The consequences of copied dolls

Oh gosh CBAB, you are so right!! The Four Sisters used to be 600.00? Well now they're 603.00! so yeah. That's pretty bad.

/end sarcasm

Raven

 

Copied Dolls.....Complete Recasts........

One word.......Authenticity........that's what it all comes back to!......
Original box, kips and certificate of Authenticity....engraved sigs on body parts etc.......Ask to see all of these Before you purchase.......

Modded dolls........Before and after photos of your work.......All of these things "should" help stamp out copied dolls for sale and resale......

So ask lots of questions before you purchase from shops, eBay and marketplace.....get photos .........make sure it's Authentic.........stay away from anything you think is dodgy.......

I'll go along with jennyNemesis....use your sixth sense........

xen

 

see, that would have been funny if you had actually READ what i was saying...clearly you didn't....

The four sisters heads were about 600 dollars a piece....look at what they are charging for the newer dolls now....Jeezus...

 

Inbetween releasing the Four Sisters head (their first foray bjd land) and now, they have continued to hone their doll making skills and gained a repuation for quality and good customer service. Why wouldn't you expect prices to go up over time as a company becomes more well known (in a good way)? This is not at all unusual. Plus, exchange rates change over time (it has been around 10 years, you know), and perhaps even manufacturing costs and materials (I don't know if they have or if they haven't, but it's certainly possible). Companies also redesign, try more complicated jointing and body types, tweak resin formulas and all manner of things. Expect to pay more for these improvements.

And, actually the SD10 Foursisters are still around $600 now while the larger dolls and LEs go up in cost accordingly. Volks is one of the more expensive companies, however, things have been working well for them, so it doesn't seem like everyone feels ripped off. The same things that affect ABJD prices also affect other collectables as well as fine art, crafts and any other number of things (for instance, I was looking at simple system flutes for Irish music the other day--I'm thinking about upgrading--and noticed that prices seem to have gone up over the past few years). I'm not sure why any of this is so shocking to you.

 

I understand where you are coming from....but i simply do not feel they are justified in making newer dolls a bit larger, and then tacking on a 1000 dollar difference. ::shrugs:: sorry....it's not going to convince me...anyways, this is about the recasts...i simply say "Stop overcharging for your dolls, make them just a tad more obtainable, and you won't have your customers straggling to get the rip-off dolls.". And it's not shocking to me at all...in fact, noting how people are with money, i'd say it's not the least bit shocking. Company A makes dolls....company A notices that people buy dolls, and so the next line gets more and more and more expensive, till they cost is ridiculously high. You can disagree with me if u like, hey, that's ur opinion. And don't try to convince me that making a doll 9 inches taller makes it triple in cost. knocking it up from 600 to 1000? yeah, that's feasable. But not 1500 to 2000.

 

No, it probably won't convince you. But not all the dolls have $1000 tacked on. One of the things that also makes Volks more expensive is that they release a lot of LEs. Their selection of regular run minis and SD10s are good, but there are fewer SD13s available in non-LE form, and SD16s and 17s are only available as LEs. However, it seems that people in Japan (who are their primary market) like LEs *shrug*. One could argue that selling them as LEs also creates more room for knockoffs. However, if it becomes a battle to always undercut the knockoffs, what will many companies be left with? Because the knock offs aren't going to be easy to undercut for the Korean and Japanese companies who have higher overhead do to their location, and less scrupulous knock off companies can take quality cuts that no legit company anywhere is going to be willing to do.

 

I'm sorry, but if a company can make more based on higher quality and based on a good reputation, what is wrong with that? How is that over-inflation? Yes, $2000 is steep. So is more than $50 on a face-up, but people will pay for that. In customizations, I will be completely honest, but maybe 5 face-ups at $20 will cover the cost of materials. Charging higher than that (as many do) is based on skill, quality, reputation. Companies not only have to pay for cost of materials and the bills and expenses of the company - they need to make a profit. That's the basis of business, and what powers an economy. Yes, these are artist-made dolls; it's sculpture and an art-form. But it is still a business, and I personally find it nice that a good company, which deserves its reputation, and consistently produces beautiful dolls - is rewarded for that.

All prices are determined by market value. As terrible as it sounds, so what about the actual cost? Prices are completely determined by what people are willing to pay. If nobody would pay those prices, then they would never reach that point. There is such a vast array of dolls - most between $200-$800. Yet Volks is still doing quite well, despite such competition, and with their "gouging" prices. I think mostly it's simply because they (and Luts) are so incredibly popular that they are copied.

 

Yes it was mean of me, but I couldn't help it! You were comparing apples and oranges. Basic dolls with fullsets, yes?? Clothes usually double a doll's price.

Raven

 

Sorry, but it's not. Victim-blaming is victim-blaming, no matter how you dress it up. You're blaming the companies for the actions of bootleggers.

 

I want to know where all of these naked Volks dolls that retail for $2000 are because I've never seen one. Perhaps one should actually do some research before accusing them of price gouging and robbing us blind.

Blaming the companies for bootlegging honestly boggles my mind. The only people to blame for bootlegging are the greedy bootleggers looking to make a quick buck off of someone else's hard work and the just as greedy people who keep them in business.

 

This is a terrible comparison. I feel sorry for a hurricane victim who has to pay inflated gas prices because of a shortage. I have no pity for someone who cannot afford their 'dream doll'. It is a luxery item, and you won't be inconvenienced if you can't have it.

Doll sculpters are artists. I don't think that an artist painting portraits on a city street for $50 deserves to have their work copied any less than a famous painter who sells their pictures for thousands of dollars in a gallery.

 

I find myself sitting and squinting at the screen as I read a lot of this. What?

Where are these dolls that are 2k direct from the manufacturer that you're talking about? The most expensive doll I can think of as it comes from the company is the SD17 from Volks... or possibly a fullset Art Delf from Luts. Even then, though, those seem to max out at $1,600. With eyes, wig, clothes, faceup, shoes, etc.

Since when is copying the fault of the person being copied? "Oh, Johnny studied really hard for his test. That means he wants me to copy from his paper!" What...?

You really want something, you save longer. And y'know, you just need to let go of some things. There are dolls that I will never own because they are simply too expensive. But life will somehow manage to go on. People think they "deserve" to have the same things as everyone else? Then save up for them, just like everyone else did. Cripes. (Generic "you" in this paragraph)

 

well, i did laugh LOL but anyways, i STILL don't think it should raise the price that much...

I just think that when you release dolls upwards of 1300 dollars, u are going to have people knocking them off to offer them cheaper. It's unfortunate, but true.

 

I'm not BLAMING anyone...i'm simply stating that when you release uber expensive dolls, thinking you are going to load in the cash, don't be surprised when companies start stealing your ideas....

 

you completely missed the point.....this was not a case of 'inflated gas prices', this was someone who was taking advantage of others. just because they though "well, if people will pay it, why not??" Selfish people do not care about what people pay, or for what. Wether it be much needed gas, wether it be a doll, or wether it be clothing in the high-fashion industry, selfish people will over inflate EVERYTHING, just to take a buck from the pocket of someone else...it's how selfish people work by nature...THAT was the point. Everytime something happens and something becomes harder to get, people want to make a quick buck for themselves. Wether it be something horrible like a hurricane, or wether it be something that simply adds a quick dishonest buck for themselves, such as doll art.

now i'm not saying that people trying to make an honest living making dolls falls into this category. I'm specifically talking about companies who KNOW that their cost of making a doll is not that high...and the creeps who rip off casts from companies, those are the people i'm talking about.

and for a gagillionth time, i will reiterate, that NO ONE 'deserves' to have their art copied.....i'm just saying, if you plan to release insanely expensive dolls, do not be surprised when people recast your art, to try to make a dishonest buck....it still does not mean it's the fault of the artist....

But i'm still not going to feel pity for a company, when they are (in my opinion) doing something just as bad by trying to cover costs by releasing dolls that, once two or three are sold, cover their ENTIRE cost....leaving the rest of the line of 20 or 30 to be profit....

A similar situation is the world of comic book sculptures....I have statues of wonder woman, and X-men...the average cost of a statue was originally 150. now, some here have said that 'as time moves on, things get expensive. Yes, this is true...that's why 10 years ago, these statues were priced at about 150....now, they are going for about 220. yah, they are more expensive...but if what has been happening in the doll world were to happen with these statues, it would be like that same type of 150.00 statue now being priced at 900 dollars. It's just not feasable. It's greed pure and simple, and while i'm not inclined to support them for this very reason, (some doll companies) i'm also not saying it's ok to take their products and cast them for your own sales....its' wrong, and they should be fined and or punished by law.

 

Because that's what the market will bear for some one-offs and artist dolls. If there wasn't a market willing to pay that $2,000 on an artist doll, then the product wouldn't exist. Personally, I've only seen a few dolls hit that price range straight from the manufacturer, and they are usually one-of-a-kind elaborate fullsets. The Dolkot limiteds are the only ones that come to mind off the top of my head. And there are any number of collectors willing to pay that price. It's a market value for the item, not necessarily dependent on cost of materials. People charge what the market will bear. That's how the free market economy works.

However, in this hobby there is a pretty wide range of legitimate choices in prices ranging from about $100 up to the $2000 range and then some. If someone feels a product is overpriced, then they can choose not to buy that product. But that still doesn't justify buying or making copies when there are quite a few legitimate, original inexpensive options. No doll collector is forced to go buy a bootleg because they can't afford a real Volks or CP doll. They're luxury items. If they really, really want that sculpt, why not a hybrid? I have two hybrids with Fdoll bodies (one has a CP head and hands, the other a DIM head and CP hands) as less expensive options, and they cost about the same as most bootlegged dolls. But all the parts came from original, legitimate sources. "They're too expensive" is never an excuse for copying. Period.

Ethics aside (for the sake of those who aren't concerned with a stigma or the moral implications), it's hurting the industry. On the off-chance that knockoffs were to become so prevalent that the legit companies were no longer making much profit, those companies may shut down. Then there wouldn't be new legit dolls OR new copies. Of course, that's a bit of an extreme, worst-case scenario. A more realistic consequence would be that the companies might make less profit and either jack up their prices more to compensate, or stop releasing as many new sculpts/discontinue some sculpts to cut down on expenses. Either way, the bootleg market does have an effect on the economy of the hobby in general. It's not just an issue of ethics or stigma.

 

Why would this discourage modding? Why should people be afraid of witch hunts? I don't need some community to love my dolls. I love them because of who and what they are, not because posting pictures and showing off to strangers gives me some feeling of acceptance.

...okay, that's exactly the case but most of us grow out of it. xD All I'm saying is that it SHOULDN'T discourage people from modding or anything. If someone wants to think your store-bought dolly was a copy, let them. You can't force someone to see the truth, you can only guide them, and if they refuse to accept the truth, well then, be reasonable about it. Apathy is a marvelous weapon.

 

Now THIS is something that scared the hell out of me...
If bootlegs can be around unnoticed, what if one day I end up buying one, thinking I'm getting a leggit doll from the marketplace?

This is going to give me nightmares for more than one night, that's for sure!

 

Saying it's the companies own fault for getting ripped off is absolutely ridiculous logic. I don't even know were to start, or even if I can dignify it with any sort of retort.

These dolls are pieces of art. Art, depending on how sought after it is, can be extremely pricey, regardless of how much it originally cost to make. That's not even touching on the fact that a $1k - 1.5k price tag is pretty standard in the hobby for a limited doll with eyes/wig/clothes/shoes. Why single out Volks?

(Your guesstimate of 2k is wrong by the way, unless all you have seen is scalper prices on eBay)

Are you even thinking about what it would do to the value of all of our current dolls if all of the doll companies out there magically decided to start selling their dolls at half the price? The fact of the matter is, with all the work put into these dolls, they are worth their price tag. If you don't agree with or understand that, then what are you even doing here?

To me this thread is seriously starting to get very WTF.