The consequences of copied dolls

You will always be found out if you are passing off a recast as a real one. It's impossible to disguise it or not let it slip in conversation forever. And much like any person who "got away with something" the desire for others to know just how clever you are will undo anyone in the end. It always does. It's just human nature.

 

I totally don't see it like that. I belive that nobody who truly understands the process of 'how did Lillycat dolls became well-known Cerisedolls' or 'how did Iplehouse Asa became THIS Iplehouse Asa' or 'why Fairyland Chloe is THIS Fairyland Chloe' would even consider buying a fake! It's totally missing the idea of this hobby. I can't find any reason why I would like to buy a cheap piece of resin made by thieves and make them earn money they totally do not deserve. It doesn't make any sense to me. If someone 'didn't like the sculpt enough' so why would he even want to buy it?! If someone 'can not afford to buy the real doll' why he wants to spend so much money (it's still not cheap) on a fake?
Dolls are not necessary to live. We are buying them for entertainment, for making us happy. How buying a illegal copy with knowing it's bad can make someone happy? What the hell is wrong with the world?

 

I 100% disagree with this. You seem to think that "bjd companies" are huge entities, like Walmart or Hasbro; they're smaller enterprises, and most of them are not "overloaded with orders most of the year." Some companies are a bit larger and do brisk business, it's true, but for every one of those, there's probably a half-dozen smaller companies, with only a few employees and a much lower order volume. And regardless of size, all companies are hurt by this activity. Size does not matter. Even international companies can be harmed by bootlegging; while I'm not sure if any BJD companies have folded due to theft, there are in fact other companies that have closed up because of it, and they are not necessarily small ones. Saying you "don't think it will make any difference" is a form of enabling the recasters, because what you're really saying here is "they aren't really hurting anyone but the independent artists, the rest of the companies can take it."

Once again, you are validating the activities of recasters and those who buy them. Someone who knowingly buys a recast did like the sculpt, and could certainly afford to buy the real deal if they would just make the effort. Those who knowingly buy a recast doll either don't think they should have to bother with the quest for one on the secondhand market, think it's "not fair" that the doll they want was only released as a limited edition that they couldn't get for whatever reason, or think they're "too expensive" and "these evil big companies are making huge amounts of money off us, so screw 'em." Take a read through the rest of this thread to see some excellent information on how much money these "big evil doll companies" are really making.

Again, you are wrong. Recast companies are not always well known, and there are plenty of people around who may not know about their activities. Similarly, the authentic companies do not necessarily know about their work being recast until someone (that is, collectors and hobbyists like those of us here) alert them to the activity. Do you really think Lilycat spends her free time browsing recast sellers to see if her work is there? Do you really think people at Fairyland, Volks or Soom do the same? They know about these cases largely thanks to the efforts of the community in reporting them, and to help prevent more of them entering the marketplace, we as a community have much more of a responsibility than just "the secondhand market."

 

Emphasis mine because I am not really sure you understand the sheer cost involved with the law, especially as it varies from country to country which makes it even harder to pursue cases for people and companies alike. The price and time alone that it would cost these companies to hire a proper legal team to go after every single case of recasting would be outrageous. The fact is, it shouldn't have to come to that point anyway.

And I can personally guarantee that the original companies are not aware of every recasting case, as I had to inform Fairyland of a new off-site recaster just a few weeks ago. They had no idea if their presence, and were grateful for the information. "Most of us" knowing is far from the truth too, you can look in newbie threads and find plenty of people asking about recasting sites or commenting on how they almost bought them because they didn't know until they were provided with proper information. This community is well informed and vocal - but DoA is not the entire bjd hobby, and new uninformed people are finding it every day.

These companies and individual artists aren't giant conglomerates like Mattel that can afford massive legal teams and the time to hunt out copyright infringements - they are still small scale operations in the business world that are tight on time, resources, and even manpower sometimes. I really don't know why this is so hard to understand, since it seems to be the most common misconception in the recast debate.

 

I know exactly how BJD companies are working, but i also know that me and many others had warned BJD companies about recast sellers i did that 3 times for two different companies and after a year the link to recast dolls still there and available, so I'm saying they are not doing their part as it should be, i guess after warning a company no matter how small it is that someone is stealing their art they should fight for it, and it is mentioned at the start of this thread that it's not a place to say it's good or bad or evil so i did not say i'm against it and definitely i don't validate it and I'm not in a position to do so

 

I, along with many others, once again point out that this is not feasibly possible due to the cost of legal teams as well as copyright issues between countries. What do you want the companies to do otherwise? Storm the recast factories with a trojan horse and throw bricks through the windows? Being told to stop isn't going to stop the recasters, and I doubt someone very wealthy is just going to pony up the cash for all the lawsuits that would need to happen. Beyond that, even if they do manage to get legal teams on the case, it doesn't just go smoothly and end in a day - it can take a really freaking long time to end a case. You are blaming the company for not doing something that they are honestly not capable of doing, which is like telling an 80 pound kid that he should just suck it up and fight the 200 pound kid that stole his lunch because otherwise he isn't doing his job at keeping his sandwich safe.

The issue that people are taking with your comment and similar arguments is the flawed logic behind it, whatever your personal stance may or may not be.

 

I know buying recast is less an issue of not being able to afford legit than it is an instant gratification issue. They want it NOW. If you can afford to save up $200 for a recast, you are perfectly capable of saving more and buying the real thing. And if your finances absolutely will not allow that, then you probably need to find a new hobby anyway.

 

Nefer's post filled me with so many emotions. She and Lilycat are beautiful people. Coming from the place of an artist, I can say we understand better the crushing defeat of situations like this. Artists are underpaid and underrepresented all the time. Little to nothing in our world would be possible without an artist behind it, but people still think that we are dumb, or slackers, or don't do real work, and that it is our fault our art is stolen. The fact of the matter is, in a luxury hobby, of all things, if you can't afford something and can't be bothered to save up for it, then you simply do not deserve it. Everyone these days is all about instant gratification and the hyper-consumerism is killing what we love.

 

I am pissed at all the recasts clogging up ebay. I report them to ebay--and you it takes TIME and EFFORT and that is time and effort not being productive. I tell the various doll companies. They are spending time and effort reporting these auctions AND THAT TAKES AWAY FROM BEING ABLE TO PRODUCE DOLLS. They also tell me that they have tried hard to stop re-casts, but they are in a different country than China, where most re-casts are made, and if you know anything at all about trying to pursue someone in the law, you will understand that it means that they need to stop them under China's laws using people in China to pursue the case. This takes time and money. AND it takes a legal system that actually cares about stopping re-casts, and if you think any legal system around the world cares so much--particularly China, where only severe world pressure even makes them think copying and making fakes is bad, you need to look into the matter.

Doll companies having to fight this all on their own depletes their ability to stay in business and make dolls. It is like the drug trade--it will happen because THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT IT. So it is NOT all on the companies. It is on the thieving creeps who buy re-casts, too. They are the ones who send dolls off to be re-cast in the first place!

When I write to tell companies about re-casts, I say that Ebay and Amazon doesn't care. They tell me, it seems that way to them, too, since they report the auctions and sales and nothing is done. They are frustrated along with everyone else who is an honest hard-working person.

Also... there's a reason companies get back-logged with orders. They are too short-handed to be able to make them more quickly!!! Do you think doll companies WANT to go slowly? That's just ridiculous. If they could make all their dolls quickly, they'd be happier. But it doesn't work that way.

ALL companies and ALL buyers are hurt by re-casts.

Doll companies are not getting rich. They stay in business by making enough money to pay workers. Taking time and money to pursue copies cuts into their business. People who buy the copies, knowing and unknowing, hurt potential sales. If they can't make a living from dolls, they will have to close down.

Buyers are hurt by re-casts. If they can't sell dolls easily, they will have a harder time buying new dolls, which will hurt the companies. And it will be harder to sell easily because many people will be suspicious of dolls being sold, since there are more re-casts out there. Already many people are recommending that people only buy directly from companies! The second-hand market is very important to this hobby. Hurting it will hurt the hobby.

I think re-casts will actually KILL the hobby.

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Nefer Kane talks about how artists who get re-cast feel depressed and even suicidal, and how artists have children that need to eat and can barely do so as it is, but can't when their dolls are copied and basically stolen.

Small artist-owned company or larger company that has several artists working there, this is still stealing their hard work and their love of making dolls. It is taking food from the artists' mouths and from their families. And it takes food from all the other people working for the companies, both big and small.

It totally sucks on all levels!!!

 

Fact is: Recasts wouldn't be a problem if people wouldn't buy them. Because those recasters hardly would waste time and money on something they can't sell. So I'm blaming the recast-buyers a whole lot more for all the problems recasts cause than I blame the recasters. Of course what the recasters is doing is wrong - but on the other hand, they're just catering to demand. No demand for recasts - no recasts. So the REAL culprits, imho, are the recast-buyers. And they're the ones who're really pissing me off because all their pro-recast arguments are null and void and always seem to boil down to "but I'm ENTITLED to have whatever I want to have and I don't care what consequences it'll have on the legit doll companies and on doll artists because all I care about is memeME!"

 

I applaud you! This is so true.

 

I believe recasts are hurting the hobby but I think it's hyperbolic to say it's the doom of the hobby. And ultimately it is the bjd companie's responsibility to fight recasts legally. We can shout about how they can't afford to fight them and how the recastsrs are hiding in china but ultimately our constant screaming hasn't accomplished jack diddly. Other than not buying recasts what exactly is the average hobbyist supposed to do to "fight recasters"? Do people honestly believe the western bjd market is solely funding recasting? You can look at Chinese bjd sites and see recasts sell pretty well over there. I just feel like all this #stopallrecasting isn't actually helping and is just a way for people to try and target anyone not participating.

It seems like if you aren't actively frothing at the mouth about how much you hate recasts you become an instant target of accusations and I find that a little ridiculous. I'm anti recast and I think that's pretty effed up.

 

I think the issue is that people who are not frothing at the mouth about recasts are people who might someday be tempted to buy one, because recasts don't make them as angry as they do other people. And that is what gets people angry... the possibility that someone they know might be tempted to get a recast because they don't want to save up for a doll they want.
Just because it is only in China that recasts are selling well does not mean it is not bad. Many of these dolls that are recasted are not quantity limited dolls. It's easier for anyone to go "oh I'll just wait until it's recasted" than buy anything for the original price, and the only thing we can do is continuing to report recast sellers and buyers wherever we see them. I know someone is trying to work with a lot of doll companies together to try to actually stop recasters but it is taking time. Legal proceedings move slowly and eat money.

 

I must add though... The Chinese market for recasts is predominately for what are generally considered the big companies of BJDs, such as Volks, Fairyland, Soom and Iplehouse. But the Western recast community are sending artist dolls and work from tiny companies to be recast.

It's not hard to imagine that buying a recast of a Volks limited has a different effect from buying recast of a doll by a single artist. It's like shoplifting from Walmart versus stealing from an artist's stall at a fair. Both morally wrong, but one has more impact than the other.

So I'm afraid I have to disagree that the problem is as distant as you are suggesting. The Chinese recasters sell what Western consumers order. So if we can encourage honesty and support for the artists, that can only be good.

 

I didn't suggest the problem was distant at all, merely that i think it's incredibly naieve to think the western market is what's driving the majority of recast sales.

So is there an certain level of anger you must display daily to make people think you'd never buy a recast? How many tumblr posts stating you are anti recast must you make to make people think your above temptation. That all just sounds ridiculous to me. You shouldn't have to prove how anti you really are with constant anti recast rants and pro artist #s. Just not buying recasts should be enough.

 

And yet, if you look at the procedence of the buyers (in Alibaba they are marked with country flags), yuou'll see that the large marjority of recast buyers are from United States and Russia.

 

Alibaba is an english site, of course the majority of recast sales from there would be to US. The percentage of sales from the Taobao stores tend to be mostly sales to chinese buyers. Also Italy seems to make quite a few purchases from there for some weird reason.

 

Indeed, this makes it easier for us to see who is buying what. And Chinese buyers go for popular dolls they want cheap, and western buyers seem to buy a lot more limited artist dolls. ( Which to me looks like a bit of an "I'll show you!" to the artists for not selling them the doll they want and cheap enough?)

Of course, many western recast buyers are motivated by greed only, but I can't help noticing that there seems to be a kind of competitive attitude to. An attitude that owning recasts makes you part of the anti den of angels community. This attitude, unlike pure greed can be questioned and challenged.

Western collectors are the ones sending dolls to be recast without profiting themselves. These are the recast collectors who should stand to be criticised, less so the ones who were just entitled and greedy.

So while I agree that there should not be a blanket attack on anyone and everyone who isn't seen to be anti recast, meanwhile doing nothing for fear of hurting people feelings is not, for me, the only alternative.

 

^ I agree with all of this entirely

 

I have been in the bjd hobby since about 2009? I think and buy from a reputable dealer or doll shop. I never had heard of recasts until early last year. When I found out what they were I nearly fell on the floor. The fact someone would buy a doll, recast it and sell it --1, that puts you on a new low- like the theif who would steal your tv or your car, chop it up for parts. Maybe that example is extreme, but I really feel like some of the other posters here that the recast BUYERS are the problem. Why not take the time to SAVE the funds needed to buy the doll instead of buying a fake? Do these people even understand the bjd hobby, is what I wonder.

You have to be careful in the bjd groups on facebook or the vitrolic insults spewed by the recast buyers is insane yesterday-- many of them claimed 'all dolls welcome' when people did the picture support the bjd artists was being 'violated' on some of the groups. I felt sorry for the admins on some of these groups.