The consequences of copied dolls

This has nothing to do with the amount of money you spend on your dolls. There are PLENTY of cheaper dolls available for those who have less money. Also... I am someone who doesnt have much money/cant afford to buy expensive dolls but I have SEVERAL on my wishlist. Including Iple House and a Volks SD16 Megu. I am perfectly fine with SAVING for these dolls because I want them. Just because I cant afford them, that DOES NOT give me the right to go buy a recast. For one... buying a recast is a risk to my health if it is made with inferior products and I am not willing to risk my health for a doll. And two... it is not only illegal but morally wrong to purchase something that has basically been stolen and reproduced without the original artists/owners permission. Also I DONT need these dolls to survive. They are just something that I want and have no actual purpose and I can live my life without them. So in the end, if you truly want something like this that you dont need then saving for them shouldnt be an issue. If you want something bad enough you learn how to work hard in order to get it. I am so sick of this entitlement bullcrap that a lot of people seem to have. You dont deserve something just because you want it!

 

Because there are copied dolls, I think it makes buying second hand dolls much harder.

As there are so many recasts of Super Dollfie Rozen Maiden dolls (Some unlucky fans got a hand on these), I think it is especially hard to find the sculpt you want when there are chances it could be a recast passed off as a real doll.

I think companies would have to mark their dolls in different ways, or some other ways, which must make things really hard for them. Some Volks recasters even copy the headplates on dolls!

 

First of all, there are plenty of original dolls that don't cost a 1000 dollars. Secondly, I get tired of the excuse that it's okay to buy recasts when you're on minimum wage. I don't even make half of minimum wage and still all the dolls I own are originals. I took me a long time to save up for them, but I did. And even when you don't have the money to save - like I do right now - it still doesn't give you the right to buy recasts, because dolls are not a necessity.

As a dollmaker, these dolls are my livelihood. If I don't sell dolls, I don't get food on the table and I don't pay rent. Because I'm ill, I can't hold another job than this, so I'm completely dependent on what I sell.
This whole recast thing makes me angry. As a buyer, you don't need dolls to survive, as a doll maker I DO. So why are people still defending recast owners based on some ridiculous argument that they are poor and couldn't afford the real thing?

If you want to do 'the right thing' and defend someone, defend the artist.

 

You're on minimum wages and can't afford buying that doll you want right now? Or not even within another year or two or three? Well, tough luck for you. I'm really tired of hearing that argument. As it's been pointed out, dolls aren't a necessity. And there's plenty of very nice, very pretty cheaper dolls out there. If you don't have the will or the patience to save up for an original and then, try to justify buying a recast by using all kinds of sorry excuses for doing it, well then excuse me for calling you out on it. For my first doll, I saved up money for five years (in numbers: 5). It wasn't one of those 1000 USD full-set Volks limiteds or Soom monthlies. It was a pretty standard 500 USD (550 because I also got the factory face-up) SD-sized doll.

I really, really want a Ryoma Sakamoto. I'll probably never get one, though, not even on the second hand market. Why? Well, the cheapest full-set I've seen here on the Marketplace was something like 1700 USD, which is way, WAAAAAY out of my price range. So, do I try to get a cheaper recast instead? Heck no! I'm a fan of Volks (and of quite some other doll companies). When you're a fan of a doll company (or BJDs in general) you just don't go out there and steal from them by buying recasts. Same like when you're a fan of a certain music group: You won't download their music illegaly because it's for free - you'll go and buy their albums because you want to show your support. Same with BJDs, really.

Edit: Sorry for the strong words but we're also discussing this topic in my German doll-forum and I'm getting so tired of hearing the same old pro-recast arguments over and over again ...

 

Some people just can't justify even if they can afford it, a very expensive doll just sitting there as something pretty to look at. I'm not pro or anti recast for the record, I just can understand that some people don'twant to spend more then they have to to be in the hobby they love when they will still get the same enjoyment out of a recast. Yes there taking away from an artist but not if that doll isn't for sale any more all there taking away from is someone in the second hand market making a nice buck or two. In my view the companies will still make money, the people that are happy to spend the money will always spend the money with the companies, and I personally think when recast has been compared to rape........really? Think that says more about your mentality then anything. I respect everyone's views though I really do I can see both sides of the argument.

 

Bootleg and recast dolls usually have tall tale signs such as...
Resin color is off
Parts are not all the same doll (head is say volks, hands are soom, legs are fairyland OR the head and body are soom glot but the fantasy legs are soom beleya)
Double seams
Parts are glued on when they should be removable
Bubbles occure in the recast (you may get a doll with clear resin parts that have bubbles within or bubbles may have occured during a recast and left holes or nicks on the doll)

If you are new and you buy a doll which seems perfectly legit when the doll arrives it will come usually without a company box. The doll will be completly string and be bubble wrapped but not provided with a company box or paperwork. If you recieve a doll with paperwork ot wont be in a baggy also you will generally receive paperwork but not the box or the box but no paperwork or pillows(basically youll be missing pieces that would usually come with the doll)

 

That's selfish entitlement behaviour. *I* want this doll, *I* want it now and I don't want to spend money on it, because MY desires are so much more important than someone else's rights.
You do know that this attitude is at the root of so many problems in the world, right? Farmers have to close their business, because customers don’t want to pay for their meat anymore. In the West we are growing fat, while people in some 3rd world countries are starving. Not because the Earth is unable to produce enough food, but because all the food is distributed unfairly. And who cares about the children in sweat shops, if I can get that t-shirt for one dollar less? After all, *I* deserve it, because I'm paying with my hard earned money.

I'm not saying that buying recasts is the same as all these big problems, but the arguments used to justify buying them are the same.

Fact is, that if you want to buy a Souldoll Juana, you'll have to pay $575 + shipping. The price of this doll won't suddenly drop because you (general) feel that you deserve to get this doll.

 

O'rly? Corporation? big business? Facepalm.

Well maybe those some people shouldn't get into this hobby. I would very much to have a Porsche, but I don't go out there and steal one.

You should just go out there and buy a Bratz doll. That's the equivalent of your shitbox car.

 

IF they are complete recasts...
and someone bought one...
painted it...
and NEVER told anyone it was from (insert company)....
took pics of it...
posted them in a photostory with their other dolls...
how would anyone know?

You're right...I don't think they would, unless it was a really bad recast, but I've had some dolls straight from the companies that haven't been totally perfect either.

What happens to the retail value of the REAL sculpt when copies are passed off as originals?
I don't think it changes the price because of the recasts.Usually they just go up in price anyway.

What about resale of such copies? Here OR on Ebay? Will it drive prices lower?
What it will do is probably make people more paranoid about whether they are buying originals or not.

When purchasing secondhand... you may or may not be able to tell once the doll arrives.
What if the seller of one of these dolls also bought it second hand and did not know the difference? Through no fault of their own sold it as it was represented to them? as an original?

That's the thing, people have mentioned that the recasts are of a lesser quality resin or looks in some way because of the recast moulds, but the recasters could also get more sophisticated, and quite honestly would you 'really' know? I think this is what worries people, and also the fact that from buying earlier dolls when recasts weren't so prevalent, people weren't so worried about certificates, and also not everyone can keep original boxes as they take up so much space if you have a lot of dolls and a small living space.

What long term consequences to the hobby and the value of ABJDs do you foresee if complete copies continue to surface?
Well for a start more people might end up with copied dolls that they believe to be the real thing, and also more copies will probably be made because there are always new companies and moulds being produced to copy. People will get more paranoid about buying dolls ( especially if they are second hand dolls), and sellers will probably have to jump through hoops to prove they have an original doll.

What could be done to prevent it, how to recognize these "Dopplegangers", What toll it might take on current sculpters and future work they might do? and a whole bag of other questions that I am sure will come up.
I think for artists that produce dolls on a smaller scale, it will be easier to keep track of their dolls, and so hopefully won't put them off producing them, and larger companies will have to think of other ways to provide something for buyers apart from certificates etc. that can be copied,( apart from a ' company logged registration' idea that could be passed on to second hand buyers),as I don't think any stamps on the resin would work as they would be easy for the recasters to copy too. Not sure what else they could do that couldn't be copied, unless there is some sort of tiny special thing they could imbed in their resin like you chip pets or something?

 

So what happen with secondhand dolls, then? It's not reasonable to think everyone saved their boxes and paperwork on the off chance that they would sell the doll one day. Also, not all dolls come with box and paperwork even when new. I have a couple of less-expensive new-from-company dolls that came with cushioned bags and no paperwork.

Or are you one of those who won't buy a secondhand doll that doesn't have box, paperwork, and appropriate wrappings?

 

Totally off topic, but I had to laugh out loud.

 

This. THIS. I seriously cannot argue with what you said here. What you said about farmers, they work hard to chop up and provide all the meat we eat everyday, and I thank them by paying the money they deserve.

And same with BJDs, artists put so much effort into designing the dolls, molding them, casting them, doing faceups and everything. As an artist, I understand all the pain that has gone through to produce such a beautiful thing. Then, these beauties are copied off ruthlessly to the people who don't think about the hard work done by the artist? This is making me pretty upset. I am not a copyright elitist entirely, but when it comes to creations being copied and ripped off, then I have a problem. This is why I don't want to buy counterfeit brand items, and I wish my mother understand about these copyrights. I used to not care about brand items, but I started to care when I saw talked to my classmate who is going to be a fashion designer.

I don't mean to be mean to be mean to kyliebee, but please PLEASE consider the damage done to the artist when someone buys a recast. When too many recasts are bought, an artist dies.

 

I find interesting this strong will of wanting something without admitting that it has a cost. Makes me think of a child who is having temper to get what he wants, no matter what. How people buying recasts have been raised ? How clever are they, to be unable to accept a so simple rule ? For me, it sounds like "me, me, me!"...

 

When you buy a recast doll, you are stealing. You're acting out of some childish, entitled impulse that tells you that yóu and yóur desires are so much more important than the livelyhood of someone who spend years making the doll. The doll you like so much that you have to have it right now and can't be bothered to save up for and support the artist. I don't care what kind of excuses people come up with, buying a recast is never okay. If you want the doll, save up for it. It will be so much more special, and at least you didn't steal.

 

I'm not going to lie and say that I have never gotten something that it is fake or a copy of the original. My mom used to have many knock-off bags and watches, they never last more than a year or so because of the cheap quality. My mom also has originals and she loves her originals because they last a long time! and now whenever she can, she will choose to buy the original over the fake one because she says it is worthy to get something well made that will last a long time than something that will go to the trash can in a few months. No matter how "real" it looks like, it will NOT be the same (quality wise).

I guess with dolls it is the same. I have never purchased and will never get a recast doll but some people have mentioned the bad quality of recast dolls: it could yellow faster, pieces may not be the same as the original, the resin chemicals could be more harmful to your health etc etc

People who just care about the cost of the doll and not about the hard work put into them by the artists, should take in consideration the quality side of the product. There are many wonderful companies out there that sell cheap BJDs or offer layaway (Soom, Iplehouse and Luts offer layaway so there is no excuse!!) but for those who want limited Volks dolls and don't want to spend a huge amount of money, I say to them, get out of the hobby. If you can't save money for that dream doll you shouldn't be in this hobby, period. It is not a necessity, this hobby is a luxury! and sadly not everyone can afford it but with hard work everything is possible!
Also, I got into this hobby while I was in high school, I got paid $7.25 per hour and I worked my butt off to buy ALL my dolls (no monetary help from no one) and buy a camera to take pictures (never had a camera in my life, I come from a poor family) and all the accessories cost money as well...nobody told me to get into it, I liked it, I wanted it and I'm willing to work hard for it. *is eyeing everyday that Volks Kujo Kazuya on sale, in hopes that nobody buys it until she can get the $$ for it*

I take pride in being a BJD hobbyist and as an artist, I know how important it is to the doll makers to make their vision into a reality and oh! the blissful feeling that comes with others liking and buying your work. That's why I don't support recasts because they are just stealing and those who buy them while knowing what they are doing, are just the same. If I just want a cheap doll I would get myself a barbie.

As for how to spot them and make them stop? in pictures is difficult to tell but in person, I can guarantee that I will be able to recognize Iplehouse, Soom, Fairyland, DOD and Luts dolls just because I have the originals, I know how the resin feels and the quality of each company...that's why I'm hesitant to buy second hand now, if I ever want to buy a second hand doll it'd be from this site, the Volks doll I'm saving for has the box and original papers but I'm still wary because I've never had a Volks doll before but when I buy from the marketplace, I plan to ask the person for her/his ID from the company when they bought it and I will ask the company if "X" person bought "X" doll from them....it is the only option I see to trust whether or not the product is legit. (Got it second hand or from ebay?...I would pass, sadly...but this is only if I have suspicion of it being fake...having said that, I'd never get a doll from ebay). Almost forgot, the only way possible to make them stop is not buying from them (and report them whenever you can). I'm and will do my job by not giving a penny to recast companies, hopefully, many others will do the same.

 

Slightly off topic but when you say farms close because we don't want to pay for meat and people are starving in third world countries because food is not given out fairly, if the world went vegan that actually wouldn't be a problem but because people are selfish and don't want to give up meat and feel entitled to eat animals we have people starving not because there isn't enough food but because people want there meat and won't give it up. An people meat is a luxury not a need just so you no as so many have forgotten but that's another issue all together, but that's just for those that say this is a luxury hobby not a need maybe your diet should remember that

People will justify what they want if they want it and condemn when it only affects then negatively in some aspect.

People feel entitled every day your right and that is the problem with the world but unless you dedicate yourself to being as good to the world as you possibly can in every way possible I see it as slightly hypocritical to complain about sweat shop or doll "theft" but still have that big glass of milk and cheese burger. Every single person in this thread I can say safely acts entitled in some form in there life , everyone wants to get as much for there money as they can and I can't blame them and won't tell them how to live their short time on this earth.

 

This, I think, is the most important argument against recasts.

Did you know that one of the artists behind The Mushroom Peddler dolls has calculated her average hourly wage for her creative projects at under $4 an hour? Did you know that in almost all jurisdictions, the costs associated with defending copyright fall entirely on the shoulders of the copyright holder, including all lawyers and legal fees? The police won't do it for you, the copyright holder must do all the work of bringing it to court themselves. Did you know that if a copyright holder doesn't go after someone who is making illegal copies of their work, it can be later used as evidence of "implied consent" in a court case, and can lose them the copyright completely? That this would put their artwork into the public domain and lose them the exclusive right to make a living off their work? Did you know a lawyer can charge several hundred dollars per hour of their work, and an international court case against a Chinese recaster can take MONTHS?

Buying a recast, even if you would never be a customer of the original artist, funds these recast companies. That means they have more money to buy more dolls, make more molds, tempt more people into buying recasts, force more artists to take the time and money they could use creating and spend it defending their copyright.

Sadly, shutting down a recast company takes more time, more money, more effort than starting up a new one. Money coming out of the pockets of artists who are barely scraping by. That means while there is a demand for recasts, there will always be a supply. If we as a hobby community wish to respect our artists and ensure that they are able to earn a living wage for their work, if we want to encourage the creation of more beautiful, innovated, amazing sculptures for everyone to enjoy, then we need to ensure there is always a stigma against recasts that discourages people from buying them. More importantly, I think we need to encourage and spread information about the damage that recasting does to our artists, so people can make an informed decision about where to spend their money.

If recasting grows more prevalent, the small companies will be the first to suffer. The community will lose its makers one by one, and gradually we will have fewer and fewer new releases. Who knows what potential dolls we've already lost to companies that have had to go out of business because they couldn't afford to fight recasts? Or doll artists who've had to spend days on end tracking down legal information instead of sculpting? BJD collectors need BJD makers for our hobby to exist, and if we don't respect and defend them now then they won't be here later.

 

There is a difference between knock-offs and recasts/copies (as has been stated before). Purses and watches that are not branded identically as the trademarked name are knock-offs. They are similar but are not sold as being real. Recasts are often sold as being real, with trademarks and other identifying marks often recreated in an attempt to be the real thing. That is how knock-offs can be in a more grayish area whilest recasts are illegal (in most countries). Buying a recast is never ok.

And since other people are being off-topic: I love meat and milk and eggs and other delicious healthy foods. Forcing people to live on vegetables alone is not safe, especially for people with certain dietary restrictions or illnesses (me included). Becoming vegan is not a cure for starvation. The issues run much deeper than that.

Back on topic: Silk has put it perfectly.

 

I brought up the purses/watches issue because I know that they are very similar, if not identical, to the original but the quality is not the same. According to you, these 'knock-offs' are not completely illegal because they are not sold identically as the real one....That means that as long as the recast company is not selling their dolls as the real one, it's ok to attempt to make it similar with another trademarked name and sell it? I know many people who sell purses and watches as if they were the real deal and the gullible ones fall for it. My mom fell a lot of times until she bought them straight from the company and saw the difference. If some people don't care for quality or the artists value and just care for their money...then they have the right to buy these recasts as we call them? but if they change names like..."BJD knock-offs" then it would be in the grey area and not so bad? for me, copies are copies, whether they have another name or look a little bit different, the fact that someone tried to make it similar and sell it to gain a profit, makes it illegal for me but if it is not illegal to the world, then I guess...to each their own.