The consequences of copied dolls

Putting aside everything else there's simply no way you can say definitively that a person who claims they wouldn't have bought the legit doll over a recast actually wouldn't have in the long run. You can't see the future and any number of circumstances that may make them change their mind somewhere down the line. If the recast wasn't available and they had no other option then there's a good possibility that if they love the doll enough they may come around to any price tag and decide they want it enough to save up, even if it's the first time in their life they'd ever done such a thing, and even if it's the only time in their life they spend that much on a doll or luxury item.

And even if that one person really would have never bought the legit doll, by buying a recast and supporting recasting it 100% does have a financial effect on the artists and companies because the very existence of that fake doll devalues the real ones, lowers the demand and affects the perceived second hand value, as St. James has already mentioned has been discussed many times before in this thread and others.

 

True! I hadn't quite thought about that aspect exactly. There are a number of rare and expensive dolls that I fell in love with, assumed I would never own, and six years later now own. The circumstances were unusual in most cases - a friend handing it to me and telling me to pay him whenever, or a seller using terrible auction photos so I had a surprise low bid win, or a sudden change in plans allowing me to sell off a doll that was worth a lot right before an order period closed. I never could have predicted that. If there were recasts floating around of those dolls, well, that might make them more common secondhand and I could have accidentally purchased one, or if I were less upstanding I could have bought a recast knowingly. But that future didn't happen. I waited, and waited, and waited, and so far there haven't been any Must Have Or Else dolls that have eluded me forever.

 

That is a really good point.

 

Honestly - if someone told me "Oh, I'll never EVER get X doll from X company! It's too expensive! I'll never buy it from the company!" and then went and bought a recast of exactly that doll, I'd probably consider them a complete and utter moron and ignore them henceforth. Because obviously, they did want that doll or they wouldn't have got the recast.

To me, it's very simple: If you want a doll, buy a legitimate one, either from the company or on the second hand market. If you think it's too expensive - well, then you probably don't want it as much as you thought you did or else, you'd be willing to save up for it.

 

No, it's really not-- words do not exist in a vacuum, for starters, and the words we choose to say or not say have consequences-- one of the things that was touched on was the morale of the artists. An artist reading your first post might very well feel that keenly because they would not KNOW that you were speaking as a devil's advocate and that you had had your own art stolen and knew what a blow it could be. They'd just see the argument that it doesn't really do that much harm and make their assumptions based on only the things laid out in that post.

 

It's impossible to speculate about future intentions of recast buyers. What I said before is FACT - money in the pocket of criminals is never a good or helpful thing, if anyone is truly bothered about not hurting the genuine company - especially when there are alternatives, with a bit of work and patience.

 

If someone wants a doll enough... they will save up the money for it. I thought I'd never have the money to buy my grail doll... and yet, mysteriously, I have her on layaway. "Not being able to buy that doll at the original price" means "I am too lazy to save up money for that doll." Instead of buying a recast, it would be better to put the money in a jar with a "saving up for this doll!" sign on it.

 

Let's face it, there's no way to justify theft. It's really funny to read all those justifications when in fact people just want to save some bucks because they're greedy and just want want WANT! a doll so much, that they pull their arguments out of their arses.

Can't get an expensive LE directly from the company because you don't have the money? Well, tough luck. Either you buy it second hand or wait for it to be re released. Recast-buyers may now stomp their feet and go: "Noo, I want it! I want it now!"

And then people come with the argument, that a LE doll, that hasn't been re released yet and was originally released years ago, won't hurt the company, because they don't sell it anymore anyways and won't get any money out of it now. Well, but guess what? It's still their doll that's being copied. It would still be theft. You just use that "argument" to feel better about yourselves and to justify your actions again. Well done, lads!

And it's not just LEs that get copied (which I can at least kind of understand, because I also want some LEs, but was too late when they're released, a pity really ^^). A new doll, take for example a new Soom doll, is released and people go: "Wow! That one's cute, I wonder whether enough people will like it, so we can make a recast group order, hehehe~! We are sooo clever and save a lot of money." "Yeah, that's right! I can now buy three or more in one go, which I couldn't, if it was just one legit doll!" Yes, I've seen the box opening threads.

Ah, yes. There's also the whine about impossible hybrids. Want a hybrid of famous doll companies in tan skin (or whatever) and one part doesn't match? Well, then there are a lot of people who could dye them or blush them the right colour for you, if you can't do that yourself. But, well. Again, recast-buyers may now stomp their feet and go: "But I don't want to spend even more money on that if I could have a recast that already comes in tan and with the parts like I want them!"

Really, there is no other explanation other than saving money. It's still some hundreds, depending on the doll itself, but for that you get a russian roulette recast. Sarcastic yay! And the recasters can expand to other companies, since they now have a basic income. Great going, guys! Your cheapness will not in any way backfire on the whole hobby. Oh wait, no! it already has!

tldr: Yes, BJDs are expensive. What did you expect from this hobby?

 

^ This. Even if it's just a few dollars in a coffee can each week, save up if you want it badly enough.

That's what I'm doing for my grail doll: spare change goes in a mason jar while I wait for a windfall. I will own him one day. I just need to be patient.

I hate to bring it up, but I think part of this is the "cheap doll" mentality. Those of us who have been around a while are used to the idea that it's expensive and may require saving. In my experience, newcomers who balk about how expensive a $200 doll is seem more likely to think that anything more is "too expensive" and look for a cheap alternative. And then I stop talking to this or that friend because they bought a recast.

 

I have been quite shocked to find a number of Facebook groups that tolerate recasts. I have never bought a counterfeit copy of anything, and I don`t intend to start now!

 

great post Laoky Some people feel good about saving up and waiting/working hard for something genuine - Other people feel good about pulling a fast trick and 'cleverly' getting something similar, but fake, for less money - and hang the long term consequences, so long as they get what they want.

 

my main fear with recasts is the people who are new to the hobby and don't know where to shop. For example, me last year, gets on google and looks up Bjd stores online. click on a link from a place claiming to be an American family owned business. awesome right? i find a doll i like but not having doa or any other resources i have no idea how much the legit doll costs (i did know recasts were cheaper) but because i'm not new to buying things online i thought I'd look up the site. Recasts, The place is in China not America. I was about to buy a recast, because i legitimately did not know. it took hours of digging just to find where they admit to being recast on the website. so i guess what I'm saying is i worry that recasts could get some beginners in trouble with how they've gotten. (also because i felt so bad having almost bought it as a recast im now saving for my 4th doll to be the legit of the one i almost got even though price was what made me like it at first)

 

I don't have much to add... I feel like most of the things I would say have been covered a million times before, but for a person as vehemently anti-recast as I am, I feel like I should at least post to this thread with something, some input, anything on my part...

Recasts are hurtful to the community as a whole, and that, "that" in particular, is the greatest consequence I can discuss. They've killed trust in the community, we can't know if the dolls people are posting or trying to sell are genuine or not anymore. Sometimes you can't even know. For example I really want a Volks School A but I can never own one now. School heads don't come with papers or a headplate or anything that can definitely label them as the genuine article so I'd be out of a few hundred dollars if I were to accidentally purchase one.

The marketplace is growing stale... Sure, recasts aren't the only thing at fault but they are definitely part of the problem. Heads and bodies and full dolls that would be otherwise sold now float on the marketplace for months on end without a buyer nabbing them due to fear, the prices drop and the dolls still remain unsold a lot of the time.

And the companies keep suffering... Money from the unsold dolls could potentially go to purchasing new dolls, and recasters keep getting more money and buying even more sculpts -limited and basic and artist dolls- to recast, and it's all just a vicious circle...

It's made me feel tired and it's made me almost lose friends that thought that buying recasts were okay because of our differing views. So... I don't think I like where this all is going...

 

It keeps getting mentioned that the marketplace has grown stale and dolls take longer to sell, but as a moderator I have to disagree. Since we manually move all sold dolls out of the marketplace, we see the actual volume of dolls sold on a daily basis and it has not dropped. What has changed is the total volume of dolls being sold and the range of original retail price points. Expensive dolls take longer to sell because there are less expensive options now and because the age demographic of the hobby has dropped. Recasts have certainly had an impact, but the shifts in market trends started before recasts became so prevalent in the Western market. Buyers are spoiled for choice and sellers have to work harder to make a sale, but secondhand sales are actually up.

 

yes I agree St. James - I don't think difficulties selling used dolls are anything to do with recasting, so much as the days when a doll held its value are over - because buyers now have such a huge amount of sculpts and companies to choose from/be tempted by - Unless you are prepared to wait a year for a sale, pricing used dolls needs to become more competitive than it traditionally has been, because the market is saturated.

 

This is something I'm really worried about. I was hoping to buy a doll second hand for my first doll, but after reading about how hard it is to tell, I'm worried that I might run into a fake.

 

I hear that it's very hard to tell through pictures (if they're taken in a deceiving way). If you're buying second hand, you might want to request that they take high quality photos up close. Apparently you can tell through the quality of the details in the lips and ears (small detailed places that recasts often don't duplicate very well).

 

Thank you, Sheyda -- that's information I really needed, being new to the hobby. Good thinking!

 

I think if you're new to the hobby, detailed photos might not help much if you had nothing to compare it with. What I always do when buying a used doll from ebay is message the seller and ask them for the doll's history (if it's not in the listing already) Where did they get it from and how long ago? Do they have any proof of authenticity like papers and original box? But bear in mind some people only have one or the other - some dolls don't or didn't come with paperwork - sometimes dealers forget to put it in!

But be suspicious, and don't be embarrassed to ask questions - it is up to them to prove the doll's authenticity if they want a sale. Double-check if it's a doll popular with recasters, such as fairyland, luts or iplehouse, or the other big names like soom etc. - especially if it's a rare or limited sculpt. Recasters don't bother with cheaper brands because it's not worth their time, so you are safe with a used bobobie, angel of dream, impldoll, resinsoul. Also be aware that someone can say they bought a doll on DoA marketplace - instantly reassuring right? Well ask them when - ask them what their username is - go check their feedback etc. as they could be lying/namedropping! The sales thread will most likely have been deleted though, which is a shame as it would allow us to double-check a doll's history.

 

The Dolls Marketplace Graveyard is accessible to anyone with Marketplace access and all sales threads for dolls sold since 2012 are still there. One of the reasons we retain this information - and forbid sellers from stripping the thread of its content once a doll has sold - is to aid buyers in doing research. They may be able to trace a specific doll's provenance, and both buyers and sellers can see what typical sales trends are for particular sculpts. If you see a doll for sale on eBay at a much lower price than any of the past DoA sales for that doll, it's a good time to ask the seller a lot of questions.