The consequences of copied dolls

The college I'm attending, provides us with quailty paper, paints, brushes, inks, clay and bunch of other stuff. We also get money to, so we can focus on passing rather than hunting down a job while we attend.
To be honest I think it is a little bit too much but then again, as my lecture puts it, poor quailty equipment will not help you pass.

 

Pricing art can be a tricky thing. Yes there is the matter of paying for material, workspace, employees' salaries, what the artist needs to make a living on etc. Then there is the time involved as well as the artist's skill. These last two don't have a hard and fast formula to figure out value. Your statement above could really be applied to any work of art. It comes down to how much people are willing to pay these things and the good reputation of the artist and his/her work.

Hobbyists are not forced to pay $1900 dollars for a doll. There is a whole wide range of prices out there--even more than when I first got involved, so I really don't think price is much of an excuse.

 

Honestly, in that case? Rock on for Scotland. *grin* I am sincerely envious! It's not what we experience in the US, and it's not what friends of mine I work with who trained in the arts elsewhere in the world have experienced at all. A good many of us have gone significantly into debt to pay for our educations. I was very fortunate to avoid that personally, but it's similarly common.

That is honestly a -great- attitude and I think it shows a genuine appreciation of the arts. It's sadly... not as common as I wish it was.

 

Totally honest, we even had a fully paid for trip to an art camp just there.
Yeah I have heard about that in america, some of my american friends dropped out because of money issue at there colleges. I'm glad to hear you didn't have to much to pay. I guess that why people try to aim for a schoalarship there, to help the enjoyable side of college.

Comicbookartistboi, I must say I would spend more than $1000 on a doll but then again I have one doll, that I may spend o fortune on but that is because that is my dream doll. Also you have to give them a break they know limited will sell out and if they are behind in there rent, they will need it. There really isn't many places with rent control around anymore and land isn't cheap. Plus the doll companies that use paypal, delight for us without credit cards but they got all the fees to deal with. People on Doa like to add that price to selling there doll if you use paypal. I don't like the idea to pay the fess for them, so I don't think it' much fun for the compaines.

 

I'm posting my opinion to this from the perspective of someone very 'new' to the BJD hobby.
I've only recently opened up to this fascinating hobby, and like anyone, could have made the horrific mistake of buying knock-off dolls because of cheaper price.
To be frank, when I first learned the average price range for BJDs, I was shocked!!

But that was what made me want to learn -why- they are how much they are!
So rather than staying in ignorance and buying the first cheap doll I could find, I have spent my time researching on them almost obsessively, starting with the major companies and then going to the nitty-gritty to find out how they're made, what goes in, etc.

I'm happy to say I have learned a lot, and plan on continuing to do so. I'm still a noob when it comes to BJDs but hopefully that will change soon, as I have purchased my first doll and am waiting on his arrival!

The sad thing is, is that most people generally would not take the time to research the hobby as I have. At least for many Americans, buying is very impulsive and it's a sort of 'Gotta have it now!' mentality. Not everyone is willing to take two weeks or more to just purely research a hobby before delving in.

I'm grateful to joining DoA however, as it seems like everyone is encouraging and helping to get rid of ignorance. Thanks to much time spent in review since I have joined (and even before I was accepted, lol), I feel I have made a good choice for my first doll, and am excited about getting more into the community!

As a final note, one of my personal reasons for getting into BJDs is how social of a hobby it can be. Most of my other hobbies (such as video games) are not truly social. These dolls can be a wonderful way to meet friends with common interests! I feel that it would be a shame for people to buy knock-offs purely because of lower price (as is the general reason for doing so) and miss out on what I feel to be one of the best reasons for getting into the hobby. It seems like part of the fun is showing off the dolls, after all, and how lonely it would be if your doll was banned for being fake?

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject. Thanks again to most of you at DoA so far for your vast knowledge!

 

Has anyone ever seen an 'original' and a copy/knockoff together to be able to see if there's a visible quality difference? I would assume the knockoffs would have corners cut - seams badly sanded, the molding not quite symmetrical, etc. - but having no experience with it, I can't say.

Much as it floored me (especially at first) to have to come up with so much money for a "mere doll", once I understood the process - that these things aren't sitting in stock, on shelves, waiting for customers, they're hand-made to order, one at a time, some of them (at least, my Limhwa & Supia are; I don't know about the Soul Doll) I could well understand WHY I'm forking out $7-800 per doll; and once I got the doll itself & saw the exquisite sculpt & workmanship, I understood even better. I can't think that any organization turning out knockoffs COULD produce the sort of piece the original artist could ... altho of course there are loads of art forgeries out there so good they're better than the originals, some of them, and of course forgers have been copying great pieces of art since probably the time of the Lascaux caverns if not earlier. In fact, one of the most celebrated pieces of classical Greek statuary existing is actually a Roman forgery, so copying is a long & dishonorable tradition in the human race. One has to wonder whether the Roman buyer was told it was the original, or whether they bought it knowing it was just a very good copy. But I digress.

I feel badly for those who can't afford the Real Thing; the temptation to get something that looks like it, but costs far less, must be terrific. Now, both my Limhwa & Supia came with labels sunk into the resin, & one has tiny numbers/letters (I can't make them out, but they're obviously an imprint, as if from an antique chinese-style 'chop') in an obscure part of the inside, as well as coming with certificates of authenticity, etc. Since my dolls are modded, if I ever have to sell them at least I'll have those - altho I suppose those could be easily faked, too. People who are intent on doing something aren't going to be stopped by details like that; in fact, for some of them it seems to be a challenge how far they can go to fool the experts, even if they don't need to.

I don't know what the answer is, except that it will depend more on international pressure being brought to bear on those rogue states that refuse to recognize & honor copyright law, etc. & in turn putting a stop to the rogue companies that operate that way in their jurisdictions. Meanwhile the only thing we as individuals can do is be aware - & make others aware - of who/what they're dealing with, if they buy from certain companies, so they have the option of NOT buying once they know the item is an illegal copy. Which we would hope they would (not buy, that is), altho no one can force them not to.

Is there a list anywhere here on DoA of suspect companies, etc.? Thanks.

 

Yay for free education!

But, it's not really free is it?
Someone has to pay for your tutors salary (which should be higher - guess what I do for a crust), the electricity and various costs of running the space where you learn, your materials...These things don't just materialize out of thin air.
According to this website an international student would need to pay $8,603 in fees alone - and that will be a similiar amount to what your government is funding your school for each student. Your government expects you to pass your course, go and get a job, and start paying them taxes, baby!

 

*expires of pure envy* That really is incredible, though. It's very heartening to hear.

About the pricing, back to a more general comment, I remember being shocked at the price tags until I looked at the clothing and thought about what I was actually seeing. When I stopped and asked myself, "Would I be willing to accept that amount of money for the work that went into that item?" and consistently kept answering, "Absolutely not!" I realized, "Hey, they really aren't trying to gouge me here."

 

But that is a university and all places vary depending on which you go. Plus dispite Scotland being part of great britian we are the only ones that don't have to pay unless we use up all are free years at the diploma levels. For instance, I want to become a teaher I have to pay for my final two years of learning because I had to restart my course as I chosen a path that I felt no longer suited me. So I have four more years ahead of me. Curse my desire to teach and not program. I've always know about the taxes, so may aswell help me get a good job that pays the bill.

 

I don't think I could ever pay $100+ for outfit for my doll, Io think I would just keep working my little finguers away until I make just as lovely outfit. Or until I find a second hand one that it lower in price.
It's not that I don't appericate the work they put in, it's just that I don't have the money to buy an outfit that may only fit one doll that may not wear it alot compad to other outfits I have for them. Then I feel I've wasted an outfit that someone else could have used a lot more than me.

One of these self concious people, I feel like I preventing someone who may want it more than me.

 

The funniest thing about this post is that the "stigma" or what this forum accepts and doesn't accept is considered a consequence for companies that copy dolls - yet concerning yourself with the "stigma" or the forum accepting and/or not accepting is actually a consequence of being more concerned about what other people think about you than you think of yourself.

The consequence of theft is a legal issue - the consequence of piracy is a legal issue.

I don't give a ounce of care to whether or not I have a doll that den of angels approves of or anybody else for that matter, if I did then I would never be happy. As is, Obitsu is not accepted on Den of angels and there's a "stigma" about them - yet I love my 55cm boy obitsu and so has everyone who has seen him in person at meets. I love dollzone, but to some people there is a "stigma" about them.

I buy my dolls because I want my dolls. I buy straight from the manufacturer or from a reputable dealer because I want to make sure I get what I'm ordering, but if by chance I saw a doll on ebay that I was unfamilar with or has been discontinued (like a liebchan) I haven't memorized every little feature of every single doll to be able to make sure it's authentic, not to mention, we've modded just about every single doll we have (we have over 25 dolls) because we want to make them as much "ours" as possible - not to mention face ups and everything else make such a difference that I'm not even going to waste my time nitpicking it to death, and I'm sure as hell not going to let someone else make me feel bad about a doll I want and love.

So let the lawmakers handle the consequences of legal issues and just live your life - not others.

 

I've had quotes given to me about casting costs of dolls....I know how much money it takes to not only cast a doll, but to sculpt it. I find it a tad ridiciulous, when they are charging so much for a single doll, that it could pay for all of their costs in two sales....the average 70cm doll costs about 4000 to 5000 dollars to sculpt, and then an average of 200.00 per doll to cast. I'm sorry, when companies get so greedy, that they start charging that much, they are BEGGING rip-off artists to start copying their stuff, for people to have access to cheaper versions.... I'm not justifying it, it is STILL wrong, but how right is it for a company to ROB people just because they feel that they can? I've completely STOPPED buying anything volks, simply because of the overpricing.

When you use the analogy of art pieces, that cannot even be compared to this....An artist is making a one of a kind piece that is NOT going to be duplicated and sold for that same price over and over and over again. NOrmally when that piece is sold, that is that piece, and it's the only one....For a doll company to be justified in getting that high for dolls, they'd need to sculpt a doll, cast it, make the outfit for it, paint it, and then destroy the mold and never make another doll of that particiular one...THEN yah, they'd be justified in charging 6000 dollars for a doll. But they aren't doing this. Once the doll is sculpted, they need to make that money back. So, they charge a price that is going to bring back the money they spent making it, and then some profit.
But trying to bring back 3500 times what you paid is absolutely insane, and greedy.

I completely understand one off dolls going that high...but c'mon...is anyone REALLY going to try to convince me that the companies are justified in charging almost 2000 dollars on a doll, and then making 20 copies of it and getting that same price for each one??? They are creating the problem, by over pricing, and then getting upset when someone comes along and rips them off by creating casts of their stuff...yah, it's wrong, but it's just as wrong to try to rob people of their hard earned money for stuff that REALLY is not worth that. And most dolls are not worth what they are priced at. I'm sorry. I have very little sympathy for companies that do this...the sad things, most companies are charging more and more and more and more....I'm not going to defend the copiers, but i'm also not going to 'feel badly' for companies that do not care that they are ripping people off either. Sorry. After labor for your employees, and then casting costs per doll, you have a justifiable charge of about 500 - 800 dollars per doll.....depending on the number you are going to produce...the smaller the number the higher the price...however, when you just start jamming the price up just because people are buying it, then you are getting greedy, and greed is greed, wether it's a copier jumping on the bandwagon to copy a popular piece, or a company thinking no one will ever argue their prices.... Greed is an ugly thing. Personally, i won't support overcharging companies, and although i hate copiers, because they are completely unoriginal, I really am not going to defend the companies either, because so many of them have gotten out of control with the upping of prices.

I felt the same way when the Hurricanes ripped through florida, and gas prices shot up. Everyone started running out of gas, so there were gas stations that were caught trying to sell gasoline for 8 dollars a gallon, just because people needed it. They were arrested, and charged with price gouging. as i said, greed is greed, and it's disgusting.

and as far as people not being 'forced' to pay that much, that depends on your view...if they ever want THAT doll? YES, they will have to pay that charge, and they will be forced to, if they ever intend on having that doll of their dreams....

to sum it all up, i'm just saying that wrong is wrong...from the copiers, who steal, and to the companies that are greedy and over charging. I'm really quite disgusted by both. At what point do you start looking at the company and saying "Alright already, Enough is ENOUGH....."

 

I agree with you. Charging a little less for the dolls doesn't even mean the companies have to sell them at cost price. A little mark-up is to be expected, after all, they have employees to pay and all sorts of company charges and bills, not 100% of what you pay is going towards making more dolls, it goes towards upkeep of the equipment, looking after the staff etc... etc... BUT knock-off merchants see pound signs when companies jack up their prices. If Louis Vuitton sold his luggage for the same price as most quality luggage, there would be less impulse to bootleg his designs, even if they were limited or seasonal designs, because they would be affordable to begin with.

The doll companies don't deserve to have their work ripped off, just like any artist doesn't deserve to have their intellectual property stolen, but it is understandable that it happens seeing as how expensive dolls can get. Market forces will drive prices down and the bootleggers away if people resist buying the overpriced dolls and the copied ones. If a company sold only 50 dolls of a 200 limited run, they'd soon see the prices that people are prepared to pay and put up with and if people resist the temptation to buy copies, the bootleggers won't waste their time on it and will move on to the next craze.

 

ooops double post!!

 

it most definately IS about justifying the cost of dolls, when the overpricing results in people trying to copy their work, just to target people who can't afford the original....

and value is percieved by market when the doll has been out for a while, and the price steadily rises...NOT when a company releases a brand new doll, that's never been seen by the industry yet, and automatically charges 2000.00.

and the idea of "Don't like the price? Don't buy the doll" is EXACTLY what turns buyers to the cheaper knock offs...

why is it that Volks and Luts are the dolls being copied? Because they are the ones who keep rising prices, and making their dolls decidedly harder and harder to get. wether it be through the fact of raising your prices, or never restocking your dolls that aren't even classified as limited...I love Luts...and while they have at least remained remotely decent in pricing, (even if some are getting a bit steep) they don't keep up very well on restocking dolls that are not classified as limited. (which automatically jacks up the prices people are having to pay to get them) And with Volks, well, the prices alone are getting crazy.

There is a reason you don't see people copying Elfdoll that often, or ORientdoll, or Bobobie, and it's because the dolls prices are NOT over inflated, and people can relatively get their dolls easily.

 

To you it's not worth that. It's a grey area--face it, it is. There is no hard and fast rule, just don't spend more than you're comfortable with. And as I said, there's more to deciding price than just covering the costs. Prices have gone up, but the value of the dollar has also gone down which contributes to the price hikes. According to you, if someone is successful and is able to charge more, then they are greedy and intentionally gouging someone. I don't agree. If company X makes a good product and has a good reputation, and they can charge more, then they should be able to do that--shouldn't they get the chance to be successful and benefit from that? I like to see artists actually get paid decently. If the market won't bear it, then company X will find out pretty darn fast.

Dolls are reproduced, but they still fall more into the realm of art, and while they are reproduced it isn't the mass production of many other types of items. There's a lot of hands on work that goes into them. They are also luxury items. It's one thing to get gouged on things like healthcare, food, housing, and fuel. Not wanting to pay past a certain amount on a doll is not in the same realm.

But most of all, this is no reason to buy a knock off. I can understand, perhaps, the temptation some people must feel. But we can't all afford everything we want, and this is a part of life. There is no getting around that unless you're one of the tiny percentage that is actually wealthy. Most of us work hard for the money we get, and it only goes so far. There are dolls I really like that I probably will never own, because their prices are more than I can shell out for a doll. That's ok, that's to be expected in any hobby like this, and people have choices: A. Save save save B. If it's the head sculpt that you love, try making a hybrid (that will even out the cost) C. Look around for a legit doll that has some stylistic similaries (but not a copy!) to the more expensive doll D. Admire the more expensive guys, but buy within your means. This is an expensive hobby, but it doesn't have to break the bank--that's one of the reasons accusing the companies of price gouging and/or buying knockoffs (which I know you were not suggesting) annoys me. No one is forced to buy something they feel is too expensive. ABJDs are wonderful, but they aren't necessary to human existance.

 

Wow, I am hearing stultifying things here. Blaming the doll companies' prices for the activities of bootleggers is exactly the same thing as, "Well, it's her own fault-- if she hadn't been wearing that miniskirt, she wouldn't've gotten herself raped."

 

I'm not saying a company can't charge "a little more"....i'm saying that it's insane that companies are NOT just 'charging a little more". When volks released their four sisters heads, the dolls were 600 each. look at the prices that their newer dolls have escalated to, and then tell me that they are "just charging a little more". I'm sorry. That's not true. They ARE ripping people off....and because few can afford to pay for those insanely expensive dolls, they turn to the recast theives, who can provide them with a some-what realized dream of owning an otherwise unobtainable doll.

 

trying to compare ANYTHING doll related to a woman being raped is a tad ridiculous.

I'm simply saying that when it comes to things that companies have deliberately made unobtainable by the masses, they will turn to ways of getting it, wether right or wrong. so they are partly to blame for their decisions to make something insanely expensive, or so unobtainable, that few can even FIND one, let alone pay for it.