The consequences of copied dolls

i completely agree about one offs...those should raise in price to insane levels...it's not surprising....

 

If the cost of the materials was the only thing to be taken into account, I would agree. But these aren't hobbyists in their basements.

There is also marketing (server, webmaster, English-speaking staff, advertising in magazines and on other websites), labor for production (hourly wage, in addition to any sort of benefits that you want to offer employees), research and development (sculpting, creating your signature resin formula), packaging (those boxes don't make themselves!), facilities (you need to make these somewhere!), high-end equipment (vaccuum casting and pressurized systems, all of which need maintenance), insurances (worker's comp, property insurance on your facility), lawyer/advisor fees (for your patents or copyright filings, and if you want to have someone on retainer)... and all of your staff need a LIVING wage because this is their full time job. Add all that up and it isn't something that 2-3 dolls is going to cover with the rest being pure profit.

Bootleggers, by contrast, don't have most of those expenses. Which is why it is so very profitable for bootleggers, even if they do sell their product cheaper.

 

I was so proud of myself, years ago, that I had at least four full anime series that I had bought with my own money. Only recently did I find out they were bootlegs. I feel bad, because I was unknowingly supporting piracy financially, (I'll support piracy if it's free 8D ) but then again, it's not like I paid ninety bucks for each series like I did for my two legit ones. ($90 was a LOT back then) So I don't feel quite as bad anymore. We all have greed, I guess.

If I paid full price for a copy, boy, I'd be pretty peeved, though. I'd want to get my money back and buy a real one, but how could I sell it for full price knowingly to someone else? I guess it all comes down to morality, e.g. "the right thing to do".

@Kim: Suigintou can go for $2000. I've seen some go for that naked, too. Those might be scalper prices though. >.>

 

QFE! I hadn't thought of those expenses myself (admittedly I don't know much about business), but those are very likely expenditures that would have to be factored into the cost of a doll to make a profit.

 

i know what you mean......however, i've taken this into consideration. I still do not see where a company gets off charging uber inflated prices...and they are just going up. I know alot about marketing...about the cost of things in the toy industry (yes, these are TOYS, even if fantastically artistic ones) If you sit down and add up ONE company's doll that is being sold for 1200 a piece, and they are not even limited, you are going to see what i mean...that's one doll...and not very many companies are just selling that one doll....

again, for those who are NOT READING the threads, i will say, (let me put it in red, so EVERYONE can see it.... I'm not saying that it's the fault of the artist that their dolls are copied....in fact, it's anything but....and the people who do this are disgusting, and have absolutely NO integrity
i'm saying that if you plan on releasing dolls that are so expensive few can afford them, then do not be surprised when you have some jerk copying the mold...

 

Those are secondhand market prices, Suigintou was priced the same as all other Volks limiteds of her size when she was released.

 

Yes, but the market for comic book sculptures isn't necessarily the same as ABJDs. Not everything will increase at exactly the same rate. People are probably not willing to pay as much for figures as they are for a doll--especially if that doll comes with an elaborate outfit, faceup, wig, shoes etc. which is the way the most expensive LEs come (and the only ABJDs that hit the prices you describe).

Here's something to think about...you say that companies who increase their prices are greedy. But is it not also greedy to demand that everything you want be in your price range? Is it not at least a little greedy to knowingly buy a knock off because you (general you) can't bear to just let it go and buy within your means?

Also, there are other dolls out there that command higher prices than bjds do. You said earlier that you couldn't compare ABJDs to works of art, because ABJDs duplicated. However, if you look at some of the BJD type artist dolls that are truly one of a kind out there you'd be seeing prices that are easily $10,000+ so perhaps it's all relative? Maybe when you compare ABJDs to other types of dolls in general, the prices are not so terribly out there considering what you're getting.

 

Please don't. Really. It's not a joke to those of us who really do lose income to this on a daily basis. Just because the pirate isn't making a profit doesn't mean the person they stole from is losing any less, so really... just please don't.

 

It actually happened to me too, I bought some short series on eBay waaaaay back, and of course they were advertised as original on a sales price, and what I got was obviously not.

The sellers were gone from eBay soon, I never got a refund and I ended up selling them for way less than what I paid when I needed money (I wasn't going to just throw them away, I needed to get some of my money back). Of course I did mention they were not original, so whoever bought those was completely aware of that, they knew what they were getting, which wasn't my case ;_;

But bootleg DVDs somehow don't sound nearly as half as scary as a bootleg BJD...

 

Depending on what medium were talking about, the sharing of art "illegally" is actually one of most notable ways of increasing exposure, and that raises the chances significantly of gathering more potential sells of whatever it may be that you're working on.

More on topic, I wouldn't be so worried about copies in general per-se. What is far more frightening (at least what I would consider to be more so) are copies that far surpass the qualities of the originals. Believe me, it happens, and it happens more often than most honestly realize.

 

:::head on keyboard::: That is NOT what i said.....i said that companies that increase their prices to ridiculous amounts are greedy. And that's my Opinion.... I simply am one of the people that feel that some BJD companies are really asking TOO much for their dolls. And in my opinion, it's not justified. I'm sorry if people are upset because i feel this way, but i'm not the only one who feels this way. many BJD collectors feel that some companies take advantage. I know that because i feel volks is one of them, i'm going to get jumped on by those who love volks so much, but there are MANY who will not buy from volks for that very reason.

 

Ok, this is peeving me a bit, but I have yet to see a basic (naked), regular release doll straight from a company that costs nearly or over $2000, as comicbookartistboi keeps implying in nearly every post.

Please give examples, or links, etc.?

 

What one doll?

Where are you finding a non-limited, standard edition, non-fullset doll being released for $1200? Or the $1900 you were stating earlier?
Most dolls I'm seeing are around the $200-$800 range.
I just bought a brand new Volks standard SD13 Syo for approx $800--the high end of the range I mention, yes...but he's also the heaviest doll I own, meaning a good deal more resin went into his makeup than my lower-priced dolls.
(ETA: apparently kornishealthy and I are thinking alike XD)

Also...are you aware that there's a button at the bottom of every post right to the right of the 'quote' button that allows you to 'multi quote', putting replies to a bunch of people in one post.



On the copying issue: I think, ultimately, that copies will mainly be purchased by people who think of dolls as a status item that they can't afford. They will buy the copies and flaunt them for a bit as "Oh, look, see, I have one of those expensive dolls too," and then they will lose interest and move on to the next trend...which is the point at which we will have something of a problem--they will be trying to sell off their collection to make money for that next hobby, and in order to make the most money, they will have to portray their dolls as legitimate items. Even if they don't flat out lie, and simply call the doll a '60cm BJD' in their sale, or whatever, there's a chance people would buy their dolls thinking they are getting the real thing.

 

I wish i could stay and continue this, but it's getting really old to have to repeat myself because of people who are not reading posts...have fun with ur debate...

 

Ooookay...well the least you could have done is pointed us at these $1200-$1900 standard edition direct from the company dolls you keep talking about first, but whatever, good night.
=/

 

Gosh, this thread had turned into the justification of the pricing of ABJDs instead of staying "The Consequences of Copied Dolls."

Anyway, trying to return to the original topic...

This sort of reasoning is the thing that encourages bootleggers to continue bootlegging:

This mentality also encourages support for counterfeit dolls (as well as support for other counterfeit products).

I have yet to see that $1200.00 unlimited doll you talk about, CBAB, and I usually see that price on the secondary market.

Now I will compare your reasoning to something that is totally unrelated to BJDs but since your kind of mentality exists, this problem exists:

Counterfeit cancer treatment drugs.

Or any other counterfeit drugs for that matter.

Even if you say that your statement only applies to ABJD manufacturers, when some bootlegger reads it they will think "Well, hehe, since this guy thinks this way, I wonder how many more people think like this when it comes to non-doll products?"

And please, I am interested in that "Greedy Doll Company" you keep bringing up in your posts. What is their name and where are they located?

 

Ya know Pam, when I first read that #1 entry, i was thinking, "Consequences" as in real life consquences. Not fake dolls or barring from a forum or even victimizing some unsuspecting dupe when said fake owner sells theirs as the "real deal".

What I thought of was the real consequences of such fakery. The kind most folks don't take into consideration.

Some faker makes a copy and sells it. Fine. He's made his money. The buyer now has a fake that will not be supported in whatever industry it is. Fine; the market is always buyer beware. But what of that market? The original designer is out $$ for their item. That $$ would have gone into his company for product developement, payroll, insurance, etc. How does that affect the real world?

It affects it when pirates steal a product and sell their knock offs and the original is seeing a downturn in his own sales. Suddenly he has smaller sales to use for developement. Smaller sales mean a downturn in employment and he lets go staff who now must find other work. Good luck to them! Maybe they'll find it, maybe not! Soon, if this happens long enough he himself will close up shop. Can't work if no $$ is coming in.

So does it really matter though? I mean, who cares if someone is not working and his family is destitute because of the actions of a few theives. Who cares if some foreign person can't make ends meet? What does that mean to me? or anyone?

Morals isn't really the issue in a case like this. Frankly "morals" is a religious issue. One man's religion is another man's pap. However ethics is very much in play. Ethics in dealing with other people or businesses is how the world gets along. Morals will get you way; ethics gets you economic stimulus.

People may think that this is no big deal, supporting the Black Market (and that's what it is) but to see if it's right or wrong, put yourself in that situation. Would you want to be unemployed because some "innocent", "well meaning" or "not caring" individual robbed you of your hard work? Would you want to see your family or neighbors suffer because someone else "over there" didn't care that buying a stolen item would hurt someone because it was "cheaper"?

I'm going to hush now and toss this onto the floor.

 

comicbookartistboi mentioned Volks, but I'm not sure which dolls he's talking about... the Volks dolls I've seen that get into the price range he's discussing are either fullsets, limiteds/one-offs, or secondhand market prices. I'm not a Volks aficionado though, so I'd be interested to know if they do have standard dolls that fall into that price range. I'm really not trying to be antagonistic, and I'd like to keep things civilized. I'm not trying to point fingers, as I'm genuinely curious. I just like to hear sources for numbers and facts in a debate. Comes from that high school debate and forensics, I suppose. ^_~

In the end, I think the impact of copy/bootleg/counterfeit dolls depends on the community. At the moment, they do exist but aren't prevalent because of the support that exists for legit companies within the hobby. A counterfeit may pop up now and again, but I'm going to be optimistic and hope that the general standards of the community keep the copies restricted to a fringe element rather than a pervasive threat.

However, I think the community should be fair and even-tempered when it comes to suspicions of bootlegs, because of the modding issue that was brought up earlier in the thread. I think if the community stays on top of things and looks out for each other without giving in to a "witch-hunt" mentality, the impact on the industry can be greatly minimized. DoA is by no means the only BJD community online, but from what I've seen of other communities the same sentiments are expressed regarding copy/bootleg dolls. With International copyright laws that are so tricky, looking out for our own and educating new collectors who may not know better can really help.

Unfortunately, the kind of people who are going to knowingly buy knock-offs probably won't be persuaded to buy the real thing, as they already know full well what they are doing. Even if it's morally wrong, illegal, or harmful to the industry, supporters of bootleg companies already have justified it to themselves. Any protestations will probably fall on deaf ears and possibly be seen as persecution, sadly. I kind of feel like this discussion is going in circles and getting a little too personal/heated, so I think this is the last I will say on the matter. It's definitely been an eye-opener and an interesting discussion, though.

 

I didn't miss the point. I don't think that a doll company charging high prices for their product is taking advantage of anyone, because the doll is a luxery item. Gas is something people need to get to work, but life will go on normally if you cannot afford a doll. If the doll is too expensive for you then either save longer or buy a cheaper one. There are plenty of companies out there that sell at "reasonable" prices.

 

There isn't a doll for that price, otherwise links would have been given. :