The Dollshe side of the Dollshe/Dollmore copy issue *translated statement page 27*

I personally don't see how this is such a huge problem...

It is the same debate as Volks vs. Dollzone, no?

From those pictures, yes, it is a recast, but they also made significant changes to the mold to the point that they changed the joint system and made it better for posability. They also took the anorexic torso and made him... A&F model stomach.

I understand the problems with it, but I also see many double standards in this situation.

I will cite this again, if someone does the same thing with a head mold, is it not the same problem? Sure that person COULD sculpt the entire head, but they chose not to. Isn't that what Dollmore did? They COULD sculpt it, but instead they took a pre-existing doll and sculpted over it.

Yes, it is sad what happened but I don't see why people have to jump up and tear others down over the situation...

And honestly I like the Dollmore body many times over compared to the Dollshe body. x.x I am sure they are already at work on sculpting a body 100% their own that will still be better posability wise than the Dollshe body.

I hope I didn't upset anybody... ;-; I really don't intend to, I just wanted to enter my opinion...

Edit: Are there really any moral in the business world? really now...

 

Well, I would hope that the moral implications (which is basically the main part of this case) would be very much taken into consideration.

Please understand, I am not rooting for one side or the other- I ahve just seen an awful lot of arguements over subjects like this, and the only real way to put an end to it is via the law. After all, no-one would ever suggest that the Forever Doll dolls were anything but copies- becuase it was proven once and for all in court.

 

I think Dollmore did not say that they have indeed copied it, did they?

Agreed that I won't make any conclusions until a legal decision has been made.

 

Some interesting comments here about why the Dollmore boy "looks" different and why it may or may not be "okay" to recast another sculpter's work and "improve" on it.

If the torso was recast from a Dollshe Hound torso - the piece could still be worked on and modified in many ways - the washboard stomach being built up around the recast part. Yes, the "outside" elements of the Dollmore boy are beefed up - that isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not the body was recast from the Hound body and that IS NOT a permissable thing, there is no such thing as a 20 - 30% change from an original, if the Dollmore body WAS recast from the Dollshe body, then it has been illegally obtained and that is also morally wrong.

 

Nope, they haven't; in fact they have been very evasive if not downright silent on the matter. That's part of what has upset Kim so much; the fact that they have met his questions with silence, refusing to actually admit it.

For myself, the internal casting defect replication makes this whole thing far more clear-cut than the controversy over DZ and Yukinojo. As things stand at present, I am happy to buy from DZ - but I will never buy from Dollmore again, and I am removing them from my list of links on my website, too. The internal casting defects are too damning and conclusive, IMO. The fact that Dollmore refuse to admit what they have done is only making them look worse.

I am curious, though; has anyone done a similar comparison of the internal surface of the Model girls and the Dollshe girls such as Afgha/Afghan? Is the copy-casting restricted to only the 70cm boys, or were the 70cm girls also based on copy-casting? How far does this extend?

 

I do find the DZ/Dollmore comparisons that people have brought up here very interesting, and I wonder how much the varying background to what is essentially the same act will affect how we as a hobby see them. Trying to clarify a little, when DZ went through its copying phase it was a fledgeling company that no-one had any pre-existing ties of loyalty to. There was no built-in fondness for the company already existing amongst us collectors, which made it easier for them as a company to be blacklisted by a lot of people - even after they began making their own original dolls, that predjudice against them is still quite obvious amongst some collectors today, most likely a holdover from the original scandal and the more recent doubts about their big boy's body looking a lot like Yukinojou's.

Dollmore, on the other hand, has been around for far, far longer (long enough to know better, certainly) and a lot of people love the company, its dolls and the other things they sell such as clothes, acccessories and the like. I wonder if that will affect people's reactions to these charges if they're proved in court, and if so how the general feeling towards Dollmore will differ from that towards Dollzone?

Either way, Dollmore have effectively shot themselves in the foot with this whole business. I can't see them regaining customer trust very easily, even if they should come out of the whole legal business smelling of roses. People are going to be very suspicious and willing to jump to conclusions of copying with all the new dolls they release from now on (I notice Arkady mentioned just this point in the post above), and it's going to be difficult for their reputation to recover from this any time soon, I think.

 

The Dollmore girls are a completely, and I mean completely different sculpt than the Dollshe girls.

 

Silly me....I'm off on another tangent, I guess.

I'm still trying to figure out how Tensiya got into this. Tensiya has nothing to do with the making of the Dollshe dolls...many companies sell the dolls....Lutz, and Implehouse to name two others.

Why would Tensiya care if the hound is copied or not? And if Tensiya cares, why doesn't Lutz or Implehouse? This make no sense to me.

Plus, I know Anu....and if she was out to hit another company about a doll copy.......how come I just found out yesterday about this time? I hear from her about several things....why not this topic, if she had a mission? I would have known......I guarantee that! (I know several of you knew about this Loooog before I did.)

I'm sorry I just don't see it, and I don't think Tensiya should be brought into this.....they do NOT make the Dollshe dolls.

I DO wish if this was going to be brought out, that Dollshe had the time to do it in the manner they saw fit. All this third person stuff is not getting it.....and isn't admissable.......

 

US copyright law isn't going to dictate what happens here unfortunately. But I wouldn't say Korean copyright doesn't exist. They are part of the Berne Convention. But their laws certainly aren't as strict as ours.

Oh and the thing about changing an item 30% is NOT found anywhere in US Copyright law. No statute or regulation from the US Copyright office actually says this. No judge has made a ruling saying this either. It's sort of an urban legend, a myth. I'm guessing something someone made up to try to get around the substantial similarity rule for copyright infringement.

 

I believe it's been said that tensiya is VERY VERY close with Mr. Dollshe. they are like friends or partners.

It's like, someone stole your best friends homework project and gave it to the teacher first. Do you just sit there??

(And no no, it's bad comparision, but i'm just examplifying the emotion that's being exchanged)

 

I am hoping Hyon will come into this thread again and explain exactly WHY Tensiya is a part of this whole thing. They were brought into this thread because they have had something to do with all of this.

I would explain it, but I have already said way too much in this thread, and it's really better to hear it directly from Dollmore.

As to the conjecture that Dollmore has been evasive, and not addressed this, or been fair with Dollshe, I disagree with that.

If they were being evasive, or had anything to hide, do you think they would have given Dollshe a Kyle to dissect? I think not.

From my perspective, I think Dollmore was showing a heck of alot of good will towards Dollshe to do that, and it's been used exclusively to put a certain spin on this whole thing that makes Dollmore look bad.

It's a real shame.

 

While you are correct about the not having a patent (if you don't have one you are screwed....the first one to file wins the patent), that doesn't mean that anyone can copy. Copyright law does still protect the sculpt of the doll, though it will only extend to so much. I'm not sure it would cover the jointing, that seems like more of a patent issue. If I were Mr. Dollshe I would file a patent in Korea asap just to cover myself. Though patents are much harder to get...not like copyright at all.

 

I think this is a fairly good point...
If Tensiya had wanted to attack other dollshe selling companies so the can have monopoly on the Dollshe dolls, why not Luts and Iplehouse?

I'm an ousider in terms of sculpting and casting...
But aren't imperfections supposed to be unexpected accidental mistakes?
Two unexpected accidental mistakes in the same spots, looking almost exact looks a bit....Fishy to me

 

Exactly.

Just thinking about this from a bussiness viewpoint- Dollmore was acting as a distributor for Dollshe. So they were getting something out of that arangement. Then they decide to recast the Dollshe dolls and make their own doll out of it. It is effectively saying "Wow, you have a great doll that people love! We're just going to recast it, fix that annoying torso and screw you out of money, kthxbai!"

At least, it seems like that too me.

 

once again i agre. i think i wrote this several times, but my English must be pretty bad or i just suck in general at explaining things lol

let's not be nippy here but basically. the top is modified. more joints were added or taken away. but the inside has evidences that it was origionally a hound body resin that was "improved" upon, not made from scratch at all. Not even "i was looking at hound and got inspired" etc since even the joints can all be replaced, angles are correct, and the inside markings mr. dollshe never finished with the touch up is suspiciously there.

again, let's not be nippy or angry at each other pls. I don’t want this thread locked again. I was translating things and my post got lost earlier T.T

 

It's also possible that DollShe is making these pieces look more copied than they actually are. You know how sometimes it's hard to tell what company a body is from, depending on the angle/lighting/etc?

I'm not saying they're 'fudging' evidence, but... >___>...

It sounds like DollShe might be upset that someone did it better, and that they no longer have a corner on the 70cm-tall boy line...

 

:l Darn. I don't know what to think! I love dollmore, its dolls, and the model boys (I looove Kyle!), and have no particular fondness for the dollshe dolls at all ... but if stealing has occured then that worries me for the future and honesty of dollmore . I think I will reserve judgement for now and just wait to see what happens...

 

The Model girl is a very different sculpt -- here's a thread with nude photos of the Dollshe female body.

I do think that Dollmore used a Hound body to base the Model boy on . . . however, I think the Model girl is an original sculpt --there are far too many differences, including the joints.

I'm happy to give Dollmore credit for their original work -- I'm just sorry that they didn't use their demonstrated creativity in this case, instead choosing to "rework" an existing doll that belonged to someone else.

-- A :/

 

But on the other hand....
Why not attack Dollzone?
Their boys are also 70cm....