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the Human Race(s), standards of beauty, & the BJD hobby

Apr 1, 2011

    1. Just my two cents for the sake of ethnographic curiosity: in Russia proper where the majority of the population is ethnically Slavic and therefore fair, all the traditional folk songs talk about the Black-Eyed girl (or boy) and the Dark Curls as the feature of extreme beauty and desirability. Just another proof that it's normal for people to find exotic things visually appealing. I find it especially ironic considering a degree of xenophobia that is also quite typical for a traditional culture.

      Special thanks to JennyNemesis for the info on those gorgeous brown sparkly eyes - I am creating a brown-eyed brunette character right now and I am on the lookout for nice brown eyes. :)
       
    2. Lelite:
      Thank-you for the entire post that this came from! I find it quite tiresome to hear that caucasions are subconsciously idolized all over the planet, because it is simply not true. Paleness may be much more universally considered ideal, but that doesn't always extend to 'whiteness.'

      Also, was this me?

      Because I really wasn't trying to say that anyone was being racist -- I actually love the extent to which these dolls can become formal objects of beauty that, in some ways, make race a non-issue (like fantasy dolls, or dolls whose colouring is so artificial that conventional notions of race basically collapse into nothing, or dolls who are stylized, or who are just simply attractive, ambiguous looking people)-- probably most owners want dolls that are in some way attractive to them, and of course, what I really think is most important for this hobby is that people like their dolls.

      In the context of this discussion, however, dark skinned dolls are a visible minority of sorts, and, while I think that grinding everything down to the issue of race is usually not all that productive, sometimes it can be, especially in cases where, like some of Iplehouse's releases, dolls have been released with clearly 'ethnic' features. Given that these specific dolls seem to be a representation of some kind of race, I think it's fair to examine that representation alongside related representations of that same race.
       
    3. I have to say that I agree that rarity plays a big part when choosing colours for dolls. I'm from Sweden where blond and blue-eyed used to be more or less the norm. My blond, blue-eyed sister hoped her daughter would get the brown eyes of her husband. Personally I've always found blond hair and blue eyes quite boring.
       
    4. Actually, Western beauty standards are constantly in a state of flux, which is best shown by classical art through the ages. Nowadays, yes, larger breasts are what is typically desired, but back in the 1920s, the aim was to have an androgynous figure that was flat-chested and straight up and down. In Rubens' time, plumpness was thought beautiful, and in the era of the pre-Raphaelites it was good to have long rippling hair and strong noble features. I don't know at what point the East and the West began influencing each other, but I bet back then, the most beautiful woman in the world would not be considered beautiful today.

      Yes, that's true- but as pale skin, double eyelids, and different hair and eye colours (blonde, light brown, red, platinum, and blue, green, hazel, grey etc) are all natural characteristics of Caucasians, I don't think its narcissistic to assume Asian beauty standards are linked to a Caucasian appearances. You're assuming the the person doing the original assuming thinks Caucasian beauty standards are more beautiful than the typical Asian appearance.
      I don't know whether the AIM is to look Caucasian per se, but if someone has all those characteristics, they ARE going to appear more Caucasian than they would if they had dark skin, straight black hair and dark eyes with a single eyelid. Yes, it's a stereotype, but a widespread one, so I wouldn't blame someone for thinking it.

      Anyway, back to dolls. All my dolls are Caucasian, but that's down to their storyline and characters, rather than me specifically wanting Caucasian dolls. They're mostly from Europe, from a time when Europe was less multi-cultural than it is now. I actually have plans for an Asian doll- I would love to make a doll of Fa Mulan, and she would have the typical straight black hair and dark brown eyes and possibly tan skin- because I think they are just as beautiful as pale skin and light eyes.
       
    5. I think this conversation would be a lot more relevant if we were talking about dolls that children buy. In that case, I think it is very important for there to be a variety of dolls that represent different ethnicities. And companies (like the Pleasant Company, original creator of American Girl) have tapped into that market successfully. It's empowering for a little girl or boy to have a doll that looks like them. But note also that AG and others have created customizable lines of dolls so that girls (in this case) can make a doll that looks even more like them-- one with dark brown skin and blue eyes, for instance-- which of course is genetically possible (PhD in genetics here) although rare.

      In this case, however, we are talking about fully customizable dolls intended for the adult collector. How many of us are trying to create accurate representations of the "standard" look for a given ethnicity? (Most ethnicities are not homogenous enough for there to be a "standard" look, anyway) Most of the dolls I see are fantasy in some way, i.e., the artist's idea of beauty that does not completely overlap with reality. And even in the case of wanting to represent reality, I don't see that there's anything wrong in creating a multiracial looking doll. It's no more an insult to someone of "pure" genetic lineage than a multiracial human is.

      And as an aside I am truly looking forward to the day when ethnicity and the diversity it brings is something we celebrate only and not use as a tool to divide us.
       
    6. You know? I think standards of beauty and racism could be interlinked, however, standards of beauty are always changing, like so many others have said. I'm a redhead. I grew up with cartoons that NEVER showed redhead girls or princesses. Then Ariel came around, and she was the only redhead with a tiny waist and little boobs that changed everything about herself for a man- not exactly a good role model for a little girl. Even now, I read in Cosmo how red hair makes you look "old" and "outdated". Wow, thanks guys. Red hair is one of those standards of beauty- sometimes its desirable (socially), sometimes its not. The fact of the matter is that it is extremely hard to maintain dyed red hair, which may explain why the beauty mags aren't in love with it.

      As a child, I had dolls in all sorts of hair colors and skin tones and I loved each and everyone of them equally. My own dolls have completely random hair colors and eye colors, but I'm vain so I like them to each have a set of red hair and either green or blue eyes. I really doubt dolls are racist, and I really doubt the companies that produce them have racist motives. If you want to put green eyes in your dark skinned doll, go for it. Do what you think fits the doll, the character, and your own personal ideals of beauty.

      Not exactly doll-related but it could be, in regards to preferring pale skinned dolls over darker skinned dolls:
      I recommend taking the tests from the Harvard Studies site. It works on your automated to responses to discover whether you have an inherent preference for light skin or dark skin, and tons of other interesting things. It's free to join/participate in the study and completely anonymous. They also show you interesting trends regarding the results of the tests after you've completed each one.
      https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
       
    7. THIS.

      Emphasis mine.

      Also, THIS, as well as the rest of the post this is extracted from. (emphasis mine, again)

      Also ALL OF THIS! With Ezulie & now Lahela, I believe & accept that the skin tone & eye color combination are part of the aesthetics of the Elemental Guardian fantasy world. I mean, Efreet has golden eyes & fire for hair, can one really be concerned that his eyes are a wholly unnatural color when he has fire for hair!? LOL :)

      I think this is also a really good example of the fact that standards of beauty are a matter of cultural conditioning more than anything. As one learns about cultures outside of one's one, both contemporary & historical, one finds that standards of what is beautiful can vary widely, but that is part of the amazingness of the human experience.


      Thank you for all of this.

      I agree that there's probably a subconscious (for many) association of "doll = blue eyes". I think, though, that since dolls represent people, then the appearances of dolls can be reasonably perceived as a representation of what is considered beautiful in humans.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      There has been a lot of interesting discussion & commentary here. It seems like there's also some misunderstanding & confusion over what I'm saying, what I think, what I'm getting at, so I'll clarify a few things (more for the sake of promoting understanding than anything, since nothing is as anti-divisive as listening to different perspectives & trying to understand where people are coming from): I'm not saying that I think that humans with naturally tan or dark brown skin can never have light eyes or hair that is not brown-black. [Hey, Vanessa! Haaaay, Tyra! Howsit, Michael? Cutie patootie! And who can forget the famous Afghan Girl photograph from Nat'l Geographic?] I'm also not saying that dolls with these skin tones should only ever be represented this way, rather I'm asking why they are hardly ever represented with the eye & hair colors that are unequivocally most often seen with these skin tones.

      Also, the contrast between dark skin & light eyes is definitely fetching due to the contrast, if nothing else.

      There are a few examples of promo photos of tan or dark brown dolls with brown eyes. Denzel & Benny have been mentioned, & I do appreciate that almost every version of EID Asa has lovely brown eyes & I appreciate that NC Bichun is a handsome example of a tan resin doll with dark brown eyes. On the whole, though, these are rare examples in the world of humanoid (not fantasyland) tan or dark brown BJD's. At the same time, there's clearly some photoshop action going on here (yes, I'm saying that I don't really think Bichun was twirling a fireball at the end of a chain in that one pic ;)), so it would be very feasible to add a bit of digital glint to the eyes, if lack of "sparkle & pop" [a reasonable concern, BTW] is really an issue.

      I've noticed here on DoA that some dollkeepers who have identified themselves as being of African heritage have expressed both excitement over finally seeing BJD's that "look like me", as well as concern over whitewashing, etc--as when dolls with ebony skin are presented with light eyes (Ashanti). When Kamau was finally offered again last summer in RealSkin & Lt Brown resin, I remember one dollkeeper expressing frustration that it was exciting that this sculpt was available again, but that "now he's white". [vaguely related, this lt brown Kamau is among my favorites] All of this to say: I don't think the age of the target audience is an excuse or reason to be less thoughtful of how these dolls are presented; dollkeepers of all ages are aware of how dolls that "look like me" are presented, perceived & received.
       
    8. ....apparently my full post was too long, so here's the rest of it:


      I've noticed a few people commenting on the customisability of BJD's with an apparent implication that someone who feels their doll should have dark eyes should/could just change the eyes in this way when they buy/receive said doll. This is definitely true, but it seems to ignore that this is true in any direction, i.e., someone could (and probably will) buy the tan resin NC Bichun & give him light eyes.

      Ultimately, I recognise that many times a doll artist or photo stylist has a certain 'vision' when they're creating a doll or setting up a photoshoot. The end products of these are, effectively, a statement of "this is what I think is beautiful", so it's reasonable to perceive that a convention of nearly always presenting these skin tones with light eyes is the same as saying, "I can only think these skin tones are beautiful when paired with light eyes".

      Beyond all of this (as I mentioned before), since dolls are representations of people, then it's also reasonable to assume that the standards of beauty that apply to humans also apply to dolls. When we live in a time when major fashion magazines are digitally lightening the skin of beautiful women of color, it's completely relevant for all of us to look at what this means & why this is happening.

      YES! As I indicated before, acknowledging what is happening & talking about it shouldn't divide people, since it's the only way we're all really going to understand where each of us is coming from.
       
    9. I think this debate has covered most points, and most views considering the topic have been mature and respectful, and it would be pointless to continue debating the same material over and over again. To all those who have brought up well thought out, nicely presented facts, I thank you for your facts on the subject, and on standards of beauty especially. I do feel as if I've learned something, and there are many things on this debate that I will have to consider when evaluating my own ideals, morals, and bias.

      The only thing I truly disagree with, here, in this thread, now, is the fact that someone was claiming that users who pull out 'whitewashing' in argument about race and standards of beauty is like standing on some kind of soap box for ego pats. I felt this post was more of a personal attack than a method of which to conduct a debate, as the nature of debate is to support one's opinion with fact and to present it in a respectful way without trying to shame the other side to their knees, such as this user's post seemed to read. If this was not the user's intention, than I apologize for misreading, but perhaps better articulation of what they were trying to convey would be in order.

      What I have to say in my defense to that particular post is this (as I do feel it was directed at myself):

      I would rather be racially sensitive than racially ignorant. If one person (especially a person of a racial minority) views any source material, regardless of the medium, and finds it appropriating to their cultural values or racial image, it is enough to make me consider why they may be offended, and, if so, what effects racism may or may not have on the discussed material. It doesn't always make what is being said true, but I'd rather be considerate and err on the side of caution. What harm can thinking about it do?

      Again, do I think doll owners are racist for having dark skinned dolls with what are classically white features? Certainly not. I am not accusing ball jointed doll companies of the sort, either. But is the information regarding this sort of influence on something such as beauty standards something to consider? Yes, indeed.

      That's all I really have to say about that matter. I still value the rest of the post created by this user, but I thought it was something to point out.

      Because this is an ABJD forum, I do agree that race arguments, while valid, are better used directed in political communities, where these sorts of messages may actually have the opportunity to further something in governmental systems. If anybody is interested in some links, especially to some livejournal communities, I have a few to pass your way, if you're interested!

      And with that, I do believe I'll be bowing out of the discussion for now.

      Thanks again, starzzz, and to all the users who have contributed to this argument for the opportunity to discuss and share information. I really do think this kind of thing is important! :aheartbea

      (And to the person who mentioned something about genetics and Biology and all those good things, thank you very much for the correction. I never had the chance to take Biology beyond a certain level, and appreciate the new know-how. Thanks!)
       
    10. I think I get what you're saying here. When I was a kid (long ago!), there might be one or two "black" baby dolls in a sea of "white" ones-- and the black dolls were identical to the white ones, apart from the skin, eye and hair color. Same nose, mouth, hair texture, etc. There was no choice in the matter. Things are a bit different now, but not that different. Toy companies have a ways to go still until children can really have a doll that looks like them, although some companies (like the Pleasant Company, as mentioned earlier) are doing their part to remedy that.

      However, I find your statement interesting, especially the part about finding such dolls silly, because it implies that there is some all-encompassing, world-wide "black aesthetic." By this do you mean an ethnic African aesthetic? If so, does it include Somalis, Ethiopians and Egyptians? Because all of them are African by virtue of geography, yet their facial features may vary considerably from someone from, say, Ghana or Botswana. And what about dark-skinned people from Bangladesh or India or other equatorial countries? My former doctor is Bangladeshi and her skin is much darker than many of my "black" friends. And what about indigenous Australians? Are they also a part of the "black aesthetic"?

      Honestly, when I saw London, the new Soom IDealian51 (who appears to have sparked this debate), I thought of many of the Somali and Ethiopian immigrants that live in my neighborhood. Maybe people of that or another often dark skinned ethnicity were the inspiration for this doll.

      My point is that dark-skinned people come with all types of features. IMO a BJD company casting a mold in ebony without changing the features is very different from a toy company trying to reach a demographic of children by lazily changing skin and eye tone only.
       
    11. Well, In my opinion this is because they look 'preetier' and not all of them are like this, and also the lighter eyes color gives the doll some attraction separate of the face or factions or even face up, or perhaps they don't realize that bright eyes with dark hair and skin isn't really something usual in real humans. After all, I won't be complaining about this (no, I'm not saying that you complain it) because most of the people will change the eyes/wig, and also I don't like ebony/tanned dolls.
       
    12. THANK YOU. I was finding the collapsing together of "black" or "dark-skinned" with "African-American" incredibly ethnocentric and racially insensitive, especially when referring to dolls that are not made by Americans. Except for the years I lived in the UK, where the black people I was most likely to meet were Afro-Carribean or Somali, the majority of black people I have interacted with all my life have been Aboriginal Australian, Torres-Strait Islander (or both) and/or from regions in this neck of the ocean. They look nothing like this mystical "real black person" aesthetic.

      As it happens, I have four cousins and an uncle who are Aboriginal Australian, and all who have blue eyes. I really hope no one would be insensitive or racist enough to tell them they look Caucasian or are not properly black because of it, or that they would look "more black" with dark contact lenses, or that anyone who finds them good looking is giving into Western racist standards of beauty. Because this is the uncomfortable feeling I am getting from this debate, that a certain, very culturally specific, definition of "black" is being wielded as a standard.

      Please don't get the idea I don't think this is a legitimate topic for discussion, or that racism doesn't happen. This is an interesting topic, and an important one.

      As for the dolls... I admit freely that I think dark tan resin with bright blue eyes is the single most beautiful combination of any resin and eyes out there. It took me ages to realise it wasn't really Cocori I was in love with - because the lighter resin ones left me cold - but the way the dark tan one was styled. There are a lot of reasons it appeals to me, but I think the simplest is the same reason I like ice white bride dresses best on black brides (wedding dresses are my other hobby) - the cool brightness of the eyes/satin glowing against the resin/skin, and the contrast, makes the dark brown look particularly warm and lovely.

      Dark tan is generally very expensive, for good practical reasons. So when dark tan dolls are photographed and advertised, the resin color is something that is showcased as a feature that justifies the higher cost. I suspect that, rather than trying to make the dolls look more Caucasian, or implying thaat humans with blue eyes are more attractive, they are given eye choices that contrast with the color of the resin and show off its beauty to best advantage.

      My dark tan girl was destined to have green eyes because, well, she's Anthy Himemiya. But I have to admit when she was last assembled, she'd borrowed blue eyes for a bit.

      As for realism... well, lots of people not into anime will point Sailormoon out as an example of "Japanese people think Caucasians look better because she is blonde with blue eyes." When you ask them which racial group Chibiusa's colouring represents, they usually can't answer... There is a level of stylisation with anime and dolls that is not necessarily intended to represent human racial groups.
       
    13. I'm Caucasian, and I'm a classic winter (pale skin, dark hair), and I find the brown hair/brown eye combo boring, too. I think it's somewhat rare that I come upon a person with 'striking' green or blue eyes. I especially like blond hair for my doll because I think blond hair is very pretty, as are bright blue eyes. I also like green eyes. I'm really in no rush to have a doll with brown hair or brown eyes.

      I've also seen people with darker skin having blond hair and bright blue or green eyes, so those combination are possible in nature. I think they picture dark dolls with such light eyes because it seems "exotic"; while you do see that naturally happening, it's still rare and somewhat unexpected.
       
    14. Exactly my thoughts. :)
       
    15. I think this is a very interesting topic. Truth be told, I never noticed it until now. I have wondered about our standards of beauty being imposed on the dolls, but I didn't think about it to a racial extent. I've noticed there is a lack of dark skinned dolls, but I also knew that the dark skin resin used to go green after sun exposure, so I just assumed it was more of a hesitant buy.

      Anyways, I don't think it's impossible to completely ignore the fact that what we find attractive is very socially constructed. I've heard about the studies done with the 'light-skinned doll being more attractive than the dark-skinned doll', and it's a very unfortunate fact that it's prominent in our society. I take a look at my rp characters (who I base dolls on), and most do have light skin and blue eyes. Funny enough, the very few that I have who are dark-skinned have dark eyes except one girl who has grey and I don't remember why.

      I've often gotten into deep discussions with rp-friends about our standards of beauty. One of my friends loves people who look unique. She also holds dark-skin in a very high regard to beauty, and I believe that if she was into the BJD hobby, she would have a dark-skinned doll. I can't say what color of eyes he or she would have, but because she likes 'unique' factors, I assume a light colored eye for that purpose. (For reference, she is blonde haired and blue eyed with fair skin.)

      I also have found that standards of beauty differ greatly sometimes from person to person. There have been many times I have found someone (or even a doll) pretty or attractive when a friend has been like: "uh, really?" and vice versa. Given the fact a majority of my friends live near me, have similar cultural backgrounds, and are of the same ethnicity, it's kind of odd that we value different things.

      Uh... I'm kind of losing my point here, but I guess that whether or not a doll was marketed with dark skin and light eyes- it wouldn't deter or encourage me to buy it. Most companies send the eyes at random, anyways, so I don't pay too much attention to them in promotional shots unless it's for a full-set doll (in which case it becomes important to me I like the whole package). Should they be forced to be ethnically correct? No. It's a doll they designed. If we want it and want to dress it differently, we have that right. That's the awesome thing about BJDs.
       
    16. I think of these dolls as fantasy creatures, even the ones that are meant to be humans, so it doesn't bother me to see color combinations that are unusual or unlikely in real life. More and more in my urban neighborhood, I see children whose parents are different ethnicities and they often look a little like both their parents. If I didn't know who their parents are, I might not be able to guess their race. If people are so very unique, I don't see why dolls should have to be stereotypes either. My Cocori, by the way, has green/hazel eyes because she looks great in them and I have invented a Creole character for her.
       
    17. Dolls represent people. Therefore how they are represented absolutely reflects things about how people think about people, and are worthy of examination because of that.

      I agree with the danger of equating whitewashing in NA culture with Asian culture. In Japanese culture, at least, some aspects of Caucasian appearance are valued, but as pointed out some of those are coincidental as pale skin has long, long been valued, and any rarity like double-fold eyelids is also going to stand out. Ganguro is not only an outdated trend, it's a very fringe thing, so it's not a very good example; it also ties into Japanese notions of tanned girls being "loose". The white folks Japanese people generally seem to find attractive doesn't always coincide with who would be considered attractive over here, and vice-versa. It's been popular over the past several years for young Japanese people to try to look African-American, actually: tanning (the non-orange way), putting in cornrows, choosing hiphop-related fashion, stuff like that.

      What Japanese, Korean, and Chinese sculptors and stylists are going to find interesting is bound to be different -- I remember being asked why we have eye colour listed on drivers licences in Canada, which is how I learned they don't list that on Japanese ones. Hair colour and eye colour is something I think BJD companies play with on all skintones because it's someplace they can do things differently than what they see every day. And honestly, most BJDs aren't reallllly white. The big eyes-small mouth aesthetic is still widespread, even if the doll itself is intended to be white.

      It's highly problematic to apply a "western" notion of race here, as the people creating and styling these dolls are not only running into practical issues like what photographs well, but also don't have a history of African slavery, don't have multiculturalism, and don't run into issues of cultural sensitivity nearly as often as people in say, Canada, the US, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc. On more than one occasion I've seen blackface done in Japan (argggggghhhh *skin crawls*).

      On a personal note, I have blue eyes and mousy hair (honestly couldn't tell you if it's actually blonde or brown . . .). The vast majority of my dolls have brown eyes, and I have to be physically restrained from giving most of them black hair :sweat. While I can certainly see why people would be happy to see dolls that looked something like them at last, I do NOT want mine to resemble me AT ALL.
       
    18. Interesting points. I can't say I agree with all of them, and sometimes I do wonder the extent to which we reach for objects of artistic expression that echo the reality of our lives. In no particular order--and there's plenty left unaddressed here--my musings:

      Dolls are rarely replicas of reality. They are transformations, or perhaps transpositions. For many, they can be wish fulfillment of longing or fantasy. A debate in this subforum grapples with a related perspective.

      I think what we see in these dolls is possibility, and we articulate that as each of us defines it individually. Some of the most compelling dolls on this forum (some of the Gallery threads with the most comments) have very little to do with basic levels of human realism and standards of beauty, but reach for abstractions of human experience. The most obvious example are dolls with mouths and eyes sewn shut, third eyes, etc. And then there are the plethora of pointy-eared creations. Is colour material to that abstraction of experience? Sometimes. Are individuals racist? Sure (sadly). Are individuals creatively inspired? Sure? Are they shaped by their cultural context? By a predisposition for conformity? The exotic? A sensitivity to what they aren't? Absolutely.

      I have a terribly hard time getting on board with the notion of Asian companies shaping their aesthetic (much less their business practices) to appeal or cater to a non-Asian audience. This hobby did not begin in western countries, it did not take off like wildfire in western countries.

      Before there were tan or ebony (or even blue or pink or purple or grey) dolls for sale, you could choose from "normal" and "white" (and the variations among those two, as Pic Requests reveals, were hardly "standard"). There are old threads on the "racist" leanings portrayed in this and earnest pleas to correct that. When Iple essentially broke the "realistic" colour barrier, they were lauded. But I genuinely wonder how many people who pushed for these skin parallels actually purchased these more realistic dolls? (I not being flip.) How many people of colour actually purchase dolls of colour? Are we truly drawn only to dolls that are mirrors of some abstract we call "standard"?

      What are the standards for beauty? Can we even agree on them? Whose standards of beauty are we specifically talking about? Is this beautiful? This? Perhaps this? Or even this? This? Is this realism to a Japanese person? (Not a thing disparaging meant in any of these choices!!)

      And last of all, some of the observations and statements in this thread made me think of one of my favourited YouTube videos that bears a little on the subject. It's simplistic, it isn't about dolls but rather makes an anime connection to some of these issues ... but the anime aesthetic was the original inspiration for this hobby. Anime may be the last thing that interests some of us, but it's been a mover and shaper in this corner of the doll world. (If you watch, be prepared to hit the pause button ... occasionally the text flies by a little fast.)

      At the very least, it offers superficial commentary on the extent to which Asian artists and companies are trying to appeal to western consumers.

      [video=youtube;JKTvFhRbBt8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKTvFhRbBt8[/video]
      (I had to click this twice to get it to play here ... just in case: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKTvFhRbBt8)
       
    19. Actually white skin have nothing to do with caucasians. It was a valued trade mark of luxery in old times (and in some places today) It's verry simple, if you are poor( or not extremly wealthy) you most lightley had to do work outside, and then you got a tan. However if you have alot of money you could pay other people to do the work for you and therefor stay inside and keep your pale skintone.

      I think the idea of beauty differs between nations, culture and personal preference. A goth and lolita will probably not agree on what is beautifull, and that is in my eye's great. Just look at all the variasions on the diffrent molds of heads in this hobby. You can have the same head, but hundred diffrent styles.

      And on the hole skin-eye-hair-color debate....I have a reletive that married a woman from africa (dark skinned) and their son have gotten a little from both worlds, he got he's mothers dark skin and eyes and our family trait...bright red hair
       
    20. I've seen a few black people with blue eyes, there's a beautiful baby on YouTube and then there's UK Big Brother winner Brian Belo

      [​IMG]

      As to Lahela, ATM I'm only interested in her for her clothes, I'm not really interested in a new EID as of yet (though I'm digging her tattoos).
      Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 'light brown' shown in her pics lighter than normal? She's certainly lighter than the light brown Cocori's I've seen in the gallery