Thoughts on heteronormativity and doll 'cross-dressing' / the gender spectrum

It's no more full of rape & pedophilia than straight porn is-- or or mainstream cinema, mainstream TV, or romance novels. Ignorant people just like to look at the hardest-core sub-genres, & assume that they represent the whole. Following this model of reasoning, I would conclude that all mainstream TV shows contain nothing but rape of women, abuse of women, humiliation of women, making women look stupid and helpless, exploitation of teenaged girls, underage T&A, and frat-boys trying to make each other vomit.

 

It also no more full of rape and pedophilia than shoujo manga is. Seriously. Check out some Mayu Shinjo titles. They're published in mainstream magazines for teenaged girls. It is no more full of rape than the romance novel section of Barnes & Noble, and both of those genre are predominantly heterosexual relationships.

But it's not as cool to hate on mainstream shoujo manga in the doll world, but it is to hate yaoi. I can only assume people think it makes them sound smarter or that somehow makes their opinions more valid. Yaoi fangirls, after all, are incapable of intelligent thought and of course are completely unaware that their fantasy entertainment isn't fantasy and that all relationships in real life happen exactly the way they do in yaoi manga. /sarcasm

This hobby has a definite appeal to women in anime fandom who are a very strong presence online because of the similar aesthetics and ability to customize. It's no real surprise to me that a lot of the more vocal doll hobbyists are into more subversive, less mainstream ideas about gender and sexuality.

 

I take it you're referring to doll bodies rather than male human bodies? If not, I'd like to postulate that male human bodies may be even more diverse than female human bodies, but sadly this isn't reflected in the BJD culture where boy bodies tend to be rather homogenous. I for one would love to see a greater disparity of body shapes for boys as well as girls! For girl dolls, there are a couple of bodies out there that are more curvy (I'm thinking of the Sharmistha body), but where are the boy dolls with little pot-bellies, or moobs, or just general chubbiness? The chubbiest body I can think of is the Dollndoll body, but even that is really just a bit stocky.
Perhaps in order for people to embrace the actual reality of homosexuality, rather than idealised yaoi, it may be easier to have actual real-looking male bodies rather than just the beautiful androgynous "bishie" or the magnificent muscle-man stature of Iplehouse EIDs, which may help to pigeon-hole ideas about male homosexual roles? These ideas, after all, conform to unrealistic stereotypes and therefore may have a negative impact on people.
For example, I had a friend who was mad about yaoi. Loved it, watched it everyday, would converse with me frequently about her favourite yaoi couples and plots and characters. From her I learned about the "seme" and the "uke", and the various plot conventions and tropes that yaoi has a lot of. When I said to her, "Well, real homosexual relationships are unlikely to have a partner designated as the "uke" and another as the "seme", and actually a lot of relationships in yaoi manga and anime seem very destructive", she looked blank. It seemed she had never really considered yaoi from the standpoint of actual homosexual people and their relationships. All that she'd learnt about gay men, she'd learnt from yaoi. And so, to her, all gay men were "kawaii" and in some way made the object of what can only be described as a "yaoi-fangirl-gaze". Now, of course, most people who like yaoi may have lots of gay friends and understand the difference between fantasy and reality, but she'd never had that opportunity. And that, to me, seemed unhealthy.

 

Gender is not important in the dolly world! - is what I got out of being here all this time and observing. Because, if the real world were the same as the dolly world, the male population would be 5 times the population of females, and 90 percent of them would be gay. Whereas the majority of females would be straight. But it's ok! The 90 percent of men would just date each other, and then the 10 percent of straight men would date the straight females, and we have a happy, beautifully gay world.

;D

 

I am a post operative FTM, Im not the hyper masculine type and am bisexual - I like the diversity within the doll community for gender and sexuality. I have loved reading the comments so far in this debate, Im thrilled at the intelligence and knowledge of the subject here dollblue you are awesome.
I havent ever given a doll a back story or a gender mod etc, but I do enjoy seeing other peoples. I am not easily offended by other peoples depictions of 'tranny dolls' etc, this is the doll world and like yaoi they are not meant to be true to life depictions of human beings, as long as there is intelligence and awareness I find nothing wrong with the gender bending and sexuality of dolls.
I used to only own male dolls, I used to like dressing them to reflect a version of myself. After a while I became really disenchanted by the male form in doll sculpts, I always feel they are lacking or over compensating. I see so many male dolls with outrageous six packs or a complete torso of ribs. Then theres the genital issue! Im hoping lines like the Idealian will inspire other doll companies to take greater care in sculpting the male form.
I prefer female dolls, I like dressing them in feminine and neutral clothing, I think they are almost a projection of my female self. It gives me a chance to dress them how I would dress if I would have stayed female without actually staying female, if that makes any sense? I would have been uncomfortable personally dressing my male dolls in female clothing but I think thats because of my gender history.
I think dolls are a great way to explore our own feelings about our own gender and sexuality.

 

Oddly enough, it seems to me like the community here at DoA is a reflection of Western society as a whole when it comes to hetero/cisnormativity. Gee, how surprising! And as in the world at large, it's true that sometimes the more popular fictional representations of homosexuality (yaoi, yuri, shounen- and shoujo-ai) do nothing to combat hetero/cissexism, since they contribute to the invisibility of real gender and sexual minorities (aka GSM...it's a bit shorter than "LGBTQA etc etc etc people") by presenting unrealistic portrayals of gay relationships. But not everybody relies solely on a fictional representation to form their idea of GSM, and similarly there are people in the community whose doll characters or community actions (for example by not assuming the gender of a doll if there's any kind of ambiguity) challenge hetero/cisnormativity.

Regarding the realism of embodying a trans man, for example, in a standard-issue male doll body, I think doll owners need to choose what's important to them and what makes sense for their character. For some people, the standard male doll body will be the right choice, since their doll collection is about representing the character's essence - one of the great things about dolls is that they're not limited by the state of modern medical science or the reality of our world. A trans doll with a 'typical' body for the gender (s)he lives as is no less believable than a fairy doll or an anthro doll or all the blind dolls out there who have the second sight to guide them. On the other hand, I can certainly understand how some collectors would prefer to create trans dolls whose bodies reflect in some way the potential spectrum of trans bodies in the real world, especially in terms of portraying trans characters who choose to get minimal or no surgery (much more believable than a fairy doll, haha).

I'd love to see more (and more varied!) portrayals of trans* and queer characters, but I really believe in being the change you want to see in the hobby.

 

At the time I made my statement I hadn't taken into account the divergence of bodies, and even after that is taken into account I still find it irksome. Here is another reason why: I have once planned to take tools to a beautiful SD16 Volks bust for a "vampire" MtF, to render the body male. My reasoning was that the body ended up female in shape by means of a corset, and I was simply told not to because I should just get a male body. I have heard others tell someone else what to do with a doll and not to modify anyone's body and just short cut to the end result gender. I feel that in order to break free of some heteronormativity of gender issues manifested in dolls is the ability to represent these divergence of bodies. Many transgendered individuals have to undergo some sort of modification of their bodies. The statement that person X would just get a male to represent a FtM reminded me of this issue, and added to the reasons why I found this irksome. I apologize for any personal insult taken, I was just trying to point something out that I saw -- and possibly others along the same line. It takes a lot of unraveling to undo heteronormative thinking, and it is not best to be done with ruffled feathers but calm explanations.

I applaud you for coming out and expressing yourself openly. It gives us all a lot better perspective to hear from someone experienced in these matters, rather than second-hand knowledge or speculation.

 

1. Am I the only one thinking from a money standpoint? I might not be able to afford the doll's body plus the mods it would take to make the body look "right". So I simply buy the body that's the end result. It isn't anything against the transgendered community.

2. This seems to be a variation on a couple of debates: doll bodies not looking like actual human bodies (no moobs or paunches), and doll bodies promoting poor ideas (all females have perfectly perky breasts, all males have a six pack, etc). In both instances most people agree that they'd like to see more variations. But they also admit they like buying what's currently available because it represents the ultimate form of beauty. So we come to a standstill.

 

i severely dislike the term "yaoi." I really like stories that revolve around gay men or lesbian women, and I hate it when people tell me that because i enjoy that it means that i like "yaoi" and yuri." ... I don't even like Anime that much =\ There are some animes I like, but I don't really consider myself an "anime fan." I sometimes feel like "yaoi" and "yuri" are the only way people see gay and lesbian people in the anime community [please note, I say sometimes.]

In the doll community, however, I don't feel that way. I have seen a few things like that, but for the most part I find it to be more of a positive impact. It's nice to know that everyone is so accepting. It makes me feel like we're moving towards a better, more accepting world.

The only thing that does bother me is when the stories and dolls enage themselves in pedophilia relationships/ non-consensual relationships. THIS happens more often than your typical "yaoi/yuri" nonsense.

I'm an openly androgynous person. i do not like being male nor female. I personally adore how androgynous our dolls can be ^.^

I'm not entirely sure if this is what you were asking, but this is how I felt the question was directed. ^^;

 

Thank you, honestrabbit ^^ It is cool to see someone here who doesn't want to conform to the clichées, I admire your courage in this.

To be honest, I don't like the fact that there is the concept of gender at all. So I really love it that our dolls can be whatever we wish them to be - including even being from a completely different world, time, or scenario where gender norms are different, or non-existent.

 

Thank you for starting this thread, grimgoblin. It is a subject that is very close to my heart.

A while back, a film student came and filmed one of our London meets and interviewed the attendees to find out more about the hobby. After having asked us about what it is about BJDs that we like, he concluded that almost all of us considered ourselves to be outside the norm in some way, whether it be by gender identity, sexual orientation, membership of a minority youth culture or whatever. At the time this was a surprise. As time has gone on, I can see the proof everywhere. An example.

The latest estimate of the point prevalence of FTM transexuals in the UK is 18 per 100,000. I personally know of five UK-based transmen on this forum, including myself. So, even if we take the entire active membership of DoA of approximately 10,000, that is three times the national prevalence. And that is only counting the people I know about personally in the UK and pitting them against the international population of DoA. If we were to get a true count of the number of gender variant people on the forum and pit that against the international estimated prevalence, this would be even more conclusive.

I strongly suspect the same thing would happen if we estimated the prevalence of people with atypical sexual orientations. It is highly likely that the number would far exceed the expected population prevalence.

So, this is probably one reason why we enjoy creating dolls with atypical gender identities and sexual orientations. They represent us. Or they might be a medium for exploring these possibilities in a safe way for those who are uncertain .

By saying this, I am not denying that the femmy, gay boy doll phenomenon is an offshoot of yaoi genre. It very likely is for many people. I am just saying that it is almost certainly not the only reason for our apparent obsession with atypical sexual and gender roles.

The next question that comes up is, what is it about BJDs that is particularly appealling to those who fall outside the "norm"?

 

I really appreciate this post. I can see how these figures can begin to add up. A lot of "unusual" people are drawn to unusual hobbies, particularly if the hobby has the "impression" of this being the norm? I put them in quotes because it is argumentative that the idea of something being normal of abnormal is often the causes of social prejudices and is ultimately so problematic.

The idea of gender roles begins at a very early age, which is one reason why the population at large take it for granted that gender roles exist and that genders /are/ binary in the mass collective consciousness. Gender issues is a large, massive ball of wax. Merely trying to pry apart the problems the two major genders of the world, male and female, is difficult as it is, becoming only harder when things aren't so cut-and-dry.

Dolls have been representing the human form for hundreds, thousands of years. It is easy to understand why they would be used to express a breakage from ideas of binary gender existence and roles. It may even be therapeutic for some, while self-examining for others. I'd like to also bring up the fact that dolls are often used in cases of child abuse. The impact may not be fully known, but I think the relationship between dolls and humans could warrant further study.

Many of these debates are often trying to examine the relationship between dolls and their human counterparts, in an attempt to figure out what they mean to us and why we may be so drawn to them.

 

Me too. The book I'm writing is a lot like that. There's a lot of role-reversal and things like sexuality don't matter. I really wish the world was more like this. I never really understood why gender and sexuality were so important -- it's someones private life. In my honest opinion, I don't think that it's much of anyone elses business. That's the political side of it, anyway ^^

 

I once again agree with you.
too often when I log in on deviantart, the front page is full of yaoi pictures. a very popular pairing is basically, a adult looking demon guy with a 11-13 year old. and everyone is all "KAWAII!!!" "OMG this is hot. MOAR!! " it just looks so pedo IMO!
this is why I really came to dislike the yaoi fandom. nothing seems to be wrong with them! as long as it has two men together, it's hot!

there's a whole world between people who supports gay right and all and the yaoi fandom <.<

 

If nothing seems wrong to yaoi fandom, then I fail to see how they're not for gay rights? Your post seems to suggest you feel yaoi fangirls don't support gay rights.

If anything, it's creating a group of young people who see homosexuality and alternative life styles as something good and worth fighting for.

 

The yaoi fandom... is rather immature as a whole. And very loud. While there are plenty of fans of the genre who undoubtedly understand that it's mere fantasy, there's that vocal lot who just can't seem to differentiate between yaoi and real relationships, and it's that lot that becomes representative of all fans. So I don't like associating with the fandom. At all. But as I've mentioned, it can be a gateway to understanding GLBT issues, so I try not to hate on it too much. Also, yaoi as a genre gets kinda boring and repetitive after awhile...

And I would agree with MadamMauMau that these dolls allow us a safe medium to explore gender roles that we might not be able or want to in real life. But mostly I collect because they are pretty. ^_^

 

naaaah you got me wrong! my post just meant : there is something in between being a yaoi fangirl and being being homophonic.
my friends allll love yaoi and when I said I don't, they all got "OMG you're so homophobic!" ehm, what?
I support gay rights but I don't like homosexual porn *shrug* and even less when it's about rape and pedophillia >.>

to me there is a difference between "my OCs are a gay couple" and actual yaoi. because in the first case, the story can be interesting and realistic. while yaoi is indeed immature, loud and incredibly cheesy.

 

From my prospective (as a gay male)...I never understood this whole yaoi thing...and why so many girls/women are drawn to it. Honestly, it's a bit creepy to me. lol I'm always thinking...youre really a lesbian...just go for it instead of escaping into anime gay men. LOL
Characters who are feminine enough, in some cases, to pass for a woman but are still a man...so it's "okay".

I do agree, after really looking into yaoi and seeing the disturbing images of rape and child molestation that yaoi is NOT a representation of the overall gay male community and only subconsioiusly enforces steryotypes. YAOI DOES NOT EQUAL GAY!!! Yaoi is Yaoi period. Much like HENTAI DOES NOT EQUAL HETEROSEXUALITY!

I am happy to see a community that crosses into so many different sexual horizones...while some on the front may be "ignorant"...atleast there is an attempt. We all start out ignorant in many things, but we learn in different ways. I can respect this and at times appreciate the effort. Even if I'm rolling my eyes and saying...well no not really THIS is more like it...

As a previous poster said, atleast they are not bashing something they do not understand but are seemingly embrassing it...for what ever reasson.

Bottom line as far as M2F or F2M...I am not, so I can not speak to this, nor do I know anyone who is, so I can not speak to this. I know my limitations...I whish other board members would realize that even while sounding intelligent, if you have no personal experience or education (other than reading it online)...it is equally as ignorant as many yaoi fans...

 

sahoma, there are some rather decent yaoi works out there in addition to the cheese, and there are some 'my OCs are a gay couple' that are infinitely cheesy. In the end, yaoi as a genre is fantasy gay romance written by women for women, though it seems to have gotten rather negative connotations in some spheres thanks to those immature but extremely vocal fans. =_=

michaelmichael, not all yaoi characters look like girls, thank you very much, nor do all girls read them for extremely feminine men because they are closet lesbians. There is a theory that goes women enjoy slash/yaoi because there is no power difference in a male/male relationship as opposed to a male/female relationship, so they feel safer projecting onto the submissive partner. I personally just prefer not to have boobs shoved into my face while I'm enjoying my porn, thank you.

 

The lesbianisim was a joke...all be it, perhaps, a bad one...

I did not say that all yaoi characters where fem., as I said the dynamic in many featured yaoi have a masculine and fem. character.

Actually, I agree with a previous post that in yaoi heteronormative IS found in yaoi...a more femminine guy with a masculine guy both playing roles found in heterosexual relationships.

This is something of interest to me as I have, personaly, been in these relationships in RL (femminine/masculine).

And I go back to my ealier post of saying, there is much ignorance on the dynamics of homosexual relationships. In many long-term homosexual relationships...there IS a more dominant partner and a more submissive partner...I said many not all please note. Big spoon little spoon (if you know what I mean).

What I can say is that regardless of sexual orientation of the couple...I have found the ones that are a BALANCE of both partners are the most successful and loving I have seen...now...just to find my own. LMAO
This however is not as dramatic as would be needed to make money.