complaint about sites banning those who have recast dolls. It was about the knee-jerk reaction to what was ultimately a false accusation. About someone having their name put on a blacklist(and for some sites have it remain there to this day) when there was no research done into whether or not she had actually purchased a recast doll. As in the historical witch hunts, this was a case of someone with an unrelated personal grudge turning over an innocent person to the mob. She ended up almost dropping out of the hobby entirely and the person who made the false accusation didn't face any consequences beyond loosing some friendships in the local group. Watching all of the drama unfold just makes me think that we need to be more careful of gathering the facts before we start expelling people from the community. In some cases its pretty obvious that a doll is a recast, but if all you have is an accusation by one person, you need to be a bit more careful.

 

im just trying to figure out how you let a doll corporation decide whether you get to a be on a forumits big business much like the republican party more money lining there pockets what happened to love thy neighbor is there a clause that says well only be friends with you if you have an original 1000 dollar doll lol thats retarded there are some people out there working minimum wage who cant afford that n theres no reason a doll should cost as much as my shitbox car theres more metal in it lol im totally against banning people we shouldnt turn den of angels into such an unfriendly environment 5 years ago i got screamed at on here for standing up for a girl who drew a beautiful illustration of her doll i dont take defending her back. it was the right thing to do

 

Love thy neighbor?? What about Thou shalt not steal, if we're going to quote scripture.