The consequences of copied dolls

oh that's great to know St. James - thanks for that information! I didn't realise I could see dolls in the graveyard too - although sadly a lot of threads have the photos deleted once the doll is sold, which really frustrates me - I guess people think if the doll's not theirs they can't show photos of it, but it would be helpful to leave the photo links intact.

 

I have a hard time selling dolls when the sculpt or company is not popular but when I sold my Iplehouse and fairyland dolls they went out like fresh hot pancakes

The sad thing about being a newbie is looking for the dolls in google because if the doll they are looking for is very popular and limited (Volks, Soom etc) the main page comes up with recasters links...this happened to me when I was searching for a volks sculpt just to see more photos because I knew it was out of stock^^ but for a newbie, they might think that's the real doll and buy it without knowing that it is a copy...even I was fooled once and ignorantly, I posted a question here asking whether or not a doll was a recast.

Someone who can't afford an original doll shouldn't be in this hobby, seriously. This hobby is not cheap and even if the doll is cheap everything else will not be...even if you do face ups, you still need to purchase high quality material to avoid damage on the resin...kudos for those who make clothes though^^ but still, if you have no money for a doll the best option is to save up and then get the original. The fake one will never be the same as the original (quality wise) and I take pride in this hobby, the way a doll is made carefully just for you will never equal to one doll that takes just one week to produce and not made with love.

 

The better phrasing would be "someone who isn't willing to save up for an original doll shouldn't be in this hobby".

If you can drop, say, $300 on a recast, then you can damn well buy a real doll. There are PLENTY of dolls at or below that price point. If your heart is set on a more expensive doll, then you can put that $300 toward saving up for that doll. It isn't that people who actively buy recasts "can't afford" the real thing; it's that they're entitled brats who don't want to put in the effort to get the real thing.

There are a LOT of people in this hobby who legitimately cannot afford a doll of any kind, not without saving and sacrifice that they may or may not be able to make. I think they have as much right and place in this hobby as those of us fortunate enough to own multiple dolls. It's the people that actively go and buy/promote recasts that have no damn business being in this hobby.

 

Yes, that's a better phrasing I completely agree with everything! most people who buy recasts often use the excuse "I can't afford it" but I didn't mean to say that people who are less fortunate than others when it comes to money can't be in this hobby, that's why I mentioned "if you have no money for a doll the best option is to save up". but you reword it better^^

 

Exactly. For the past two years I had to live off of $400 a month. My RENT alone was more. So, suffice to say, I literally could not afford to buy a doll. Didn't make me decide to buy a recast.

If you can't afford it, you can't afford it. There is no shame in that. But in many cases, even with a small income (like I have now), it is still possible to save up for a legit doll. There are dolls of many price ranges out there right now. There simply isn't an excuse to buy recasts.

 

It's very difficult to add anything to this thread that hasn't already been said. I know some people have no conscience when it comes to ripping off someone else, but where is the "feel good" feeling in owning a fake? The whole point of collecting dolls is pride in your doll. People who buy recasts can't possibly feel any real pride in their stolen property, and, if they are passing them off as the real thing, they are lying every time they show it off to someone. Those people are not doll collectors--they are garbage collectors. No offence to our sanitation people, but where's the "feel good" in that?

 

I know what you mean. I didn't know what a recast was until I found this website. I asked someone at an anime convention where they bought their dolls (probably the only reason I didn't end up buying from a recaster website). I bought two second hand dolls from ebay before I joined here so I've got no clue if they are real or not. They certainly look like the dolls they are supposed to be and they charged me close to the price they were worth (like $20-40 off what they cost from the company).

When I first got in to this hobby I thought recasters were basically the shops from China selling their SD dolls for $100-300 and MoC and DDE were some evil American companies that were marking up their dolls 200-500% and taking in a giant profit. I only went through MoC because I didn't know who to trust in China with my credit card info and the lady I asked seemed really sure they were a great vendor to get dolls through. (They are my favorite company now even if they are slow).

I used to think $200 for a doll was a stupid amount. Now I'm dropping $800+ on a doll... how times have changed.

 

I didn't know what recast was for years even though I heard the word thrown around here and there. It wasn't until someone started ranting about ir that I thought, I should probably figure out what the controversy is. And suddenly the world imploded and all I ever saw in the hobby was fighting over recast. It's really dampened my opinion on the hobby as a whole :/

 

That is because we who fight against recasters, are truly passionate about the hobby's survival and integrity. Saying nothing about it or being "recast friendly" is like allowing this hobby to die out.

If a person buys a recasted doll. either from a limited or not, the funds from that doll does not go into supporting the Doll artists who make the legit dolls, or even to the hobbyists who sell a legit second hand doll and may use that funds to buy a legit doll in the future.
No, the funds go to the people who willfully steal from another to make a profit for themselves.

Those funds, then support the criminal activity. If you buy recasts, then you are supporting criminals.

I have heard many a BJD owner say that in buying legit BJD and collecting them...."Crack is cheaper." That is probably true.
Crack is also made by verious criminal gangs all over the world who use the funds from drug sells to fund terrorist actives or other criminal activity.

Recasted Dolls may seen harmless to some, but really. How can you trust Recast distributors not to be a front for a criminal organization?

 

Lol crack is cheaper. I'm not arguing the point, just stating my past experience in the hobby.

Maybe they are fronting anything from child trafficking to narcotics trade, but i think that's one hell of an assumption for petty thieves, which I believe most of them are. But what's to say a legit doll company doesn't do it either? I dunno, in my line of work, I've met meth cooks I'd rather spend a night in jail with than some doll owners.

 

Excuse me, but hundreds of dollars in profits is not "Petty" where does the money go? Certainly not to into sculpting more dolls, they just steal the sculpts.

Meth cooks are supporting criminal activity, the same as recast buyers. I would certainly would not like associate with either.

This thread Title is "The Consequences of Copied Dolls."
Who is to say that one illegal activity doesn't support another like trafficking?

Now I will wait to see if someone else throws in another view to the discussion. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

Wow, that is certainly food for thought.
As much as I assume that most re-casters are in it for themselves, a lot of "acceptable" criminal activities, such as making and selling knock-off's, do indeed support darker criminal activities. It wouldn't be completely out of the question that some of these illegal doll sellers are doing the same. That's a very uncomfortable thought. It's not like they would tell you that is where the money goes when you buy off of them.

 

Yuk, I haven't really trawled Ebay for dolls most of this year, but just whiling away some unexpected free time and am sickened at the way Ebay UK now seems to be "Home of Recasts". Not just sellers in China using what look like pics of legit dolls and thinly disguised names (possibly stolen from the legit company website? I am no expert but recognise a few sculpts) to promote their wide array of knock-offs, but also UK collectors happily reselling their Recast dolls.

I was more shocked to see a former legitimate doll collector I have previously bought from now selling selling on a mix of recast and legit dolls from her collection, even some hybrids… I would never buy from her again. To me it seems just a short and slippery slope to maybe "forgetting" to tell the buyer that your hybrid doll is a legit head on a recast bod (or vice versa) and so I don't feel I could trust that person anymore.

I am sure the Recast defenders will say that they are all being above-board (not the Chinese shop perhaps) and clearly labelling their sales as recast but Ebay is lending an air of legitimacy to the whole recast doll market. I know from personal experience that there is absolutely no point in reporting any of this to Ebay as they are simply not interested… so much for their much trumpeted fight against piracy and knock offs.

All of this makes me really sad as I live in the UK - with our crazily high and tightly controlled import and duty taxes… I have regularly looked to adopt second hand legit UK/EU dolls as it saves on those crippling taxes. I doubt I will have the confidence to do so in future, certainly not from Ebay, that's for sure! Recasters and the people who support them are maybe not ruining this hobby, but certainly making it a very different place than it was just 2 years ago, somewhere I am starting to tread carefully

 

I couldn't agree with you more vonbonbon - I keep a 'blacklist' of ebay sellers who sell used recasts, so that I can avoid ALL their sales - I don't want them to buy more recasts with my money. At least 2 of the people on my list have apparently legit dolls etc for sale in the MP here on DoA regularly too, with different usernames (one member changed her ebay username, which used to be her DoA name too, to hide her identity I guess)

I also find ebay depressing recently - it's awash with used recasts at the moment. When I list dolls on ebay I'm aware of the fact that most serious doll collectors no longer bother with used dolls from ebay because of these recast sellers, which in itself is a terrible shame and proof that buying recasts does indeed damage the hobby badly, because it makes it harder for me to sell a used, genuine doll - which in turn devalues them. The less money I make from ebay sales, the less I then have to spend next time I go doll shopping - and that of course damages the income of BJD companies, possibly forcing them to cut corners on safety for their employees, or make staff cuts and redundancies. These people making our dolls in Asia are doing laborious, precise work in an unpleasant, potentially unhealthy environment - They have families to feed, rent to pay etc. and deserve a decent wage and working conditions, not redundancy and health hazards.

Also bear in mind that recast dolls aren't as skillfully made or well finished as genuine dolls - so could they possibly be made by children? Forced child labour is not pretty.

 

Also, I keep hearing recast buyers saying that they cannot afford to buy legit dolls. Elve, I imagine we are talking about the same people here, one in particular regularly lists 3 and 4 recasts for resale at a time and there is quite a quick turn over, so that person must have shelled out rather a lot of money to get themselves a largish doll collection. Kind of blows the "poor me, I can't afford a legit doll" BS out of the water.

I have been quite shocked at how much they are asking for the recasts too, not exactly a small amount of money. If that is an accurate reflection of how much they bought the dolls for then there are plenty of legit companies out there charging less for really decent dolls these days.

 

The Chinese sellers of recasts on ebay were mostly copying Iplehouse, Fairyland, and Soom, since they make popular sculpts--but recently I saw them selling multiples of the little dragon, which is the main thing sold by a lesser-known company. It's sad to see since cutting into the sales of a small company like that can tend to kill them off.

I keep reporting the ebay auctions to ebay and to the (usually Korean) companies who are being stolen from, but ebay seems to be doing nothing, and whatever the legit companies are doing seems to not be having much effect (I'm sure they are doing all they can--I imagine that ebay just takes the auctions down, but doesn't stop the seller from putting more auctions up!).

I've heard there are re-casts sold through Amazon, too. (I know a seller--not of bjds-- who had to sue Amazon because they kept selling rip-off's of his products even though he kept reporting them-- He said people kept having problems with the fakes and would complain in Feedbacks and Reviews that ALSO hurt his business!-- He got fed up and had to sue Amazon and he WON. So the courts know there is damage being done to companies that are getting ripped off--but suing is an expensive and time-consuming process itself, and he was a US company with US resources being much easier for them, unlike Korean companies trying to sue a BIG company like Amazon from a different country with a different language and different laws...!)

I would like there to be a page of re-cast supporters and sellers, so I can know who to beware of. I can spot the Chinese sellers since they are very obvious to anyone who knows something about bjds (unlike newbies).

The people buying re-casts are supremely selfish. Like those who are buying drugs because they feel it is their business--they don't care about all the side-effects like drug lords and gang killing tons of people in other countries and here. The re-casters and supporters don't see that it cuts into the ability of companies to make dolls and stay in business. They don't see that it cuts into the ability of legit owners to sell their dolls. They don't see that these dolls go into circulation and can be used to scam people or go to people who don't know what they are buying... It really makes me sad and angry.

I wrote to one of the Ebay sellers (selling multiples of these re-cast sculpts per auction), telling them they are stealing and having buyers import these products into the US against US laws.

The seller said they were a big fan of bjds and were just helping people who can't afford them to get dolls. (The typical ridiculous excuses.)

I wrote back saying, how would they feel if they were a bjd artist/sculptor and after work to make sculpts and develop a company and buyers, someone came in and just stole from them==so that all that hard work, time and money was wasted? It would be like someone taking all the seller's inventory and selling them for cheap because they didn't have to work and pay to get all that stuff--AND people would buy the cheaper stuff and not even buy from the original company--so they would be stolen from in another way!

They just wrote back and said my English was very good. *sigh*

I know there are bad people in the world. I know that many people just really don't care and will take anything they can get away with. I just wish there was a way to effectively stop these people from doing the wrong thing (since they seem to have no sense of right and wrong themselves). It's frustrating. It's just sad...

 

On German Ebay, we are monitoring an interesting trend: Recasts are getting more and more expensive. If that continues, one major argument for recasts goes overboard: affordability.

To me, that is actually a good thing. Why then buy the dubious recast, when you can have the high-quality original for just a tiny bit more?

Gives good conscience, and you get the full company service.

 

April, around last Christmas, I Bookmarked the 2 private individuals I saw offering recasts on Ebay UK so that I would never buy from them in the future… I haven't been there for months and now there are now many other recasts listed. So I went and looked through the seller history of those 2 originals and was aghast at the number of dolls they have sold during that 6 months and also the number of smaller artists who have been ripped off. I have seen the dragon BJD you mentioned too.

Someone told me that recasters take requests from customers and will buy a legit doll to recast if there is enough interest. For me that breaks the last excuse that Recast Apologists have given. They always like to give this impression that

1: poor BJD lover X just bought a cheap recast of a doll they love because they could never afford the real thing

2: They further state that BJD lover X should not be criticised in any way for the illegal activities of the nasty recasters as they can't be blamed for another person breaking the law. This is the old argument used by those who buy a pair of Ugg boots that "fell off the back of a lorry" or from "a man down the pub" - the illegal part was nothing to do with them and the criminals would just go and steal something else and sell to someone else, so where's the harm?

Excuse number 1 is clearly blown out of the water by the recast buyer collecting 5 or 6 recast dolls at prices that prove they had the money to buy at least 3 legit dolls from high end companies all the time.

Excuse 2 is rubbish as they are enabling criminal activity by creating a market for it. No-ne would steal Ugg boots if there weren't people out there unwilling to pay the full price and even more unwilling to ask questions about where their "cheap" pair came from.

But any tenuous "innocence" on the part of the buyer gets torpedoed by those who are willing to bring a sculpt or an artist to the attention of a recaster. That person can't claim that they don't know what the recaster does is illegal and by asking for specific sculpts they are commissioning the crime. If they then point out a small French doll artist or an American sculptor who sells on etsy then they can't even use the old excuse (which gets used against the Japanese and Korean companies all the times, but is equally invalid) that they assumed they were a big company who wouldn't be hurt by the dint in their profits.

The whole issue just makes me very sad and jaded.

 

Sometimes that whole recast issue makes me want to do a Kickstarter project to raise enough money to pay a lawyer - a good one - and make him sue the pants off eBay ...

 

It already exists. Its called copyright.
If the doll company wants to take it further they will.
It is for them to make the move.
On not only the recasting company, but the collector too.
Realistically in the whole scheme of things it is there as a deterrent.
I don't agree with it but it happens.
And instead of banging on about something that is out of my control,I would prefer to concern
Myself with things I can change.
Like why we raise millions for cancer research.
And the discover a drug then want to charge the earth for it or not make it available to the people who need it.

Yes it's shameful that art gets copied. All the good stuff does.
But lets get real, its not to change.