The Dollshe side of the Dollshe/Dollmore copy issue *translated statement page 27*

Here's my take, after some sleep on things, and based on (easily correctible) knowledge on general resin casting principles (after having made armor for a costume with it).

Resin doll parts are made from molds, molds that are built from a master sculpt. These molds are meant to be extremely accurate to the original from which they are made, and have to be able to hold up to many, many uses in order to create a significant amount of replications, especially in the case of an unlimited sculpt like say, Hound or Kyle.

That said, if it's in the mold, it will be in EVERY doll made from that mold.

If Mr. Dollshe says there is are flaws in the Hound mold, those flaws should be in EVERY Hound doll, in the EXACT same location, unless there were multiple molds made, say to have a few backups in case a mold breaks or otherwise fails. And even in this case, the additional molds would be made from the master sculpt, which means every mold made from that sculpt should be the same, or dang near close to it.

Now to Kyle. In theory, if a part of him has been copied (we have yet to discuss what parts were supposedly copied from and what parts were just 'highly derivative") and the right precautions were not taken in order to remove certain flaws, they should translate to Kyle's mold. Maybe perfectly, maybe a fraction off due to the way the mold is made (especially internally if someone focused more on outside than within).

So, what's the point of my babble? Maybe take a few minutes and peek at your Hound or Kyle and look for what Mr. Dollshe is talking about in terms of flaws. It sounds like he says these flaws are in the master sculpt, which means they should be in darn near every Hound produced. Are these flaws he's talking about in our dolls?

I can't look in Sai's head right now, as he's packed to go on vacation. But I figure I might just for the sake of curiousity.

Edit: I have a feeling accuracy may come up as part of this discussion. My guess is that doll making standards are EXTREMELY high, expecially for the external side of the doll, but the insides have to be pretty spot-on or else the mechanics may not operate idealistically. Heck, imagine how accurate the molds have to be to replicate the tiny DS logo on all of the V.2 Dollshe boy bodies!

 

I personally think that this fight between dollmore and dollshe will be worked out in court and in talks. If it's for the better or worse.. I have no idea. ^^;
Hard feelings and suspiciousness will be some of the obvious outcomes regardless of verdict.

My only fear and only issue (as an owner of a dollmore u-jee) is that I will be not be able to post him on this site without people internally blacklisting him because of company. Skipping threads..and shunning the dollmore owners even if we are allowed to post. I hope in the end, people on the board will be mature enough to respect the purchases that were made (that had nothing to do with what dollmore might do beyond our control.) I do have a feeling that the majority of the board will move gracefully past this issue, as I like to be optimistic XD

 

Akasha - At the risk of sounding cynical... Dollzone was too different for them to accuse of copying :'D

 

I think it's kind of funny how those arguing for Dollmore haven't quite adressed the inside mistakes of the resin being the exact same in both dolls. Ignoring evidense doesn't make it go away. Are there any valid points on this bit of controversy held by Dollmore supporters? How do you logically explain the same mold marks on the inside of both dolls?

I think people are having trouble rationalizing their like of the Kyle sculpt with the fact it may (IS) an altered Hound and Dollmore has capitalized on Dollshe's success. Do people want to support them simply so they don't feel bad for buying the doll? So they won't feel bad in the future? I think it's possible to say 'I like the Dollmore Kyle more than I do Dollshe boys because of _______, even though Dollmore copied them', but defending the position simply because you own or want to own the doll?

I think it's very obvious that Kyle was reworked from a Dollshe body. I was looking forward to Kyle's release for months since they first hinted at him. I was also hoping for a beefier body. I will not buy this body from them because IMO it's copied. When they release their bigger body I will see if they have the same problem. If I believe they are still copying, I will not buy from them no matter how much I like the doll, personal distaste for conartists, but if it isn't copied I will likely buy it. I will dislike Dollmore and probably use them for nothing other than that one doll. I think it's fine to say 'I want to defend Dollmore because I like Kyle better' but at least be honest about it. Every cry of 'copy' has people refusing to believe it because they LIKE the sculpt. You can still like something and aknowledge it's not original.

Frankly it's a mystery to me why some people find it so hard to balance this out in their heads whereas others are able to show their disappointment at a copy depite yes, liking and wanting the doll.

 

well yes. what Mr. Dollshe is saying is that that particular FLAW inside the body should be in EVERY SINGLE MOLD of EVERY HOUND BODY ;D

and because he FOUND them in Kyle's body, to him it was a solid proof that they changed the top area, but they forgot to cover their tracks at the inside.

something along that line.

 

...Thanks :'D

I don't trust those photos, not after seeing owner photos of Hound and Kyle being compared. I just. Don't. Trust them.

When I see owner photos of the same markings inside a Kyle, then I'll believe it.

 

Just playing the extreme conspiracy theorist here.....
I can also say Dollshe is behind the Dollzone V. Yuki controversy....
I think I've watch too much Alien suspicion programmes.....

 

Persoanlly, I would be interestd to find out if there is anything else that could have caused those marks, and weather or not they are indeed in every single Hound body ever made.

Sadly, I do not yet own a Saint, or else I would have pulled him apart already to look. Maybe someone else could do that for us?


I still beleive that only a court can be the final judge on this. Until it is legally proven this relly is speculation- no matter how compelling one or other side beleives their arguements to be.

 

Exactly.

Just out of curiousity, I know Dollshe pointed out two Dollshe body flaws that were allegedly duplicated. One I think you said was in the head cavity. Where's the other one again? I think the translation you gave didn't specify, and the picture isn't the cleanest to tell.

 

well said yay!

as a translator, I make sure i only carry what the writer have written, not my own biasm.

Personally i do like Kyle's more poseable body. i've said that. I also like their makeup. (well of course. why else buy my dollshe saint from them?) YOU CAN LIKE KYLE"S MOLD and be dollshe fan. in fact, YOU CAN STILL LIKE KYLE'S MOLD but can also say, "yeah i think that is probably built upon/improved boy of Hound" there's nothing wrong with saying that. they are two different topics.

There's also nothing wrong with loving your doll as long as you KNOW that it's an improved body of Hound. <---- this is said by Mr. Dollshe himself. Re-read that article I translated. he says you guys CAN be dollmore fans. As long as you understand the facts


and about the pictures. HE SAID he will bring them to events for ppl to judge for themselves. he has A LOT of confidence. too bad we don't live in Korea, but i DOUBT he altered the pictures or took them in shady lights so he's pics look better. I mean, if that happened, he'd be bashed when ppl see them in person and THEN, bam, we'd have heard about it.

 

I am defending Dollmore because I see so many marked differences between the dolls, that I can't in any way see Kyle as a copy. Regardless of the internal markings, the doll as a whole has been changed so completely, and dramatically that I see it as a totally different doll. It's a simple as that.

Again, as Guide said, I am quite anxious to see how the courts resolve this, and I hope when that happens we will be privvy to some solid information on what the ruling is.

Keep in mind, I have not had any plans to buy Kyle. My opinion is soley based on my own personal observation and handling of both bodies.

I also think that the Dollshe pics have been intentionally set up in such a way as to try to show similarities as much as possible. I wish all of you could actually handle both dolls and compare them for yourselves, rather than from someones "presentation."

 

*counts out 2 pennies*

1) Everyone please look up the difference between patent and copyright? A patent is for a practical invention, such as the double-jointed knees. Copyright is for an artistic work, such as the unique sculpt of the hands. Patent must be registered for each work, in each country where it is to be protect, and the work can be used by anyone if it hasn't been. (So, without a patent, anyone can make double-jointed knees.) Copyright is automatic and applies in any signatory to the Berne Convention, and the work can only be used with permission (so no one else can recast the unique sculpt).
2) There is NO set X% that can be changed to escape a charge of copyright. None. There was a case where one sentence was copied out of a novel-length book, and the book's author won because that single sentence out of thousands was viewed to encompass the heart of the work.
3) I don't know what's usual and customary in Korea. If this were happening in the US, I'd say that neither party should have brought this public, and they'd probably suffer in court for doing so with the risk of a libel suit if they lose or reduced award if they win. It should have been handled entirely by the legal system, and questions about it answered with no details, only that it was the subject of a current lawsuit.
4) I have no doubt that some parts of Kyle were directly copied from the Dollshe body. A little background on me. I'm not a lawyer, nor a copyright expert, nor a sculptor. Previously, however, I was in a 3D art community wherein a case of accused copyright infringement was made public a good three times a month, and so I picked up some things to look for on virtual models. Many of these carry across to real models as well.
a) The five indentions in a row with one below, in the same location and orientation on the same bodypart. Highly unlikely to have happened by coincidence. However, it's something that would likely go unnoticed by someone who was making a copy of the mold, and so would be transferred. Similarly, the little blob on the inside of another part.
b) The prominant collarbone and tendons, with their unique shape. I doubt they would look so incredibly similar if Kyle's sculptor had not either copied them directly, or been looking at a Dollshe body and trying to reproduce it by hand.
c) The fact that joint parts can be swapped between the two dolls, and fit as though made for the other's socket. Between my sister and I, we have 10 different types of dolls in this house, and I don't think we could take a hinged joint off any doll and fit it onto any other and have it work, no matter how similar in size and build they were. That's one heck of a coincidence.
d) The hands are utterly damning to me. Hound has such unique hands, both in their detail and their position. Look at the lines across the palms, the tendons on the back. the shame of the knuckles. Kyle's are so similar, only smoothed out -- a common side effect of trying to take a mold off a small, elaborate part. Or if they weren't copied that directly, they were certainly sculpted with an eye toward recreating the Hound hand. There is absolutely no way that a pair of hands would have been sculpted from scratch with no direct reference to the Dollshe hands, and come out so similar in so many regards.

If I had to guess, I’d say that the legs from the mid-thigh down were made completely from scratch. The torso was built upon a Dollshe torso, but with significant changes below the arm-pits. The arms were copied almost directly. That’s just a guess, of course, but to me, it’s very clear that some parts have been copied, and "partly copied" is copied, flat out.

 

looks like the best thing is i translate that entire bottom line since i'm the only one who can read it right now XD *and great Cherished XD *

i'll have to do that after i get off work, so please be understanding.

it's mostly these two areas. one had holes in which he didn't smoothened out. another is when he combined the two pieces, he just didn't fix the bump




another is palm lines.

i'll have to translated them once i get back home.

i'd also like to translate the forum ... i think. i did, but the mods locked it last night and it got erased T.T


someone also give me linkes to FOr Bermann and whatever other forums out there in korean. i'll try my best -.-;;;;;

 

That's not true about everyone. You don't know if those pictures were tampered with, using photoshop or some other program, just because someone was upset. What would really prove to me that what here is being said is true. Is the owner pictures of kyle, that's hardcore proof then. Some people just require more proof than others, and others require more information on both companies, rather than believing hearsay. That is all.

And even if he was copied but modified better was true, the issue would then be, can dollshe really take dollmore to court and win.

I am not trying to be rude to you or anything. Please take that in consideration.

Edit: Can anyone take pictures of the inside of kyle? Anyone who has kyle.

 

well i agree. it's clearly a different doll. i mean, it poses completely different!! o.O it's incredible in my opinion.

but as Zagzagael said. IF that body was origionally made by adding putti and sculpting on top of Hound body, then it's a copy. no matter how much you have altered it. because it's NOT made from scratch.

that's all we are saying i think...

 

Pictures can be very deceptive, however. The right photographers could point out the likeness AND the differences just by the way you lay the pieces out (or the whole doll) and photograph them.

Of course, Dollshe's are going to be biased, because he's set them up to prove his point. Pam's are set up as informational photos, and therefore can be read for likeness and difference. I saw both when looking at them myself. She could change the feel just by changing the captions.

 

Well-said. I think it's sad that this is going to have a lasting effect on Dollmore's business, regardless of the outcome. Like you said, we all feel a bit betrayed to see such things coming from a well-established BJD dealer.

But let me ask- Dollmore has had no past transgressions such as this, right? Up until now they have been regarded as an honest and efficient business? I want to order a Banji girl, and they are the only place I have seen Banjis available.

Also, yes, someone needs to take a peek inside their Dollshe boy to see if he has the "imperfections." After looking at PamSD's comparison shots . . . I think it's just so strange that the dolls look so different from the outside. But on the inside, yes, the evidence is there. And I'm not distrusting Mr. Dollshe's word or photos, but I wonder if we can find the same evidence in our own dolls that he has presented.

 

A picture is worth a thousand words......and these most certainly have passed a thousand words... lol..

VERY damning indeed.
All the rest seems more like "CYA" (cover your ass) "reasonings"....
all this could have been avoided with communications from the beginning...

Pam.. you've expressed it beautifully.....
"like a mother knows it's child...... an artist also knows his creations"....

 

Tuvie- I don;t think anyone will frown on you for ordering a Banji. They are definately not copies of anything, and really are quite sweet. ^_-

 

well.... dollmore dollshe saint or not..... i'm not selling my dollmore saint ^^;;; i love this man to death T.T no matter what the outcome

and personally i wouldn't frown anyone for buying from dollmore. that shouldn't be what it's about. all we are asking is, is Hound body used in any shape or form in making Kyle.