The consequences of copied dolls

I know what you said. My wording did not include "ridiculous amounts", because I do not feel that the prices are ridiculous. Very simple. I know you're not the only one who feels this way--there are other threads asking why things cost as much as they do and people voicing frustration over costs. It's ineveitable in an expensive hobby. However, there are a heck of a lot of people who don't seem to have the issue with it that you do. The proof is in the success some of these companies have had. Why? Because their customers believe that their products are worth it.

I know you are expressing your opinion, but you're using your irritation over prices to blame the company for the actions of bootleggers who are no better than thieves. Naturally you're going to get flak for that. I like Volks no better or worse than I like a lot of companies-- and I don't cut them slack just for who they are. However, I'm not going to treat them unfairly just because I can't afford some of their dolls.

Back to the orginal topic...

I don't think there is a way to completely stop it. There will always be people who want to make a quick buck and don't have a lot of scruples. It's more of a matter of minimizing the damage by being aware of what's out there, making good buying choices, and encouraging others to do the same.

 

Last night I was thinking about a program I watched a few months ago about people selling boot legged clothing items, etc at market stalls. It discouraged the public from buying them, saying that most of the time their money is going to fund organised crime.

I have no doubt that the was probably scare mongering a little bit, but it makes a valid point. You don't really know where your money is going if you buy a knock off doll.

I'm not trying to say there's a bunch of fugitives sitting around with lego encased silicone molds and doll parts strewn everywhere, but the money a person uses to buy a knock off doll could go to fund other illegal operations, even if it's just more money for materials to make more knock off dolls. So, the more you buy, the worse it gets. I'd say that would be a RL consequence (trying to get away from the prices comments, lol), and one that would hopefully discourage a lot of people from going for them.

 

People were reading your posts, I'm not sure why you were repeating yourself because no one was asking you to or showing they didn't understand what you were saying - people asked for facts to back up your wild claims and rather than do that, you just repeated what you had already said.

Leaving the conversation and using everyone else not understanding you as the excuse rather than actually responding to the questions (and backing up your claims) seems a dishonest way to debate, but whatever.

 

to me this is one of the real issues of the consequences

Not having ever seen a copy in person either, I'm not really all that sure how obvious it would be. I do however have many (legit) dolls made in china and their resin/finishing is often just as nice as more expensive dolls, includuing a lovely body from a company once accused of "copying" (and later found to be not). So if the bootlegs are made similarly in chinese "factories" there's no reason at all to believe they would instantly recognizable as inferior. And.... there are more than enough examples of poor finishing in genuine dolls.

So... I dount that I,. or most of us, could even recognize the fake. In photos or maybe even in person.

So to me the consequences are distrust in the secondary marketplace (here, ebay, other forums and doll lists, etc) which could have an effect on prices of genuine dolls. If all dolls re-sold are perceived to be suspicious, then prices on the legit versions will drop.

I recently decided against buying a body on ebay that the seller did not know the brand but claimed she had originally paid considerable $$$ for. To me there was no way of knowing whether it was a genuine volks body (worth $400+) or whether is was LDdolls knock-off version (worth $200). Besides not being able to assess the value, I also didn't want to risk buying a fake. So either someone got a great deal on a geniune body and the sellr lost $$$, or the buyer got ripped off and paid too much for a fake

 

This made me mad, how can people shun Obitsu, it's Japanese compared to half of their dolls. *hugs her girl* Plus there is nothing wrong with dollzone, at the meets I attend everyone leans towards these two set of dolls. Who cares one isn't made of resin and the other is some what cheaper, they get more love because they are good dolls.

 

You're getting waaaaaaaaay off-topic. If you have further sentiments/questions/concerns regarding why Obitsu 60cm vinyl ball-joints are OT at DoA, I suggest you talk to the Moderators or read the FAQ section.

Edit to correct my statement:

Obitsu 60cm IS accepted in DoA and is an on-topic doll

Link to Criteria for Dolls "On-Topic" for DoA: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showpost.php?p=539612&postcount=1

 

The law differs in each country. Most of the law in the USA, which I presume is still eBay's biggest market, until quite recently has actually rewarded eBay for staying OUT of the transaction as much as possible, including not policing bootlegs. Simply put, eBay doesn't want to be in the business of deciding if something is a bootleg or not and puts pretty big reporting burdens on the rights owner. This could change if Tiffany wins big in its suit, but as of May 9 I think they were still waiting for the judge to hand down a decision in that one.

Edited to add, and if eBay does do any policing you can bet it's going to be with the big deep pocket companies - Tiffany, Gucci, Disney - they aren't going to knock themselves out over some relatively small doll company that's not even based on the USA. Just my opinion.

 

I was reading the policy on e-bay about selling goods, it is agaisnt policy to sell anything that is a bootlegged or fraud. So my question is: if many of you know about these compaines on e-bay why don't you all report it, espically if you easily tell that they are fakes? Surely they can't inore the numbers of reports and any suspious behaver the selling is doing.

Alithea, sorry about being off-topic. I was trying to catch up my reading when this struck me. As I have encountered someone in the sewing section saying the aren't real ball joint dolls, which upset since no one pulled them up and I was ignore when I said I was hurt. Sorry again.

 

That is very disheartening to know, I think I'm just going to have to give up on e-bay for my dolls. They claim sellers will be banned yet they don't do it, it seems like they are just after the fees the items will make for them if they aren't doing anything. What a waste of a policy.

 

I'm ignorant when it comes to types of dolls, companies, etc. It's hard to tell them apart in my eyes. All I see are beautiful dolls.
I agree that copying is wrong, but to me, a bjd is a bjd, and I'd still love to have one. I'm at the point where I know I'll probably never afford one, but if a copy comes along that's really cheap, I don't think I'll know enough to tell it's a copy.

 

Right now the copies are not so prevelant that you can't protect yourself by educating yourself as a buyer. If you're ever in doubt about the legitimacy of a company just do a search for more info on DoA, or ask. There are also legit companies in the same price range, so I don't think you should have a problem finding something original.

I personally feel more comfortable buying off the DoA marketplace than e-bay. That's not to say that bad transacations aren't an issue here, but I have far more faith in this community's ability to police itself than e-bay. e-bay just doesn't seem to give a rat's behind : P

 

When it comes to piracy, there are bootlegs of almost anything. It doesn't have to be costly or super branded. If they think they can make money, even if it's just a little money, they'll do it. I've seen bootlegged shoelaces, books, clothes that aren't even high branded, etc. The price of the original product has no bearing on whether or not it will be pirated. The question for bootleggers are: Can it be done? The reason why Volks and CP are most commonly pirated is less because they're extremely expensive (even CP's limited and Volks' normal runs aren't stupendously expensive, usually less so than a number of companies that aren't pirated as much) and more because they're better known and seen on the internet.

More to the topic at hand, it's easy to say 'oh, we're all just being fussy, a doll is a doll, there's no real impact on anyone if I support bootlegged dolls.' Other than the consequence on the companies, the definite consequence on the community is reduced trust. Now that comicbookartistboi has come out and said that there's an El and one of the 4 sisters head out there that are pirated, how many of us are going to be that much more wary about buying these particular sculpts online or on DoA? I've heard about that bootlegged El a few months ago and ever since, I've always thought that when it comes to dolls, I'm only going to purchase from well known sellers or those who have a number of dolls themselves.

What about the health consequences of purchasing bootlegged dolls? We have no idea how the resin were cured. The doll might look exactly the same with beautiful finishing but they're cutting corners somewhere, we just don't know where. How do we know we're not inhaling poison? Owners of pirated dolls might say oh, they're fine and healthy now, that's proof that it's alright. But, how would you know five years down the track, you won't develope a condition? Would you risk your pets and kids near the doll in case they decide it's a great idea to give it a lick? The people who are creating the bootlegged dolls are probably working in less than stellar conditions as well, most likely risking their own health to produce something cheap with as little expenditure as possible (It's been said by people who sculpt, cast and finish their own dolls that it can be a hazardous procedure if precautions aren't taken). That is also another difference between bootlegged dolls and handbags/cothes/etc.

 

I believe eBay's policy is still that the bootlegs have to be reported either by the rights owner or by law enforcement before they will do anything. In other words, if the FBI decided to report some bootlegs, they would fill out a special Law Enforcement form and eBay would probably pull the auctions - even if they turned out to be legitimate and not fakes later. Likewise, if Volks reported a company for posting fake dolls, eBay would make them fill out proper forms and then would probably pull the auctions, even if they turned out to be legitimate and not fakes later. (This has actually happened to people who were selling legitimate Disney stuff that did not have to be licensed because the company that made the fabric already paid the license fee - eBay just pulled the auctions on Disney's say-so, though it was wrong, and the sellers had to file a suit to stop eBay from doing that).

Ebay will not do anything if ordinary fans of dolls, or jewelry, or whatever, report alleged fakes. Some reasons eBay gives for this is that fans can't really tell from a listing if it's fake or not, the product might be licensed or legitimate, and most of all eBay gets worried about witch hunts and people interfering with other people's auctions and doesn't like to be involved in that stuff. It took eBay a really long time to even put in place a process for the rights owners to have stuff pulled because, like I said, the law (as well as eBay wanting to get more listing fees) encourages eBay to stay out of individual transactions.

So basically, a million people reporting Lolidoll are not going to help unless one of those people owns the copyright, patent, or other legal rights to whatever is being copied.

 

I would urge you to actually educate yourself on eBay's policies - there's quite a few articles about them online. People don't really understand why eBay does what it does because they don't take the trouble to read up on it and find out. That doesn't excuse everything eBay does, but it would be good if people would come at this with more understanding. Comment is not directed at you personally, just my knee-jerk response to eBay posts *steps off soapbox*

 

Now that the debate seems to have cooled off a bit and returned to the original topic, I think I'll join in again.

I also haven't seen any knockoffs in person (to my knowledge) but I will add that I ordered a doll directly from one of the major companies, and she arrived relatively unfinished. The seams were VERY visible (to the point that they would snag on some clothing), so I'm not certain how much they were sanded. There were extra bits of resin around the neckhole area, too. So much so that it started to damage the elastic by sawing into it. In the end, I'm not sure if the finishing/seams will be a way to tell. I'm not sure if my girl was an anomaly though (I know the company was pretty swamped at the time).

Like LKJ, I'm also concerned about lasting health effects. I've heard horror stories about the quality of the material used by Forever Doll, and who knows what's in the resin these companies produce? They're not concerned about creating a quality, safe product... they're just out to make a quick profit.

 

I find, just in general, the idea of copy-dolls and fakes to be incredibly intriguing. I don't believe, in general, someone could tell from a photo if a complete recast was a fake, but in person you could. I haven't bought one of the new fakes on the market, because they don't really even look like fakes, but rather someone is taking a picture of the real thing and saying you will get this doll. Who knows what you would get, if anything? But fakes, imitations...they are part of everything. Fakes have been going strong for hundreds of years, and I think its very interesting to see a 300 year old fake of a 1800 year old pot, or whatever. Not to glorify or support fakes, but I don't think fakes will /ever/ affect the market for the real thing in any signifigant way, because in general, they are pieces of poo. But I find those pieces of poo very interesting.

 

You're getting into a HUGE GREY AREA.

In Japan they will pay for quality and it doesn't matter to them what the price is. Because that is how their society is. Why do some Kimono cost 12,000 U.S. Dollars, a home alter costs 3,000 U.S. Dollars? Because Japan believes that the quality is great and it should be that much. Will they pay for it? Some one would in Japan. Same with the VOLKS company, their prices reflect their quality, and avalibility. VOLKS may be an "international" company but look at where their international places are located Korea and California. California has the biggest Asian Minority in the U.S. while Korea is a country in Asia and may have the same ideas in high quality products. Their main target isn't the U.S./European Audience.