1. It has come to the attention of forum staff that Dollshe Craft has ceased communications with dealers and customers, has failed to provide promised refunds for the excessive waits, and now has wait times surpassing 5 years in some cases. Forum staff are also concerned as there are claims being put forth that Dollshe plans to close down their doll making company. Due to the instability of the company, the lack of communication, the lack of promised refunds, and the wait times now surpassing 5 years, we strongly urge members to research the current state of this company very carefully and thoroughly before deciding to place an order. For more information please see the Dollshe waiting room. Do not assume this cannot happen to you or that your order will be different.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Dollshe Craft and all dolls created by Dollshe, including any dolls created under his new or future companies, including Club Coco BJD are now banned from Den of Angels. Dollshe and the sculptor may not advertise his products on this forum. Sales may not be discussed, no news threads may be posted regarding new releases. This ban does not impact any dolls by Dollshe ordered by November 8, 2023. Any dolls ordered after November 8, 2023, regardless of the date the sculpt was released, are banned from this forum as are any dolls released under his new or future companies including but not limited to Club Coco BJD. This ban does not apply to other company dolls cast by Dollshe as part of a casting agreement between him and the actual sculpt or company and those dolls may still be discussed on the forum. Please come to Ask the Moderators if you have any questions.
    Dismiss Notice

The consequences of copied dolls

Jun 3, 2008

    1. I think it's more infamous related to it because of people and their overall feel of some previous situations(which makes me sad) but no one seems to remember companies like NIKE and Converse using child labor just because their local (being in the U.S.)

      There also has been sweat factories in the U.S. primarily is Hawaii and States like California and Washington we had a illegal labor field in Seattle making garments for Macy's until the late 1980's early 1990's. You can ask any Asian American who is 2nd or 3rd generation about this and they can tell you their stories.

      A little OT but no one is perfect.
       
    2. I see a lot of miscommunication when it comes to the word 'knockoff.' The companies, in question, that are being accused of 'knocking off' other companies really haven't done anything wrong. One can assume that they use a mold from another company's doll but, through a legal standpoint, no one here can prove it. I see this issue being no different than when you are walking down the street and catch eye with someone you could sware looks like your Aunt Gwenn. Or that guy at work that looks like that actor you saw in a movie last week. Nature makes copies, people make copies. Shoot everyone copies and there is no legal ground against it...until it involves copyrighted logos. Which is why the purse and rolex examples don't apply. I think that the only reason why the 'knockoff' dolls are banned here is because they can, and most likely will, be confused for the original models.

      On a side note, it tickles me when I read about someone contacting the company of an original model to let them know that another company is copying their work.
       
    3. There's child laborers and slave women in Asia but most things not made buy them, you can't even imagine how many people need work in some part of Asia, for little money. And what about slave women - well, this is not the best place for women, they bring more money in other kind of "business"
       
    4. You cannot go to upscale restaurant in Prado or Yveus San Lorent, can you? You will be laughed at. So why should you bring copied dolls to DoA? Everything has standarts, and who need that copied cheap mess here.
       
    5. I agree with the sentiments that were expressed earlier...i know for a FACT of two people who have fakes...one has an EL, and the other, a Four sisters head, and they are fake, but they have them on the boards here, and yet they have NEVER been caught. The fact is, you CANNOT always tell, and people who swear they will always know the difference are full of it. There are always ways around the 'flaws' so to speak....and u will find that although most are discovered, there will always be a handful of those who are NOT discovered. These two individuals have been on DOA, Deviant Art, and have even gone to meet-ups with their fakes, and no one has noticed that they were not the real thing....not to say it wouldn't happen in the future, but it's not always definate that someone is going to know.

      I have talked to these two in AIM, but they won't give me their DOA names... LOL
       
    6. I really wish that was true. It'd give me a little faith in my fellow man back if it was -- or was more often, anyway. (And that's a sad statement when you think about it.)

      In many cases even that doesn't matter. A lot of the representatives of the doll companies post here where they could read people saying "I don't care if people steal from you or not!" It happens in another hobby I'm in also, with file-sharers. It's rather galling.

      A lot of it does come back to that underlying assumption about things being 'overpriced'. I genuinely wish some of the people who make this claim would take a class in arts business; there are often free ones available, and many books in the subject as well. It would really surprise people how many "invisible expenses" are present. All of them are coming out of the same pool; all of them are going to have an impact on pricing.

      Labor is a huge factor, and the pricing differences in labor (skilled or unskilled, and depending on location) can make a big impact on the final price. The differences in cost of living contribute a lot to that impression that it's slave labor -- most of the people posting here probably couldn't live on the wages in many parts of the world where we are now, but that might be much more possible were we living there.

      Whether a company sells wholesale to distributors and must set price options accordingly, or whether they sell only through their own storefront, will also be a factor. Office supplies, phone bills, shipping costs when they order supplies of any kind, molds needing replacement... they're invisible to the person who wants to look at a doll and say 'that resin only costs $100, how dare you charge more!'

      ...sadly, yeah, people who are convinced this is the way the world is really will scream this in your face, too, as though you've just stabbed their grandmother in an alleyway for having the gall to charge more than the raw cost of one's materials. (Or what they think the materials cost, which is usually wrong.)
       
    7. This is really shocking and also a pure example of what everyone here is concerned about. I feel bad that people feel some drive or need to have such an "elite" doll that they would support the frauds who make copies. Who however is to blame for this need? The people who make the knock-offs? The companies who make them so limited? Those at the board who encourage elitism?

      This is sadly very true, the two will become one thing...

      I'm not sure if you meant this all sarcastically. I'm not sure if anyone is talking the legality of copies here, but more the moral grounds. People are STEALING designs, copying them and then selling them for a profit. No doubt using inferior quality materials to do so. The possibility of someone selling a fake doll on is petrifying and could be utterly damaging to the second hand market. How can we PROVE they are fakes if the person selling it themselves bought the doll second hand thinking it was, say, an original Hound? How would we prove it to Paypal, or EBay or whatever, in order to get our refund.

      I'm glad people are supporting the artists and telling them that their designs have been knocked off. All for one and one for all? Don't turn a blind eye to the crap of the world just because it isn't directly "your problem".
       
    8. I won't post my opinion if it weren't for these articles:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/30/opinion/30thomas.html?ref=opinion

      http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5693207

      http://www.icc-ccs.co.uk/bascap/article.php?articleid=141

      http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=57

      http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...rl_who_came_to_us_for_school_busted_at-4.html

      "Credible enough"?

      [Edit because I forgot to add]

      But back to the topic of bootleg dolls:

      The original creators would most likely have trademarks stamped on their dolls already. I've noticed a small "DS" stamp on all of my SA Husky's joints (plus he came with certificates) so Dollshe has been practicing this "logo-ing" for some time now.

      What if a doll company trademark's their doll sculpts, would that protect them from doll bootleggers?
       
    9. Trademarking and copyrighting work differently in different countries. Intellectual property laws are very different in the west compared to the east. A friend of mine lives in Russia and for-profit fanfiction is perfectly legal there, whereas you would be jumped on for plagiarism if the same thing happened in the UK. I imagine the doll companies would love to trademark their sculpts and bodies, but because of the laws of that company's country, they may be unable to and international law is very murky on trademarking.
       
    10. Fascinating links, Alithéa! It's frightening to consider the truth behind these rumors. A lot of the justification behind buying knock-offs is that "look at the real cost; they mark it up so high! How do I know? Look how cheaply you can buy a fake!" But the reason why the fakes are so much more inexpensive is not necessarily the cost of materials, but simply the cost (or rather, the almost non-existent cost) of labor.

      I suppose it's foolish to hope that knock-offs won't invade and be exploited by DoA members, but I do believe that there is more resistance to it in this hobby. Though, it's correct - copying a designer bag, an artist's "masterpiece," re-casting; they're all acts of blatant counterfeiting. This may even be just as prevalent on DoA without our knowledge, but at least it's not as overtly condoned.

      But I agree with International Velvet; I'd avoid copies on simply the grounds of respect for the original company (even if I disregarded the whole moral conflict). And now, after reading these posts, I'm starting to hate the statement that the prices are unjustified (even though I made a similar statement myself regarding handbags). Yes, the price may be high. But if you can't justify it, there are cheaper alternatives that are not copied. I find Hermes Birkin bags insane - over $10,000 on a handbag? But I don't factor in the cost of upholding a brand, the materials, the craftmanship, the labor. The price doesn't prompt me to find bootlegs. I settle for my non-name brand bag that cost $30.
       

    11. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say here since my wording is a bit weird:

      What I mean there is that people who SUPPORT counterfeits/bootlegs/dopplegangers do not think that the organized crime rings that produce these bootlegs really exist.

      Even if they know it exists, they really don't care about it. Most people still believe that it is all an urban myth or some kind of media scare tactic that "The Big Businesses" collaborated on--just to make "sheep people" buy their "overpriced" brand name "crap."

      There are people out there who will not care if their doll is a fake one passed off as the real deal. All they care about is to have it and have it right now.

      No patience or self-sacrifice when it comes to pooling financial resources to save up for their dream doll...
       
    12. This brings to mind a movie quote that I think applies in lots of situations including this one...

      "were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."
       
    13. Oops, yes, I did totally misread that. I agree there, too. I was more thinking of the idea that they weren't seeing the people they were hurting by buying the 'stolen' design (read: the original artists), so they didn't care, which is also a factor.
       
    14. Personally, i'll be honest...yeah, i'm in agreement that copying is not right...however, please show me the justification in charging 1900 dollars for doll???? I've worked in sculptures before, and there is NOTHING that they are doing to make these dolls that justifies nearly 2000 dollars PER doll....I'm sorry....but the companies that are doing that are partly to blame. People just want to be able to have a collectible that they dream of, and with companies charging more and more and MORE for these dolls, it's just absolutely insane. When volks first started, they were all about creating a doll that can be loved, and cherished, whereas now, it just seems like it's a reason to make a HUGE mark-up on something that took 1/16th of the price to make. There is nothing about these dolls even if limited that justifies nearly 2000 dollars and up for them. So just as the person who buys the dolls is to blame for supporting the copied dolls, and the creator for making them, the companies have their part in it too, by creating all-too-often overpriced dolls.

      and yes, before everyone jumps on me about "oh, but they are worth that", please tell me WHY they are worth that.....because there are other things that are just as rare, if not more so, that you will not pay that much for.


      IMO, if companies stop with this mentality of "Make it more and more expensive....why make 300 dollars profit when we could make 1400 dollars profit", then the copying will subside a bit.

      Overpriced stuff will always cause copying and stealing.
       
    15. Incidentally, I don't like the misappropriation of the term "doppelganger" for use in this way (meaning a copied item). It's simply not correct.

      The whole thing about counterfeits and copies is that if you buy a copy/counterfeit item you are buying something without integrity, and what does that say about you?


      In general I find things are way cheaper than they should be for wealthy people such as ourselves. This is true for gasoline, food, and clothing, and true of our toys as well.


      Raven
       
    16. Regarding the posts concerning reselling on the secondhand market here at DoA; if the seller got their doll straight from the company they would have stuff to show for it, wouldn't they? The company's order confirmation, doll sculpt papers, original box, etc. I realize not everyone keeps these so it would be moot to ask for it, or they could just as well lie, but it was just a thought.
       
    17. I would love to get a Bermann, I can't afford one, if I bought a fake it wouldn't be a Bermann to me, no matter how much he looked like one. Not because I am a doll snob, but because the hand of the artist never would have touched it, and it's the artist's talent that makes the doll what it is. The same goes for a Gucci bag, I might buy one whose styling is inspired by Gucci, but I would not buy one that is an exact copy right down to the company logos.

      Saying that these dolls are way overpriced is irrelevant, just because you think the $10,000 I want for my horrible painting is way out of line, it does not give you the right to copy it, because it's mine!

      The argument that in art school you are told to copy, copy, copy is not a valid one either, in art school you are told to copy in order to learn technique which you are to apply eventually to your own art, not to produce xerox quality copies of an original. If your art teacher tells you to learn in order to produce perfect copies to sell, then change art school.

      I'm a clothing designer, all our production is made in China, it is really the land of knock-offs, I have seen my designs copied in their markets before it was ready to sell over here. Because copyrights don't apply there, it doesn't mean much to them, in time this will change as international pressure is applied to have copyrights respected. The people copying these dolls are just trying to earn a living with a little business by copying anything they can get their hands on, that's the way it is. You can't really blame them, they haven't been thought to respect copyrights, they come from a communist culture where everything is supposed to belong to everybody.

      But this counterfeiting truly hurts the artists, who are craftsmen spending hours and hours perfecting their crafts, creating those beautiful dolls only to have them stolen from them and bastardized. Unknowingly buying a counterfeit is unfortunate, knowingly buying one is participating in theft, plain and simple. I think DoA by educating prospective buyers about BJDs plays an important role in stemming this scourge.
       
    18. Sorry to say this is actually wrong, in Scotland you can have free education if you are scottish. For I have been in college for four years now and I haven't paid for one year yet.
      Yes this would include the Glasgow Art School where Rennie MacIntosh was taught and designed.

      At the subject at hand, I wish that the bootleggers on e-bay would be shut down by blocking the IP address and not just the user name and/or e-mail address. This way I know my sister won't end up buying me a fake all because she didn't know the company was illegal and in the name of surprising me. I don't think I could handle a fake being in my house. I would have the strong urge to destroy it and spread the word.
      I'm glad that Obitsu use logo's on their dolls. All you got to do is get a world trademark on the logo and that will protect it in every country.

      I feel worst when an artist doll is copied because they may have never got a chance to get it protect. Plus a small company could easily say they had the design first and were making a large number of them first before they started to sell and it was just mear concince that they have the same looking doll. That would be a nightmare.
       
    19. It depends on the item and the circumstances. I know how much of a non-answer that is, but it really is.

      I won't say that no one upcharges simply because they think they can get away with it. That's done all the time in every possible industry -- they'll push until they find what the market will bear. It's less common than might be expected, though; it's easier for someone to turn down a luxury item with a markup that's beyond ridiculous than it is to turn down an essential item, so people can't get too carried away with their pricing or it will backfire on them.

      Is there a lot of hand work on the item that is vastly increasing labor time? Are the materials especially costly? Is the manufacturing process prone to a lot of waste (as is the case with the tan resin from many accounts)? Do they sell only through their own outlet, or do they have to set wholesale prices for dealers and distributors that raises the retail pricing as well, since they need to cover all of their costs in that wholesale total they will actually be paid instead of the retail one the customer will be paying? Is the price of labor where they are different than that of another company that is producing similar products? Was the development time on that item especially long for any number of reasons? How strong is the currency in the country where the item is produced and sold as compared to the currency elsewhere in the world at the time it is being sold?

      All of these are potential factors, and while not all of them usually occur at once, they can combine to start hiking up prices very quickly.

      Personally -- and this is just me -- I don't make much money. I turn up my nose at something that is expensive just because of the name attached quite often, and it's often easy to tell when that is going on. On the other hand, I've spent a pretty penny on artist items over the years without a moment's hesitation in ways that would probably scandalize the people who can't go a season without the newest Coach purse because I know what's gone into making the items. Heck, there was a pair of $2100 boots I seriously considered for some time -- that would have been hand-made to fit me of the best materials and had a lifetime guarantee. Alas, much as I love them, that was just about 3x what I could ever justify spending, even if the price tag was more than fair.

      That's really the big problem in the end for the most part -- people don't want to have to give up what they want because it's out of their price range. Unfortunately, that is a part of life for (almost) everybody.
       
    20. I was waiting for someone to bring this up, some country that had an exception to the vast majority.

      Are all of your supplies and expenses similarly covered? All of the food and rent and clothing required during that time? Sketchbooks? Pencils, even?