the Human Race(s), standards of beauty, & the BJD hobby

With regard to Teruchan's post about the issues of perception of black and whites, I would like to point out that it is not global. It's not an issue in Asia, and more specifically, especially not in Japan, China and Korea, where these doll companies come from. Colonisation was not an issue, at least not by European powers.

If we are discussing Asian BJD companies and how they choose to style their 'black' dolls, I would have to strenuously point out that whatever racial issues anyone might perceive are probably not there. I've been to all three of these Asian countries, and it was rare to see people of a darker skin tone, much less anyone with actual African features. If anything, the stylists for these 'black' dolls were probably just influenced by Western pop culture's styling of 'blacks' rather than trying to send out any messages or to further any racial agenda.

And I would like to say again that it's a strange and perplexing phenomenon to me that people link preferences in doll features to preferences in human features. I tried out the bias testing thing and found out, rather unsurprisingly, that I have a very strong bias toward paler skintones. My favourite dolls in my collection are my two milk-chocolate-tan dolls. That's because dolls are dolls and people are people. Why isn't it like that for more people?

 

I didn't say anywhere in the above paragraph that they were obligated to create dolls of minorities. I said that minorities have the right to be accurately represented.

I have also said in previous posts that racism is not always a factor in how a person may or may not view their doll or artwork, but can certainly influence artistic aesthetic while creating them, and is something that we as people (and artists) should be aware of, wether or not we are accurately or inaccurately representing any person/place or thing in what we create, for whatever intention (even as simple a stylistic, fantasy choice). It does not mean we are obligated to do anything, wether or not we're artists. But the courteous thing (of any idividual) to do would be to consider the validity of how others may be affected by your actions, wether positive or negative, intentional or no, in regarding how an image is presented. This does not change no matter the age of your market group, from a marketing standpoint. As for the diversity of the market group of doll owners, it is not so small a target group that popular aesthetics are not considered when the sculpting of a new doll comes into play.


It is not always the case that racism is a cause of our product, or that dolls are racist. But those of any minority group may (not just of a racial minority) may feel misrepresented or undershown because of how we showcase our wares, and this may include dolls. It is ultimately up to the owner of an item, and/or artist who crafted it, to choose the stylistic choices of the things they own, and this would be not my first time articulating as such. It does not make one any better or worse a person, or artist, for creating items in the styles of their own minds.

(But awareness and consideration of others, and the blatant disregard of the the former and latter can, though the two subjects of artistic aesthetic and courtesy of others are not always cohesive or applicable to eachother.)

 

This is actually very interesting to me, and a really good point- so let me say this, instead of red hair, put brown skin in its place and you've pretty much got my childhood and young adulthood for that matter. I haven't really got any good black female role models, but that's okay for me- I've decided I'm going to be one. (I hope no one finds this offensive, I'm actually agreeing with the above post because we all have problems with what society tells us is beautiful! ^__^ )

(This isn't directed at anyone specifically!) On the subject of dolls and beauty, it's very much linked if you ask me- these dolls are definitely representative of at least *my* ideals, because when I get them I make them look as attractive in the way that I define attractiveness. I definitely love my 'normal' skinned dolls, they're just as beautiful as the tan ones, but none of them look like me. It's strange I think, because I feel odd carrying a doll that is my ideal, and yet is no where near what I could aspire to. Proportions aside, these dolls are representative of something in the human psyche, so you can't simply separate the two as many of us have pointed out.

 

Splynterhayde: I agree with most of what you’re saying, but you’re wrong about Cleopatra. In Egyptian art the Egyptian paint themselves as lighter more yellow then they paint there southern enemies the Nubians who they paint as brown.

As for Cleopatra she wasn’t even Egyptian. She was a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty. A decadent of one of Alexander the Great’s three generals that divided up his kingdom after his death.
So she was Macedonian, many of which where described as have blond hair and blue eyes. The Greek biographer Plutarch (ca. 45–120 AD) describes Alexander appearance as: “Alexander had light skin, blond hair, and melting blue eyes. A sweet natural fragrance came from his body, so strong that it perfumed his clothes”

Exactly what she looked has been lost. There are a few coins and statues, but no color paintings, but black hair and eyes with a Greek skin tone is most likely.

 

Ok, but what makes an accurate representation? And if minorities must be accurately represented what about all people? The reason I'm bringing this up, is because dolls aren't people -- they represent the human form, but they do not always do so in completely realistic way. Since they are artforms themselves, and creative liscense is often taken no matter the sculpt or skin tone, then that's not necessarily going to equate with what you or someone else feels is a realistic representation. I don't think this is a bad thing, or an intentional statement about race so much as it speaks to the amount of possibilities inherent in this particular medium.

But you obviously feel pretty strongly about this where you're arguing a particular view point, so what do you expect or want companies to do exactly?

Things like age do actually matter, because there are issues that are more specific to young children because of the way the relate to and play with dolls. As adults purchasing collectible dolls made in another country by people who are culturally quite different, we should be able to understand that they aren't necessarily going to make and market dolls like large Western companies might.

Again, we're not the primary market. Just because DoA has grown, doesn't mean that in the grand scheme of things we're all that big. That doesn't mean that we don't have any impact, but if a doll isn't going to sell well at home, it may not be worth putting into production. And their home and our home are really different places.

This is very true, but I also think that all people regardless of group need to think through their reactions sometimes. We feel things, and sometimes we have a darn good reason for those feelings, but they may not have anything directly to do with the matter at hand. Does that make sense? It's easy to relate issues in one's own life to other things when it's not always appropriate to do so. That's when you get people looking for trouble that just flat out isn't there, and that's not the fault of a doll company, artist etc., so again, what do you expect them to do about it? At some point as adults we have to take control of our feelings instead of just reacting.

I agree completely, but it's important to be able to differentiate between disregard for others or rudeness and someone just following their own sense of style. In the case of the styling in promo pics that brought this topic up, I just can't see how it's anything but following their own stylistic fancy.

 

In regards to Taco's point, I have to say, I'm 20 years old and I still have these issues, and I'm not alone in it. I want to see my features represented as beautiful just the way they are, and that is not wrong or asking too much frankly. You can find a doll that accurately resembles a Caucasian person on nearly every website. It is not the same for any other race besides Asians - and that's not to say that it's wrong, but just that if Iplehouse is going to start this, then it'd be nice to see them represented the way everything else is- I think that's essentially what we're saying. Buying anything that's meant to represent a human creates these issues in some way at least, because there is no 'raceless' human- even though race is not biological. Amazing isn't it? It's become such a deep rooted thing we oftentimes don't even think it applies to ourselves. These things are connected though- how can they not be? People always seem to think that when a minority is upset about something, their either being militant or oversensitive, and that's just another product of what we're talking about here. As a black girl, (and not a particularly race-obsessed one at that) I still have to say that being black has affected nearly every single aspect of my life, from how I'm treated at school, in stores, and when I go out to how I'm treated by every one I meet, to what I buy and where I travel to- how hard do you think I'd find it living in Japan for example? I'd love to try it, but they stare at white people, so what would they do to me? See what I mean? It really does creep into everything- and no, I'm not speaking from a purely american standpoint either- I was born in Britain and have spent a significant amount of time there. My relatives are Nigerian as well, so I know a little about that too, and it's generally the same where ever you go. No offense, but try that on for size and then tell me that it's not related.

As for leXis' point, I did mention that Asian countries had had limited contact with Europeans and Blacks in my post- you can double check if you like but what I meant is that actually, the legacy of colonialism is still being spread around the globe by our media- which if I am correct is exported to nearly everywhere- and certainly to Asian countries. When their only contact with blacks is through the media, exactly what do you think that does? I am not stereotypical, and I know many that aren't but even here that warps people's view of us. What I'm asking is for people to just accept the fact that these dolls are linked to our perceptions of fantastical beauty etc, and black is not a fantasy for most people. Black features with the common brown eyes and hair are considered exactly that - common. Regardless of what the Asian aesthetic is, people get their dolls and stick blue eyes in and blond hair on and that makes it somehow better- more fantasy. I think what I'm asking at least, is why aren't brown eyes and dark skin fantasy? For white people, you don't have the brown skin and you may not have the brown eyes, so being as how it's out of the norm for many of you, why isn't that fantasy? I think I just want people to accept the fact that our features are not considered glamorous or ethereal or anything, and try to understand what that does to a person living in the 'modern' world- it hurts, plain and simple. And I have a right to be hurt by it, as any of you who have had people prefer blonde over brunette or tell you that your freckles are ugly- put yourselves in my place and exchange your hair or your freckles for brown skin- understand that and then we'll talk.

 

I agree that it is not wrong or asking too much to want to see your (or anyone else's) features represented as beautiful just the way they are. But your claim that doll companies represent Caucasians and Asians accurately, but not other ethnicities/races isn't borne out by the evidence.

For instance, Alice in Labyrinth's Aya is clearly meant to be a Japanese girl, but she has intensely blue eyes. Elfdoll's Mir has blue grey eyes. The same is true for Iplehouse's Special Edition Harin, who is dressed in traditional Korean garments, and full set Ryushin has pink. And while swan lake Lt. Cocori has blue eyes, swan lake white Freezia has pink. None of these are an accurate representation, regardless of skin color or ethnicity!

It's true that most of the African-American featured dolls on the Iplehouse site have non-brown eyes, but some do have brown eyes. Check out SE Denzel, SE Benny, Lt. Aaron, Basic and Hiphop Cocori, Dk. Cocori and Lt. Aaron.

Iplehouse has led the way in representing a diversity of facial features. They should be lauded for those efforts, IMO. But as far as them going "all the way" because they started this-- that's not the way business works. It's all supply and demand. So if you want to see more dolls represented with stereotypical combinations of skin tone, hair color and eye color the answer is to buy dolls that look that way in their sales pictures. Money talks. Loudly. Iplehouse is going to make more of the dolls that sell. And other companies will jump on the bandwagon once they see what people really want.

And if that's NOT what other people want, an opportunity exists to make these dolls yourself.

As for your other comment:

Wow. Somehow you presume to know what white people think-- that brown skin and brown eyes are not a fantasy. So let me tell you... as a child I used to pray for dark skin and eyes. I'd heard that babies' eyes can change color, so I thought it might happen to me if I prayed hard enough. (I was a really religious kid) Even now, if I could have dark skin, I'd take it, knowing full well the baggage it carries with it. instead I have skin cancer and wrinkles to look forward to. So yeah, you have a right to be hurt, but I hope you realize that not every white person thinks black is ugly. Some of us find black skin beautiful. And every other color too, for that matter.

 

I do not find African features glamourous, ethereal or anything. I'm sorry that you are hurt by this. However, it does not mean that I value African featured people any less than any other human being. I think the point I'm trying to bring across is that external appearance should not matter so much? There will always be differences in what people find attractive. There's no good to be had feeling hurt over another culture's aesthetic preferences, especially if it's a culture so far removed from yours, with so little contact between the two.

However, the fact that Iplehouse is making African featured dolls means that they do think that African features are beautiful. And when I think 'features', I'm thinking about facial features, without eyes, without hair, without makeup. Do remember also that I'm sure Koreans find that hair and eye colours are very easily changeable, considering that I do order many of my coloured contact lenses from Korea, and they probably wouldn't find changing hair and eye colours changing the 'features' of a doll? I'm sure even you will agree that their African-featured sculpts look nothing but African, no matter the hair or eye colour?

 

I'll understand that when people with your features stop being successful fashion models and being referred to as "exotic" and being admired for such. People find your features beautiful. Stop making it sound like nobody does. Maybe nobody around you does, but it's not a completely universal mentality. You don't think white people like dark skin? The last thing I want is to date a guy that looks like my plaster-white self. My pastey white ginger of a friend would buy every Ebony doll Iple has ever offered if only she could afford to because she loves the aesthetics. She was put off by the fact that one of the Harry Potter characters was portrayed by a freckle-faced ginger in the movies, when she very easily could have been a black girl based on Rowling's vague descriptions of her. It does happen. Probably more often than you find dark-skinned people with light eyes. But since people on average tend to appreciate that which looks more like them, if you're surrounded by whiteys, then, yeah, they're probably going to prefer other Caucasian aesthetics to yours, just like most people of other races want aesthetics that resemble their own. Are they racist for it?

I'm sorry you don't feel pretty, because you are. Getting upset over what a doll company finds beautiful just sounds petty. These dolls are linked to their sculptors' perception of beauty. I've seen some very ugly (my opinion) sculpts that emulate no historical nor cultural beauty trends whatsoever, and even defy laws of anatomy. And most doll companies give their dolls unnaturally large eyes. Are they bigoted against the human facial structure as a whole? I hardly think so. It's just what they like being built into their artistic style.

 

Except that you don't find abjds that are accurate reprentations of Caucasian -- unless there is some different skin tone involved, radically different sculpting or they mention otherwise, then it's safe to assume that these dolls are meant to be Asians -- that's where they come from after all. These dolls are not intended to be Caucasian most of the time. Because many are very stylized, they can easily be other things, but that doesn't mean that that's how doll companies and Asian bjd fans think of them. And many are not depicted realistically either -- how many lighter skinned dolls do you see with fantasy hair and eye colors? I'll tell you now that there are lots. Secondly, while I understand the desire to have a doll that looks like you and that you can relate to in that way, these are Asian companies. It's not wrong to want these things, but you have to keep in mind what you're asking of whom. If people ask for more ethnic specific sculpts and support this with their $$$ then there is always the possibility that there will be more, but it makes sense that many of the dolls being made reflect the population of their primary market more than people in other places -- and considering that a lot of fantasy creeps in there, it's going to most likely creep into the dark skinned dolls too.

I'm not denying that you and others have experienced unpleasant things because of racial issues, nor have I ever said they don't exist or that they don't affect people. However, that does not mean that every time something comes up, that it is all about race. I'm sorry, but I still don't see how this automatically relates to Asia doll companies, since you don't actually know how they feel about you or others that are not like them -- you'd be merely making assumptions based on bad experiences in other places. I understand that all of this effects how you see the world, and the things that you want, but that doesn't necessarily extend to everybody else. It's also wrong to accuse individuals that you don't know of racial bias with no evidence to the contrary.

I'm not getting the issue here -- individuals find all different kinds of things beautiful. This can vary by culture and vastly by individual. What one person considers common is really unique to someone else. I don't think you can really speak for 'most people'.

For some people, dark skin and dark eyes are a fantasy, for others it's dark skin and light eyes, or white skin and dark eyes, or purple eyes and pink hair. You can't stand here and tell people what they think is pretty. Also, when it comes to beauty, people will have preferences -- they shouldn't be rude about it -- but they will have them. It's not always racially motivated, it's an individual thing, like I prefer skinny guys over guys with a lot of muscle, and if I could choose a different hair color for myself it would be red, and I like large noses etc etc. Not all these things line up with what someone else finds attractive. That's just the way things are with humans -- which is probably good, or only a very tiny portion of the population would ever date and marry each other However, to assume that if someone isn't black, that they automatically won't find your skin/eye color attractive is again a big assumption that you shouldn't be making. People are all different. White people aren't all the same and don't all have the same preferences either.

 

Iplehouse freely acknowledges that their sculptor uses actors and people from popular culture as a starting point for the sculpt (e.g. Brad Pitt and Luo) and last night on American Idol Rihanna's hair was a vivid shade of red. There's a magazine on currently on the stands with a black cover model with an equally vivid shade of red. Two weeks ago Fantasia sang on American Idol and she now has blond hair. My point for bringing this up is that I don't think you can expect to hold Asian companies to some higher standard than what they are seeing in the media.

 

I'm white, and I do consider the myriad variety of facial features and skin colors of the African continent intensely glamorous. My concern is: can I admire (and envy) without objectifying and exoticizing (if the latter is a real world)?

For instance, I would fall over dead with joy if Iplehouse released a series of the Orishas, all with distinctly Yoruban features; but would that be objectifying (and perhaps trivializing) a living religion (Ifa/Santeria/Candomble)?

 

I can understand your point, but I have to say, I personally find the "common" African look of dark skin, dark eyes, curly dark hair to be interesting- because to me, it isn't common. I grew up in a tiny village in rural England, and those kind of places are the most monocultural of the world. To give you an idea, I attended a school that catered to most of my county, and out of the 2500 students, maybe two or three were black. It was only when I moved to South-East London that I became used to a living in a multi-cultural area.
I also should point out that for me, it takes more than different racial characteristics to find a person attractive- to me, just as not all white people are attractive, not all black people are attractive too, and that goes for all races. It's just that I personally think people of different ethnicities to mine look more "interesting", because it's more unfamiliar to me (taking into account the very white area I grew up in). I daresay if I'd been brought up in a predominantely black, Asian, etc area, I wouldn't find that look quite so interesting, because I'd be more used to it. Just as beautiful, but more... commonplace, if that makes sense.

 

Another thing to remember is that in Asia they might view differently OR fail to recognize what some people consider "defining traits" of one race or another.... it's a matter of how traits are defined by your experience & surroundings. If you're viewing an export, out of context, those traits are sorta judged in a vacuum.

Does anybody remember that news blurb about how a poll of international celebrities was passed around somewhere in China.... sometplace relatively sheltered from American media... It showed unlabelled pictures of Oprah Winfrey & Tyra Banks & other American media exports, and asked the respondents to guess the race of each face....? It turned out they didn't/couldn't identify the majority of what we label 'black celebrities' as 'black'-- in fact, Oprah was most often guessed-at as Indian. Because she doesn't have dark-brown skin or short kinky hair or otherwise look like the Africans that these respondents recognized, they didn't know WHAT race she was supposed to be. I wish for the life of me I could find that article, because that startled me at first... but then later it made sense.

The thing I've always liked about Iples' mature sculpts is that they can be so ethnically-ambiguous. Change their skincolor, hairstyle, eyecolor, and the same sculpt can go from English to Arabian to Native American. That article made more sense to me as soon as I paired it with this fact.

 

For your consideration, also an article on why exoticism is a form of racism. This article is even about 'asian' culture, making it furthermore relevant to our discussion.

By the way, discounting a minority's opinion on racism regarding beauty standards based on, 'I'd believe you if you weren't super models, too" is incredibly disrespectful and ignorant. A man can't tell a woman he isn't being sexist if she feels offended. A heterosexual can't tell a homosexual they aren't being homophobic if they use the slur 'faggot' and justify it with the fact their homosexual friends are okay with it. A transgendered woman who tells a cisgendered person they are being transphobic because you don't consider her a woman until she has had surgery works in the same regard.

Why?

Because the majority is not the minority. A majority will not have to experience the same kind of discrimination that a particular minority group will because they cannot fit in that person's shoes. If one black woman feels like something is racist, then it is racist, whether or not the cause was innocent, subtle, sub-conscious, or intended. The fact that there are 'black supermodels' who are considered beautiful does not change the fact that at almost every escort agency across North America, there is an average of ten to one calls for a blonde, white girl favoured over a minority escort. Nor does it change the fact that the minority escort will get paid on average, unless she is militant about her fees, half the amount a white escort will receive.

Sure! One in ten men think the minority escort has beautiful features, but that doesn't change the fact that he will expect her services to cost less. Be realistic. There are black models, and then there a majority of ethnic levels living below the poverty line because of lack of education, a white induced system, and sub-conscious racism.

That's like saying you'll believe there's sexism when you see less women in political office, never mind the fact that on average, a woman will get paid 33% lower than her male colleagues.

edit: And for those of you wondering why I even bring up escorts, I bring them up because sex industries capitalize on standards of beauty, much like our hobby does. If you wonder where I get my facts from regarding escorts, I have been associated with escort agencies, and am a political advocate for sex worker activist groups. My use of the term 'minority escort' is not inclusive to those of black descent, either, but to those of Aboriginal background, Chinese, and Persian as delegated in my socio-economic area.

 

I honestly want to make sure I understand what you're saying right here. Do you mean somebody saying something that a reasonable person could find offensive but doing so without meaning to, they are still at fault? Or do you mean at anytime somebody is offended no matter how innocuous the comment the comment maker is automatically at fault simply because they are not part of that group? The reason I'm asking is because the two scenarios are so very very different. The first is completely understandable, the second is very problematic for what should be obvious reasons.

I also feel that this is straying further and further away from abjds -- there are lots of very real issues in the world regarding race -- I don't think anybody has denied this, but that doesn't mean it has a whole lot to do with doll promo pics.

 

So, what you are essentially saying is that because someone in the US is upset that Iplehouse dare use what, pink coloured eyes in pictures of one of their ebony skinned dolls that they are immediately racist? Pink eyes don't occur naturally in humans of any skin tone. Korea does not have the same issues with race that America does and it is ridiculous to expect them to view race in the same way we would here. It is also a trait of the doll that is easily changeable and one that is intended to be customized by the owner. If you do not like pink eyed, ebony skinned dolls, don't buy them or buy brown eyes for your doll. It really is that simple.

I have brown eyes. It is not a sign of bitter self loathing, but personal preference - I think brown eyes in dolls are boring and generally don't translate well into any of the eye mediums, and it's a colour that rarely photographs well. I don't blame them for not using them when you want maximum visual impact in sales threads. I don't generally find brown eyes in humans all that attractive either, and since it is the eye colour of a majority of Asians, it takes on the air of the commonplace there. Korea is especially known for coloured contact lenses being all the rage so it doesn't really surprise me they like going with colours other than brown.

These are dolls meant for adults. My mind boggles at projecting your own self identity issues at this age onto a doll maker and ascribing bad motives to them.

 

Even without meaning to doesn't change the fact that the insult still happened. What changes is that likely, the offending person who didn't mean to, upon correction, will not repeat the behaviour in the future because they were not aware of how their action impacted a minority. Saying something 'accidentally' racist doesn't make it any less racist. It just means that is was a little more well intentioned, but still requires correction. We shouldn't make excuses for wrong behaviour. Just realize when we were wrong, and fix it.

Conversely, just to clarify, since you may have read it the wrong way, if a minority were to offend a minority of the same group, it's still offensive behaviour and should be corrected. Every situation is different, yes, and does not excuse any one group (even a minority) from an act, but particular care should be given that a majority (who has historically repressed a minority), who will never have to be repressed in the way the minority they are offending has, is sensitive to that minority.

That's what I'm saying.

And as far as promotional pictures for dolls go, if standards of beauty play into it, with racial 'exoticism' as the topic of conversation, then racism goes in hand with the discussion. It may be drawn further and further into reality, as far as the argument is willing to go, then the information presented should not be discounted.

edit: I've also stated several times throughout this entire discussion that a doll maker does not have to have bad motives, or may not have intended anything but artistic expression at all. I am not accusing the companies of blanketed racism. I am bringing racism as a prospect to be considered in a societal view in regards to standards of beauty, that may or may not be reflected in dolls. The fact that I argue racism, now, does not change that.

 

Ok, so you mean something that was meant accidentally but would reasonably be construed as racist? That I do agree with. The way the statement was phrased I wasn't sure if you meant unintentional racist language, or general language (that would reasonably not be construed as being racist) that for some reason bothered somebody else. Thanks for the clarification.

It depends on whether or not that's what's really happening. And that's the real problem -- you don't know. It is true that dark eyes are harder to photograph -- I discovered that first hand today. I have a pair of eyes (not brown but quite dark) that look lovely in person, but don't show up well in pics. As pretty as they are, I may have to end up changing them for that reason. Also, because someone finds light eyes + dark skin appealing, doesn't mean that it's due to something that could be considered racist. It could simply be "that color combo looks really nice." after trying several different eye colors, which honestly is the way that many people in general pic eye and hair colors for dolls -- especially since dolls are not constrained by DNA. And while some people like very realistic dolls, others prefer simply to follow their own fancy, and to label that as being racist isn't right.

What makes this even more difficult is the fact that there are already cultural differences between folks in Asia and folks in the Western part of the world, so you have to be even more careful about applying certain behaviors or motivations to doll companies as they may not really be as applicable. That's my big beef with this whole thing. When it comes to larger issues, I don't necessarily disagree with you -- it's when you try and apply it to these particular dolls that things fall apart for me. I can't speak for abjd makers and would not presume to make such serious accusations when there also many completely unoffensive reasons for choosing certain color combos in styling. The same thing happened with the last racism and bjds thread that came up awhile back. There was a lot of reading into people's motives even though there were many logical reasons (in that case it had to do with why there were so few dark skinned doll available) that had little to nothing to do with racism intentional or otherwise.

 

I can also agree with what you're saying, and see your point, Taco. But, I still think, especially when we don't know, to consider all possibilities. I don't doubt what you've written at all. But, especially when beauty standards are considered, racism can happen. It's important not to discount it, either. And it's important to remain sensitive to minorities (even companies would be wise to, as even from an economic standpoint, they could maximize their capital) and at least understand their views, and why they could see something as against themselves.

I most definitely don't think that, even if a collector has a black doll with blue eyes, that they're being racist. Or, the same could go for the artist behind a company's new doll. But in analyzing standards of beauty, race can be an aspect that shouldn't be cast by the wayside.