The ethics of photographing 'children' in BJDdom

That's what I was thinking!

 

Oh no, Anonymous! (Actually, 4chan convinced me to go into computer forensics, so when I get there, I'll be hunting down the real pedophiles.... which makes this thread all the more interesting.)

I agree that we should topic our gallery threads correctly, (if I ever get an El you might see "shota" in the headers) but it bothers me when you see "[doll nudity]" warnings in the opening/arriving forum. They're a freakin' mummy when you get them, people. I know our dolls are like little people to us, but don't you think it's a little silly to be all "OH MY GOD, IT'S A RESIN MANHOOD! AVERT THINE EYES! D: "

As someone else above stated, we're well on our way to another Victorian age. With all this political correctness junk, and being able to sue each other left and right for the smallest of things, our world has turned into a place of fear--fear we'll--"diety" forbid--offend someone. Society has really gone to hell if they're debating over clothed pictures of children. And pieces of resin? I hate to be a broken record, but whatever floats your boat. People hate it when others enforce any sort of morality on them, which I think is more the issue here than it being against the law.

Bugger. I'll stop, I'm getting off-topic. Still. Seeing two small shapely blobs of resin on a childlike-shaped larger resin piece poking out beneath some silk sheets shouldn't have to get you arrested. We're gonna hafta change that thinking.

 

Forgive the complete paraphrasing Jenny but I completely agree with the above statements.

Quite frankly, in regards to this discussion, it really is about intent. But the thing that scares the hell out of me equally is other's intents as well when viewing your/our material. In example, I have wonderful pictures of my daughter (who is turning 4yrs old on 9-11) having a riot in her tub time, and they are so cute and sweet and innocent. But the mere fact that she is naked...even if lower extremities(sp) are covered w/ bubbles...yeah..I could never share them online for fear of them landing in some sicko's hands. I hate that crippling effect, just the fear of what 'could' happen.

I feel the same way about my dolls too, at least the younger bodied ones like the sd10's. No matter how I look at it...they are just little kids to me, and in situations of true innocent photo shoots (like bathtime) that I wish I could do..I know I can't bring myself to do it without fear of feeding some paedophile's collection Call it overprotective paranoid mommy disease.

 

Shouldn't, but does.

It is silly, sure-- especially in the Arrivals photoshoots!-- but there are people who would prefer to be warned before accidentally clicking on something that may have Resin Manhood (or Exposed Child Buttocks) (or Huge Resin Hooters With Peanut-Smuggling) inside. So, proper titling is all, if you want to keep your freedoms while keeping your audiences from freaking out. And personally, I don't care for looking at tits or children, so I appreciate it when people put those in the title.

I post lots and lots and lots of nude photos of teen-to-adult male dolls. Of course I happen to think they're all artistic, but there are those who don't see nudity that way, so they think my "intent" is not so pure. So the subject-line warnings are for them. The pictures are for the people who want to see them. The really naked pictures go on Controversialdoll, because I'm more comfortable showing them there.

Food for thought: The first time that the Photobucket censors nailed me was when I posted my box-opening & joint-closeup pictures of my Soo Ri; he was naked, half-assembled, and I was zooming in on the fancy new leg-rotation joints to show them off. But apparently, his enormous Dainty Bits eclipsed his joint-system, in the minds of the censors. (I won't go into how quickly they nailed my friend's pictures of her Unoa boy option parts when she finished blushing them & painting in veins.)

Remember: this is a world where they put pants on Mr. Kool-Aid, & accuse Tinky Winky of being gay. The masses are always one shout away from a lynch mob.

 

I can understand why people would put warnings even in the arrivals gallery, for some people it's more a case of not wanting to click on something NSFW, and not every arrival thread has nekkid box opening pics (sometimes it's just first photos of a wigless doll in a sock dress or what have you ). I know I've sometimes clicked on stuff that has naked doll photos in it and closed the window fairly quickly because I do my forum reading at work.


That Coppertone ad thing is creepy though... I never really liked that ad, as a kid or as an adult, but that so many pedophiles keep a copy of it...

I find it creepifying.

 

Well, I come at this from a different angle, because I found and loved Hans Bellmer before I found modern BJD, so, to me, these dolls have always been inherently sexual. Therefor I wouldn't have any problem with anyone continuing beloved Hans' tradition of pedophilic photography. As we are talking about beloved Hans, it should be mentioned that he REALLY LIKED LITTLE GIRLS. His dolls were an alternative, and also a way to explore more violent fantasies in 3D.

That said, the other thing that attracked me to Hans Bellmer, and modern BJD in turn, was the emphasis put on sculpture. So to me, that says that thes dolls were meant to be naked. If someone went through the trouble of sculpting them, and someone else went through the trouble of giving them a tatoo, then it could be said that you are doing the creatives a disservice by not showing them. Also, in case you haven't guessed, I see these dolls solely as works of art.

 

*shrugs my characters are all from another age and time period. Victorian, Tudor and before that. It wasn't until like... less than a century ago that girls had to be 18 to marry, in fact, until october 1998 in japan legal marrying age was 16. So I've got some characters who are teenaged girls with older guys but it makes sense in the time period and I am all about logic because if all my girls were 18/19/21 in that era and unmarried, why, they'd be considered old maids! a girl could be engaged years before she gets to marrying age, which is when she's about 12-14.

I'll write stories about these characters and I have been perfectly ok with that. When I get these dolls I WILL be photographing them kissing and cuddling and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Now if these dolls were supposed to be from 'modern' times... hm... strangely enough I'd have a problem O.o because seeing a teenaged girl with a much older guy in his 20's is a definite no-no in our society in this day and age. So I guess I'm all about be 'true to life' in that it must make sense with the time period and the culture.

Sexual situations ... well, this is a big public forum so if I ever do try to make any (tasteful) photoshoots then it won't be here. I'd probably post it on a private website with a lot of warnings and in controversial doll >.>

so you all know my background, well I'm 18 and I'm female and most of many of my character concepts were made when I was very young... like 12+ so maybe their ages were because I identified best with a character more my age and I also love medieval/Victorian etc. sorts of things so of course my characters are from that era.

I guess that means that if I exploit my dolls then it would kind of be like... exploiting myself O.o

 

this is something i thought about recently...

my girl is a KD jeong head on an MNF body (or will be, soon) her character says she's lived for many years (she's not human) but that doesnt change the fact she has a very young face and mature body.

· Do images of naked underage dolls cause you any disquiet/moral dilemma?
no, not at all. unless its in some sexual way, i suppose. im an adult and theres nothing strange about nudity to me o_o
· Are you concerned by sexualized images of underage dolls?
it depends on the context and the character, i suppose. but for no reason or for untasteful humour...i dont like it

just wanted to agree with taco on this:

i can see why it concerns so many people but for me its not a major issue, but as for would i photograph my dolls naked...it depends on the character ^^; i know some of my girls are shy and would feel uncomfortable so i just couldnt...others dont mind (maybe sounds a lil silly but thats how it is)

as for topicing threads..oh please please do. sometimes i browse at school or infront of certain people...then ill click on i thread and realise theres nudity and its like ^^;;; it doesnt concern me but um, my company isnt so pleased. especially if some young cousins happen to wander in and whatnot

seeing dolls naked is neccessary for me really, like when im deciding on bust size or for which character i want the old KD body or the new one. i didnt think about it at the time; im just creating a character, y'know ^^;

 

Well, for my part, I don't have any problems with nudity in an artistic way. But I guess the trouble could come with the charater. If it really is a child, then I guess I would have some trouble, if it's just for a special artistic photoshoot... then I guess I wouldn't mind as it would be out of the doll's character.

Anyway, there are many ways of seeing dolls, I grew up with a good teaching about sex, I know what can be done and what is "not so good" to do.

But as Flyingwind66 says, sexual ethic has changed a lot through the ages. There was a time when a girl was married at twelve to an old man in his thirties... now we tend to marry and have children after our twenties and there was much trouble about pedophilie (sorry don't know how to write it in english) So that's true that we can ask ourselves if it's good or bad.

What I mean to say is : Everything depends on the caracter and the way you want to express your sense of art. But on the whole, I wouldn't be so shocked about a nice shooting that shows nicely the nudity of a young doll... (if it's just sex for sex then that's a bit different and maybe not so nice to see...)

 

disclaimer: *underage here means "kiddy" for me*

· How do you feel about photographing your 'underage' dolls naked?

i never photograph them in sexual ways, so i still think it's alright. it's just like a baby picture to me

· Do images of naked underage dolls cause you any disquiet/moral dilemma?

..only if they're featured in particular perverse situtations, or naked just because the owner has dirty thoughts about them.

· Are you concerned by sexualized images of underage dolls?

YES. to me it's like using dolls instead of real children - the feeling is still there and it does disturb me :/ if i saw a paedophile stroking a doll, i honestly would be just as affected by the nature of the person. ..plus i think dolls have feelings ><

· Or does the fact that they are, when you get right down to it, 'just dolls' mean that their (admittedly fictional) 'age' has no bearing on how they are/should be portrayed?

yup i guess age has no bearing.. though it really does depend very much on the character that the owner wants to give the dolls. I feel these dolls represent humans in some way, so they could be used as actors/actresses for an idea, but still should not be exploited just because they aren't human..

 

&#183; Or does the fact that they are, when you get right down to it, 'just dolls' mean that their (admittedly fictional) 'age' has no bearing on how they are/should be portrayed?

Note;; I'm not sure if this is relevant! But it poses a question =D.

Well, child pornography IS illegal, right (is here anyways)? SO, anywhere where children are going to be used shouldn't include images in a pornographic way, right? This is also true in games and stuff (unless they're bought on the black market, eurgh).
Ok, I'm a self-professed psycho ass yaoi fangirl, and every yaoi game I've seen have a massive sign at the back saying that ALL characters are "OVER 18!" So the game designers can't get sued =D (That smiley is in a sarcastic way.. by the way D=). Even if the game is erotic as all hell (I like suggestive better), Noone can say anything, because all the characters are "OVER 18 FTW!!!". Any WHY would they want to say anything in the first place? Because the characters don't LOOK 18! Sure, some do, but most are the shy childish types (coincidentally, smaller as well. MUCH smaller).

Isn't this the same with dolls? or ANYTHING really? Everything in any erotic article is shown as older, but perceived as WAY younger.

Everyone knows, they've seen the "naughty" outfits sold in various lingerie stores. Schoolgirls and rabbits and stuff. In this case, anyone will say that "THE CHARACTERS ARE OVER 18 FTW!", and because they've said that, they can't get smacked with a law suit, no matter how childlike the characters actually ARE.


To get back on dolls, it really depends. You're just taking a photo of a tat right? It's probably fine..xD I'm not bothered with doll nudity, and like many others have already said, I'm just bothered with intentional pornographic scenes. Sure, doll love-making scenes ARE out there, but love-making and pornography is different in a way, I suppose.

Sorry if someone has already stated all that >.>

 

I guess, my doll having 'goodies' makes me a little protective over my girl.
I don't like people seeing her nude, because she's got such a young looking body.
But nude photos?
As long as they aren't in lewd/suggestive positions I guess it's alright
because they Are just dolls.

I mean look at diaper commercials, naked babies used to be all over television.
It's not made to be perverted material, if some pervert acts like it is it doesn't change anything.

 

I think this is actually a VERY important debate, because there is alot of child-like and childly dolls everywhere - Many underage and some not.
I can't speak out of the generel oppinion, but I do see them as dolls and craftmanship - Ofcourse I have "feelings" towards them - But I don't think it's direct violation of any sorts -- HOWEVER! I do not LIKE the idea of photographing underage dolls in "sexually enviroments" or what we would call it, but when it's just to show the beauty of a doll and the body it as - I feel there's nothing wrong with that
I think there's a very strong line between beautiful and sexual, when it comes to photographing (Ofcourse it can be blurry at times), so as along one doesn't crosses that line - I have no problem with it.

 

I don't think I'd be comfortable with photographing any of my dolls in a sexual way and posting them online because of the way that I relate to my dolls, but I have no problem with other people doing so.

I actually do have a problem though in that some of my characters are very short so I am getting them MSD sized bodies but I intend for them to be fully adult (one is in his 30s!) Although I have no particular plans of showing them naked in a sexual situation, I would be quite sad if people misinterpreted it if I put them in a romantic situation with an equally short or even taller partner. This has less to do with worries about people seeing it as pedophilic and more that I'd be sad that people didn't understand the character (especially if I stated the age.)

That being said, naked or extremely sexually suggestive dolls has ceased to bother me since I started hanging around places that sell anime figures and dolls in Japan. They're so ubiquitous and some of them are really really explicit. I just kind of tune them out now. What's funny is that it isn't censored at all like it is in America and children are freely allowed to wander into these places with their parents. However the children that were there were far more interested in the Pokemon and other toys aimed at their age group than in the adult stuff. I did see one girl walking around with her father looking at the figures and she stopped in front of a sexually explicit one and she asked him something about it. He didn't get embarrassed or anything but just answered her question and she was like, "Oh, well, I think it's boring" and then moved on to look at the age-appropriate Pretty Cure dolls. This really got me wondering about whether children are actually going to be "hurt" by looking at depictions of sexually explicit nudity or whether they'll just ignore them or think that they're boring/gross the way kids often look at kissing.

Not to say that there aren't plenty of problems with Japan and sexuality. (Although as an interesting side note, based on studies I've read, the increasing amount of sexualized "lolita" depictions in Japan has not resulted in a rise in pedophile crimes.) I mean, there are in every culture. It just seems like the way we make such a big deal about it in America and turn it into a huge taboo does have a harmful effect on some people as they grow older. Especially since it makes it something that they don't feel they can safely confide in adults about without feeling like they're doing something wrong.

 

Interestingly enough, in America, crime is decreasing. It's true. We just hear about it more because of the gorram media.
Back on topic... I can understand why you all would be uncomfortable with pictures of your dolls being used as fap material, especially if your dolls are "younger". However, since I've had some of my own art from DA posted on desuchan and 4chan, I've kind of learned to let it go. It's the internet. Nothing is safe. I'd hate for a sicko to use bath or beach pictures of my future REAL children, but I'll prevent that by not posting them.
Again, my opinion does not count since I enjoy shota. XD

 

As for the tushie question everyone has one and they don't bother me. Doll and baby tushies are cute. If nothing else put a thong on her, many places around the world have beaches where people wear only teeny weeny bottoms and no one is bothered.

 

It's -your- doll. And you want to take a picture of a tattoo. Since it's your property, and not human, you can pretend it's your butt, and take as many pictures as you like. And then post it all over the internet. If anyone has objections... well then. Whiner alert.

 

When I first joined DOA, there was a person leaving. He was trying to adopt a child and was afraid that this site would affect him negatively. It just really struck me how something relatively innocent can make those in the "real" world uncomfortable. I dont take unclothed pictures of my dolls, and certainly never would if it was a child body. Just because I would hate to have this affect me 10 or 20 years down the road. I would hate to have some lawyer use this hobby to prove me an unfit mother. And I think a lot of people on this board are young and have never thought of future implications of taking an innocent picture.

 

Its things like this that make me wonder what the hell is wrong with this world.

And if things like this innocent hobby (for most of us) can be seen as a bad thing in taht sense...what then of authors? If someone can depict relationships and stories with physical dolls, what of those who can weave words as well as some people can? What of horror story writers, or like, murder mysteries or soemthing? If a story and a few pictures had the possibility of getting someone in trouble, where does that leave those who do whatever they please with just words? The next step is saying that someone who writes a horrific murder story is--oh, but of course--a murderer.

This world drives me nuts. People allow so much to happen, but link everything together and make everything seem horrible, all too easily. Because taking a picture of a doll to show off artwork is so horrible. because taking a picture of someones own tattoo would be so horrible. because taking a picture of a small child in a bathtub is so horrible. Because everything that was private before the internet is no longer such, and people put everything up for the world to see....Giving everyone the right to judge everything they wouldnt do as bad....proving that someone can't take an innocent picture of something nude or seminude anymore...like, a child....themselves...a doll...

because we never played with barbies as kids, undressing them and looking at their not-quite-right anatomy and comparing it to those around us, or our own, or other dolls. Because....nothing can possibly be innocent anymore.


Heh, i think i rambled too much. Sorry.

 

And that, right there, is the crux of the issue, unfortunately...

Even if you intend nothing creepy, or sexual, or at all predatory in your pictures, you can't control how other people are going to see them. And it's an unfortunate truth in our culture at the moment that more people will choose to see something perverted than not.

Your photos could be the most innocent, artistic things in the world, but if someone is determined to find something offensive in them, they will. You can't do anything about that, and like it or not, it's something that has to be considered when you post...

That's the reason why I'll never, ever post pictures of my own Ryuko (KD Jeong) and Ahnju (Vampire Elf Yder). They're completely innocent; a nine year-old little girl and her simple-minded, deer-kami pet... They're very cute together. But I know that as soon as I posted them, somebody, somewhere would see pictures and start ranting about "OMG! Loli!", no matter how they were posed or dressed, and no matter how many times I added text explaining the relationship as childlike and non-sexualized. Period.

I don't think that's a good state of affairs... but it's the one we have to live with and work under at this point. Having the idealism to want to change it is an excellent thing, but we also need to be realistic about how cultural mores and other people's perceptions impact what we do... Even if that ultimately drives us to self-censor in order to avoid potential misunderstandings.