The consequences of copied dolls

Well, at least for me, it's not a matter of "if you're not clearly stating you're anti-recast then I'll assume you're pro-recast". It's rather like "if you show me you're pro-recast (by buying one or speaking out for recasts) you're not a person I want to be associated with" because, most likely, we have completely different ideas about moral behaviour anyways.

Edit: Isn't there anything that can be done about the pro-recast Facebook groups? Like, make Facebook aware that the people in those groups are all about dolls that aren't legal? (Not that I'd expect Facebook to care any more about that kind of thing than eBay ...)

On a more positive note, Lillycat posted on Facebook that, obviously, her lawyer managed to get the Constantine recast pulled off the net. *cheers for Lillycat's lawyer*

 

I'm glad to hear that at least one recast is gone now, thanks for that update, Khell!

For my own part, it's about the same. If you state that you're pro-recast, then I am now anti-you. I don't do anything bootlegged here; my art, my DVDs, my software (yes, that includes Adobe Creative Suite/Photoshop), and of course my dolls are all legit. I've seen the many ways bootlegging hurts industries, and do not approve of it.

This may not be the only doll community around, but it is the largest, and by being strongly anti-recast here, that can serve as a deterrent to people who might have considered a recast, but don't want to be ostracised from the community. If being vocal about condemning both the recasters and those who buy their bootlegged dolls turns even a few people from being tempted by the lower price, faster shipping, or limited that they'd have to hunt for, I think it's worth it to be vocal.

 

Notice Oceanmoon put up in their Etsy store:

Another consequence of copied dolls. Isn't it ironic that the real companies and artists are asked to prove legitimacy of their own dolls now? So much so that it becomes a resources problem to them?

 

Its honestly more disappointing to me. Yes, its upsetting, but I think being angry at them doesn't always help.
Instead of throwing out anger, express your hurt to a recast buyer. Shake your head at them, lower your head and bring on a painful expression. Turn your back to them, and openly tell them it hurts your feelings. It does hurt. Its like they are slowly killing those who worked so hard while they don't seem to care, and are unappreciative. We love our artists. If someone expects to have some admiration for their getting a deal on a doll that isn't real, they have it all wrong.
Tell a recast buyer that you are ashamed and too hurt to be near them... That they hurt you through hurting an artist you care about.
They should be ashamed for what they do.
They hurt so many with their selfishness. Being angry sometimes helps, but not always. Make them want to get rid of that doll in utter embarrassment. They need to know how humiliating it feels. Anger will sometimes lead people to cling to something, and push away whatever you say.
It really is a shame. A beautiful doll isn't suddenly just magically put into this world in a minute. It takes artistic skill, team work, time, money, patience, and perseverance.
Those who want to commit to one should do the same in kind. No short cuts.

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It bothers me so much that some recast-crusader harassed Oceanmoon about it. OM has an extensive blog full of photos and details showing in-progress works from their first to present sculpts, alongside future and never-released sculpts too. They go to a lot of trouble to keep their site and blogs current, accessible and pleasant in pretty much fluent English, as well as Korean and Japanese. It's all there to see. Nowhere is or has there been an OM doll listed for a price or with any feature that gives a whiff of maybe-it's-recast. Someone was too lazy to use Google, and bothered these kind people with such intensity that they have to write this in place of their main greeting.

Bothering these artists with ill-mannered emails and forcing them to use a translation service to respond (consider too that they have to pay for translation both ways) you're only hurting the artist, not protecting their work. Please note that the statement by OM is not a consequence of copied dolls, it's a consequence of an idiot behind a keyboard going on a crusade for a good cause in a bad way, and ending up causing real harm to a small company.

Do your homework before bothering the artists directly. The hype and insanity of the community over this topic is truly going too far. Fight the good fight, but do it mindfully, please!

 

Every time there's a new company people starts wondering if it sells recasts.
I remember when X2 came out some thought they were modified Dollzone recasts, but it was simply the same artist.

 

Yeah, well, won't work - they don't care zilch about your feelings or anyone else's. Not even the artists' of whose dolls they're buying recasts.

 

Does anyone in here use bit torrent?
Pirate Bay?
Popcorn?

Just curious?

I ask because I believe it to be a social accepted practice. While what we call art, our dolls, others call objects.
What many or us do consider art, songs & movies, others consider objects, intangible but none the less...The actual CD or DVD makes it an "object".
I think it is in the same mind frame.
I'm not getting into the whole "right or wrong" issue. That's subjective and frankly mires, I think, the issue down. It does not progress the issue in any beneficial way.
I think that to diminish the behavior you have to first understand it.
I've tried, in the past, to bring this up. Unsuccessfully, in part my in ability to better articulate my thoughts and, to be frank, IMO, the in ability for hobbies to understand the behavior in order to better work toward diminishing the issue and just regurgitation of "right and wrong" statements.

 

As a matter of fact? No. I do not.

When I was younger and less educated in these things, I did use torrents to get new-release anime I wanted to follow. I've since bought most of the series I pirated that way, because I appreciated them enough that I didn't think it was right for me to steal them. I no longer use them, because I do not think it is right to steal them, when there's so many legitimate options--yes, just like dolls. All the software on my computer is legal (including Photoshop) and licensed. All the DVDs on my shelf are properly released and not sketchy knockoffs. All my art and figures, all my books, all my games are licensed and paid for properly.

And what's the effect those have had? It's a lot like what we'll see happen to the doll companies. DVDs and CDs come with copy protections; downloads are difficult to transfer between devices, to prevent "too many" copies. Anime and manga publishers have collapsed under piracy. Adobe's services are now "cloud based," and I can't just do a one-time payment for a copy to keep on my system anymore.

Guess which one of those categories doll companies will land in, if recasting continues being a problem?

 

[MENTION=27163]vicemage[/MENTION] I just learned what a torrent was mid year. lol no joke.

The question then is what made you stop?

Was it because you were younger and you didn't have a better understanding of what the ramifications of those actions were.

Is their justification in ignorance because of age. Because, I do believe, it is socially accepted to use torrents and popcorn and pirate bay...
I do tie the 2 together. The idea of "art/entertainment" should be "free".

I think this topic of recasting brings up some really interesting observations of societal norms now-a-days.

I think the lilycat letter is a better point of illustrating tangible consequences of recasting.

I just don't see how someone (s) idea of "I won't talk to that person" is a consequence. Especially in an online community. There is an online community for everything. I'm sure their ate recast online communities where they congregate and end up in "group-think".

 

Not entirely true.
Honestly I was not very knowledgeable before, but once my sister and cousin explained how disappointed they would be with me, I started to listen and understand. It won't always work, but at least its worth that effort. Every bit helps.
Thanks to them, I was avoiding fakes, became more cautious with second hand purchases, and warned others.
It helps.

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk

 

Having a Bjd is like owning art and the hobby is so expensive, the dolls are so precious, I think it's just not worth it to get some recast copy cat doll. If anyone is going to get into the hobby they really have to do some major research first about known and reliable companies before purchasing their dolls. Companies have grown so big that it's just considered stealing now when copycat Bjd site start popping up and stealing their designs. Imagine creating this beautiful sculpt and selling it for everything it's worth only to have a copycat come and steal your hard work and designs, make a cheaper quality doll and then claim that their product is better...

 

Wow, this is an old thread!

It's good to see that people are still passionate about this subject, though very saddening that there are others who still don't understand how harmful recasting is.

I will admit, I was tempted once by a recast of a sold out limited from Soom, but I confided in a close friend of mine and she thankfully reminded me of all the reasons why I should not give into the temptation! I listened to her, and I'm very happy to say I've neither purchased a recast nor been tempted to ever since. I may never own that Soom limited, but I'll also never own a lot of things. I'm thankful for the dolls I do have, and I wish more people could see it that way.

I've taken the subject of recasting so close to heart that I strive to buy legitimate, original items in every hobby I have, like Anime and Music. I don't buy bootleg anime merch (which can take a lot of research and precautions sometimes) or download music that I haven't paid for (AKA stealing or 'pirating').

On the subject of long term affects.. I think we are seeing them now. Dolls are incredibly difficult to sell secondhand without their extended 'pedigree' (chain of ownership w/ authenticity confirmed from company of manufacture), many hesitate to buy at all, and some have left the hobby completely as a result. I've been around a long while, before recasting was a "thing". There was a level of trust in the community back then (it was never perfect, but definitely better), and it was a huuuuuge deal when a scammer was revealed (mostly for taking people's money and running off, not for recasts).

It seems that when the internet marketplace (in general, not specifically here) shifted from being easy to manipulate (when eBay was a seller's market and people could still sell empty boxes and get away with it) to being a little more controlled (paypal, USPS tracking, eBay buyer protection), the scammers had to get a little more "creative" (put something in the box, get away with theft?), and recasts were born. This is evidenced in several early accounts of recasts being bought unknowingly, and the buyers actually lost the case through ebay/paypal because the item looked 'enough' like the picture to be passable. That sort of thing doesn't fly anymore, which is why they've gotten increasingly accurate, harder to distinguish from real, and ultimately, more and more detrimental to the community trust fabric, as well as damaging to the original companies on multiple levels.

Secondhand buying and selling affects the hobby as a whole, both for the artists and the collector community; If we can't sell our dolls secondhand, we have less free funds to invest in new dolls, and less reason to do so. Who wants to drop $600 on a doll they can never resell, or at least, not unless severely discounted? With the trust atmosphere of the community diminishing, less people are joining the hobby, which shrinks the community as whole and affects all doll makers, even the ones who haven't fallen victim to recasting. The conflict between 'purists' and 'recast-friendly' hobbyists creates a terribly hostile environment, which stifles creativity and hurts diversity (NOT saying that recasts should be accepted, but those people COULD have contributed greatly to the hobby if they had stayed legit, instead we lose them completely) as well as creating a situation where newcomers are left confused and torn between the legit artist-supporting route and the seemingly easier/cheaper recast 'friendliness', without knowing the real truth about it.

..It's just a big ol' mess now, isn't it?

 

I thought we weren't allowed to talk about this?

 

Seems a good idea to me, the mods keeping the discussion in one place so it's easy to keep an eye on.

 

It's really quite simple. At the time, the only way I could get what I wanted (specific anime series) was to get them via torrents or IRC Bots. This was in the period (long past now) between "VHS Fansubs" and "legal streaming simulcasts," when the only way you could watch a series before it was licensed was to seek it out via bittorrent. Now, few series go unlicensed, and there are numerous options available for watching them day of (even hour of) broadcast, though typically payment is involved to get them that quickly. Once that option became available, and I could actually get to the series, there was no reason left to download them.

However, in this case, there is no parallel to recast dolls. The closer parallel is to how people will use buying services to get Volks FCS dolls, or would contract someone to buy from a company not dealing to international countries or with English-speaking customers. I still own the legit item--and I don't mean the downloaded files. Each series that I followed, that was subsequently licensed and released, was purchased unless, for whatever reason, I did not watch the full series and did not enjoy it enough to continue. So it's a poor comparison to recasting. (Meanwhile, I'm in need of more DVD shelves, as I'm really quite filled not only with series I have enjoyed in the days before simulcasts, but those which I also have enjoyed in simulcast.)

And I disagree that ostracization of an individual is not a deterrent. While there may be those who are determined enough that they'll move ahead in spite of the chance that people will shun them, there are others who will, on seeing that a large portion of the online community will in fact reject them, decide that it's not worth trying to hide their dolls or being an outcast and will stick with the legitimate item.

In this type of context, it's allowed.

 

You do make some great points in your argument. I do agree that stealing another person's work is horrible. I think that if someone buys a doll just to recast it is a waste of resin and a beautiful doll. But who is it hurting when you recast a limited doll? The company no longer produces it, so it's not hurting them. Also, if anyone downloads music for free, you have committed the exact same crime as the recasters. Stealing someone's work. "But the celebs have enough money already!" You might say. Is there really a difference from stealing from large corporations than from small businesses? Stealing is stealing, people!!!

Oh, yes. There are many recast online communities. Just a simple Google search will show some.

I just thought of something. It's totally off topic but whateves. What if, in the future, you have to go to a certain place to talk about certain things so the leaders can watch over us better? Kinda like in the book (and I think movie) The Giver.

 

Lillycat was still very hurt by someone stealing a doll she no longer actually sells. She even felt like stopping her work as a doll creator. So even if the doll was limited, it could make the creator stop making new dolls.

As far as stealing music compared to stealing BJDs, you are right to say both are stealing, but the effect is different. When you buy a doll you usually buy directly from the creator, they get the money from the sale, and each sale is important due to the high value. When you buy an MP3, the small amount of money you pay is split between the vendor, the record company, and the artist. Still a crime, but different victim impact.

But, you are right that stealing is stealing. This is why I always pay for my music and games, even when it's much easier to download them. The way I feel, if you like something, you should pay for it. It would be strange to love a band's music but take their music without paying, but I know many many people still do this.

 

People might be less likely to order a doll during a limited order period "because I can just buy a recast for cheaper later."
So yes, even if a quantity limited doll is recast, it still hurts the company. The company might even want to rerelease a limited sculpt but be unwilling to do so because recasts are out there. And people might be less willing to buy from a company because if there is ever the chance they might need to sell the doll, they'll need to jump through hoops to prove it is real because recasts exist.

 

We all are hurt. Can't you see? Making illegal recasts started disagreement, wars and ruin unity of our community. Is that not enough hurt?

They still own the rights to their logo, a name of their doll and a sculpt. They can re-relase whatever doll they want in a different resin color (like Soom does). And if someone doesn't know what 'limited doll' means - it means: limited doll. Unique, precious, hard to buy. When I hear someone say "I don't have money to buy this fancy limited doll that I like, so I just buy a recast. This snobbish company has too much money already" it sounds for me like "I don't have money for this fancy Lamborghini car that I like, so I just pay to someone to steal it from someone rich. This snobbish people have too much money already".
Like it was said before many times, fear that you can buy a fake as original bjd is obviously harmful too.
And yes, stealing is stealing.